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Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

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Journeyman

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Tried that with airport security after 9/11, and two decades later I'm still not allowed to take a bottle of Evian through an airport.

The liquid restrictions actually came later, in 2006, in response to an attempt by terrorists to use liquids that react explosively to bring down a plane. For a short period, absolutely no hand luggage at all was allowed, before the current liquid restrictions came into force. I remember because I worked for London Underground at the time, and everything was enforced with no warning at all. It caused chaos as Heathrow was filled with abandoned luggage that people could no longer take with them.

But...yes. We're still stuck with it, and probably will be for all time.
 
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Journeyman

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It is interesting that several of the most vehement anti-maskers have their own car. As you suggest, let them use it:)

Yes, I have a car, but I'd still think this is wrong even if I didn't. In fact, I'd be even less happy, because I wouldn't have a way to avoid it.
 

AM9

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The liquid restrictions actually came later, in 2006, in response to an attempt by terrorists to use liquids that react explosively to bring down a plane. For a short period, absolutely no hand luggage at all was allowed, before the current liquid restrictions came into force. I remember because I worked for London Underground at the time, and everything was enforced with no warning at all. It caused chaos as Heathrow was filled with abandoned luggage that people could no longer take with them.

But...yes. We're still stuck with it, and probably will be for all time.
Although it's off-topic, as I made the comparison I'll close it with the information:
there are now x-ray methods of detecting whether liquid in bottles isn't what it says on the label, specifically targetted at the explosives that caused the ban. Some airports have invested in that equipment and accordingly allow bottles of liquid to be taken on board. Those that haven't yet still have to ban their carriage, (which is what should happen of course).
 
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Starmill

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If this is the scale of the reaction people have to the fundamentally harmless request to wear a face covering, which they won't even have to actually do themselves because they can use a car, then I worry about the way any of you have managed to cope with the far, far greater trials and harms that this virus has brought down on other people. Even understanding that face coverings actually restore your civil liberties by making it safer for everyone and thus allowing you to more go outside is apparently just too difficult. I find it hard to actually believe that you all have these sincerely held opinions.

I hate face wearing a face covering. But it's just not that big of a deal, and it's so obviously worth the shot. Why so much overwhelming self-centered complaining about this one policy!?
 

AM9

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... Airport security in its current guise is a temporary measure brought in to face a specific challenge. Nineteen years later, all the stupid rules with no basis in reality are still with us.

It's amazing how "temporary measures" don't ever quite seem to get abolished...
It's amazing how some terrorist threats still haven't been eliminated in nineteen years, (although the instances of them getting through is virtually zero now).
 

AM9

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If this is the scale of the reaction people have to the fundamentally harmless request to wear a face covering, which they won't even have to actually do themselves because they can use a car, then I worry about the way any of you have managed to cope with the far, far greater trials and harms that this virus has brought down on other people. Even understanding that face coverings actually restore your civil liberties by making it safer for everyone and thus allowing you to more go outside is apparently just too difficult. I find it hard to actually believe that you all have these sincerely held opinions.

I hate face wearing a face covering. But it's just not that big of a deal, and it's so obviously worth the shot. Why so much overwhelming self-centered complaining about this one policy!?
I suspect that many of the objectors are:
a) of an age that the experts have said are less likely to be infected​
and​
b) not in vulnerable or high-risk groups including B&ME​
In other words, 'not my problem'.
 

Journeyman

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If this is the scale of the reaction people have to the fundamentally harmless request to wear a face covering, which they won't even have to actually do themselves because they can use a car, then I worry about the way any of you have managed to cope with the far, far greater trials and harms that this virus has brought down on other people. Even understanding that face coverings actually restore your civil liberties by making it safer for everyone and thus allowing you to more go outside is apparently just too difficult. I find it hard to actually believe that you all have these sincerely held opinions.

I'm actually not scared of the virus at all. I think our response to it has been ridiculously heavy-handed and far more damaging. You don't "restore" civil liberties by taking others away. I'd understand making masks compulsory if there was sensible evidence and justification behind it, and there isn't, as far as I can tell.

I haven't had to do it because none of my household have had any of the symptoms, but if I thought there was the slightest possibility I had the virus, I'd isolate as required for 14 days. I certainly wouldn't drive 260 miles, unlike certain people I could mention.

This is rapidly turning into the new "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", and personally I don't want to live in a fearful world where everyone is expected to act like all other people are potentially lethal disease carriers - because it's nonsense.

The government have already admitted they over-egged the pudding with early lockdown information campaigns, because they didn't think people would comply, but they did. I've done what's been asked of me, at significant personal cost, and I think this is now a step too far.
 
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AM9

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I'm actually not scared of the virus at all. I think our response to it has been ridiculously heavy-handed and far more damaging. You don't "restore" civil liberties by taking others away. I'd understand making masks compulsory if there was sensible evidence and justification behind it, and there isn't, as far as I can tell.

This is rapidly turning into the new "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", and personally I don't want to live in a fearful world where everyone is expected to act like all other people are potentially lethal disease carriers - because it's nonsense.
Nope, still missing the point with those words,
I don't want to live in a fearful world where everyone is expected to act like all other people are potentially lethal disease carriers
I've highlighted the bit that you've got 180 out of phase. You, me and everbody else may be a carrier, none of us know so it is in everybody's interest that people take steps to prevent themselves spreading the virus. You never know, somebody else takes the responsibility seriously and wears a face covering even when it is uncomfortable, inconvenient and makes them look stupid, that might actually save your life. They are considering others' welfare, not themselves, do you not understand?
 

underbank

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I haven't had to do it because none of my household have had any of the symptoms, but if I thought there was the slightest possibility I had the virus, I'd isolate as required for 14 days. I certainly wouldn't drive 260 miles, unlike certain people I could mention.

How about all those who went to Cheltenham and Anfield who've admitted they still went despite having symptoms. That's the problem - some numpties will ignore perfectly simple/sensible precautions which is why we need more extreme and heavy handed measures.
 

Journeyman

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Nope, still missing the point with those words, I've highlighted the bit that you've got 180 out of phase. You, me and everbody else may be a carrier, none of us know so it is in everybody's interest that people take steps to prevent themselves spreading the virus. You never know, somebody else takes the responsibility seriously and wears a face covering even when it is uncomfortable, inconvenient and makes them look stupid, that might actually save your life. They are considering others' welfare, not themselves, do you not understand?

I stand by what I've said.

I also haven't been close to anyone outside my household for any length of time at all since this whole thing started, so the likelihood of me picking it up or spreading it is practically zero. I can live with that.
 

Journeyman

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How about all those who went to Cheltenham and Anfield who've admitted they still went despite having symptoms. That's the problem - some numpties will ignore perfectly simple/sensible precautions which is why we need more extreme and heavy handed measures.

I'd say making all public gatherings illegal is heavy-handed enough, thanks.
 

sjpowermac

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I'm actually not scared of the virus at all. I think our response to it has been ridiculously heavy-handed and far more damaging. You don't "restore" civil liberties by taking others away. I'd understand making masks compulsory if there was sensible evidence and justification behind it, and there isn't, as far as I can tell.

I haven't had to do it because none of my household have had any of the symptoms, but if I thought there was the slightest possibility I had the virus, I'd isolate as required for 14 days. I certainly wouldn't drive 260 miles, unlike certain people I could mention.

This is rapidly turning into the new "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", and personally I don't want to live in a fearful world where everyone is expected to act like all other people are potentially lethal disease carriers - because it's nonsense.
Would you still be anti-mask if use were linked with the Government ’COVID alert levels’?

We are currently on Level 4 so ‘transmission is high’. Wear a mask.

At Level 2 we have ‘transmission is low’. Don’t wear a mask.


What mitigation do you suggest is put in place on public transport or do you believe that we shouldn’t be doing anything at all to reduce the transmission of the virus. I’m genuinely interested to hear your solution.
 

Journeyman

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Would you still be anti-mask if their use were linked with the Government ’COVID alert levels’?

We are currently on Level 4 so ‘transmission is high’. Wear a mask.

At Level 2 we have ‘transmission is low’. Don’t wear a mask.

What mitigation do you suggest is put in place on public transport or do you believe that we shouldn’t be doing anything at all to reduce the transmission of the virus. I’m genuinely interested to hear your solution.

Yes, I'm opposed to compulsory use of masks in any and all circumstances. It's a matter of personal choice.

I've already stated that we need to move to a model that allows people to assess their own levels of risk and decide accordingly what they can or can't do.
 

AM9

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I stand by what I've said.

I also haven't been close to anyone outside my household for any length of time at all since this whole thing started, so the likelihood of me picking it up or spreading it is practically zero. I can live with that.
That's fair enough if you genuinely wont be travelling by public transport then you wont be posing a risk to others. So really, this mandating of face coverings doesn't affect you anyway.
Be careful though in case you do unexpectedly need to use buses or trains in an emergency, I'm sure that as an honest person, you wouldn't want to risk anybody else's wellbeing any more than your own, and you might be refused boarding.
 

sjpowermac

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Yes, I'm opposed to compulsory use of masks in any and all circumstances. It's a matter of personal choice.

I've already stated that we need to move to a model that allows people to assess their own levels of risk and decide accordingly what they can or can't do.
If you have symptoms of the virus, are you opposed to self isolating or do you believe that should also be a matter of personal choice?
 

Journeyman

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That's fair enough if you genuinely wont be travelling by public transport then you wont be posing a risk to others. So really, this mandating of face coverings doesn't affect you anyway.
Be careful though in case you do unexpectedly need to use buses or trains in an emergency, I'm sure that as an honest person, you wouldn't want to risk anybody else's wellbeing any more than your own, and you might be refused boarding.

If I have to use public transport, which I might, I'll comply because I'm not an ar*sehole, and it's not the fault of the staff that this has been imposed. I've been a front line public transport worker, so I know exactly what crap they have to deal with.

I still won't agree with it, though.
 

Skimpot flyer

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I am a key worker, and have been travelling to and from work in London. I use trains, and less frequently, the tube (which I tend to avoid in summer, due to the temperature in the carriages). I also use buses to / from my home station.
From my observations, we've gone from a situation where I was sometimes one of only three or four people on a 12-car train, to more recently, upwards of 40 people* in a 4-car Class 701 London Overground train, at off-peak times.
The vast majority of travellers I've seen have, unlike myself, not been wearing a face-covering. I wear one because it isn't a major difficulty to do so.
(Some 'wear' a mask, that's pulled down and resting under their chin, while the wearer talks loudly on a mobile phone and is doubtless projecting microdroplets into the surrounding air).
I cannot, however, understand the 'logic' of mandating the wearing of face-coverings on public transport if Dominic Cummings the government are not simultaneously mandating it for all public spaces. Surely, if lots of shops re-open on June 15, and the inevitable intermingled queues lead to 2m social distancing being compromised, then all the arguments for the alleged benefits of compulsory coverings must apply just as much to these potential transmission hotspots too ? Why has public transport been singled out ?
Don't misunderstand, I don't like the requirement for face-coverings, as I have my concerns that this will be something that will become permanent, just like the 'temporary' changes after 9/11, which are still with us nearly two decades later. I like even less the inconsistent and way-too-late introduction of these measures. By the time it comes in, the requirement for face-coverings will be 12 weeks to the day from when house arrest lockdown was introduced.

Horse.
Stable.
Bolted.

*the open nature of these trains makes it easy to see right down the length of the unit
 

Journeyman

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If you have symptoms of the virus, are you opposed to self isolating or do you believe that should also be a matter of personal choice?

I've already stated that if I thought there was even the slightest chance I had the virus, I would self-isolate immediately.
 

Bletchleyite

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Nope, still missing the point with those words, I've highlighted the bit that you've got 180 out of phase. You, me and everbody else may be a carrier, none of us know so it is in everybody's interest that people take steps to prevent themselves spreading the virus. You never know, somebody else takes the responsibility seriously and wears a face covering even when it is uncomfortable, inconvenient and makes them look stupid, that might actually save your life. They are considering others' welfare, not themselves, do you not understand?

Exactly.

And it needs to be enforced in law because the majority of people in the UK are not altruistic enough to accept a minor inconvenience for the greater good, unlike the Asian cultures.

Even past this, the idea of wearing one when you've got a miserable, sniffling cold would make life better for so many people, particularly asthmatics for whom a cold is really no fun at all. Maybe we should adopt that here too? Not in law, obviously, as colds don't generally kill people, but just, you know, to be nice to others?
 

Bletchleyite

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I've already stated that if I thought there was even the slightest chance I had the virus, I would self-isolate immediately.

Best self-isolate now, then, as there is that chance.

Or you could mitigate that risk by putting a face covering on in situations where you may come within 2m of others indoors, which is all that is being asked.
 

Journeyman

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Exactly.

And it needs to be enforced in law because the majority of people in the UK are not altruistic enough to accept a minor inconvenience for the greater good, unlike the Asian cultures.

Even past this, the idea of wearing one when you've got a miserable, sniffling cold would make life better for so many people, particularly asthmatics for whom a cold is really no fun at all. Maybe we should adopt that here too?

As I've stated, I've followed the government's guidelines and I will self-isolate if I need to. The rest is a step far too far, and I will oppose any compulsion that makes my access to services and spaces conditional on something that makes me extremely uncomfortable, that is being done for spurious reasons.

Edit: "actively resist" sounds like I'd break the law, which I won't, so I've changed it. I won't abuse the poor sods who have to enforce this nonsense.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I've stated, I've followed the government's guidelines and I will self-isolate if I need to. The rest is a step far too far, and I will actively resist any compulsion that makes my access to services and spaces conditional on something that makes me extremely uncomfortable, that is being done for spurious reasons.

The trouble is you don't know if you need to. You may be an asymptomatic carrier, and there is no way for you to know you're not.
 

Starmill

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This is rapidly turning into the new "if you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear",
That's an extreme objection to reasonable privacy law. It is a ludicrous argument, but it's used against intrusive measures which are far worse than face coverings. My chief criticism of you was your lack of proportionality, especially thinking that asking you to wear a face covering is as bad as criminalising leaving your home. This is simply more evidence that your interpretation of this is wrong.
 

Yew

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There is no clear evidence that they are effective, therefore the null hypothesis stands. This is purely to make it seem like _something_ is being done to help, regardless of is the _something_ shows any effectiveness.
 

Starmill

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I've already stated that we need to move to a model that allows people to assess their own levels of risk and decide accordingly what they can or can't do.
Yes you have, and so many people have explained, clearly and nicely, why this isn't going to happen.
 

Journeyman

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The trouble is you don't know if you need to. You may be an asymptomatic carrier, and there is no way for you to know you're not.

You could be an asymptomatic carrier of anything. We've lived with that in the past.
My chief criticism of you was your lack of proportionality, especially thinking that asking you to wear a face covering is as bad as criminalising leaving your home. This is simply more evidence that your interpretation of this is wrong.

Once again, I stand by what I've said. And yes, I have a massive problem with the house arrest that was imposed on us as well.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is no clear evidence that they are effective, therefore the null hypothesis stands. This is purely to make it seem like _something_ is being done to help, regardless of is the _something_ shows any effectiveness.

The trouble is, what do you propose as a means of finding out how effective they are for infection control in a COVID-19 pandemic unless you, for instance, use them in one?

It's a cheap and easy mass experiment to carry out. If they don't work, bin them off next time restrictions are reviewed.
 
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