Possible Fleet classification of the Avanti AT300s

[Stephen Lee]

I wondered what TOPS will they use, but probably will be 8xx.

 

[D365]

The EMR AT300s (which eventually turned out to be Class 810) were originally reported to be designated as Class 804 or even Class 800. When it comes to Hitachi units, it looks like even the railway bodies are prone to speculating!

 

[Energy]

Probably 8XX, we don't know anything else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I don't quite get is why we're burning through quite so many class numbers with 80x, when more sensibly they'd all be Class 800 and the variants subclasses, other than the 24m variant maybe because it's very different.

 

[Domh245]

For starters there is the entire 8xx range to play with for High Speed MUs, so there's no real pressure to keep things constrained. As for the different numbers, there's plenty of logic - 800 are IEP bi-mode units, 801 are IEP EMUs, 802 are First Group procured Bi-Modes, 810 are the 24m MML units, and 8whatever are First Group procured oddities (seeing as we know so little about them)

 

[D365]

For starters there is the entire 8xx range to play with for High Speed MUs, so there's no real pressure to keep things constrained. As for the different numbers, there's plenty of logic - 800 are IEP bi-mode units, 801 are IEP EMUs, 802 are First Group procured Bi-Modes, 810 are the 24m MML units, and 8whatever are First Group procured oddities (seeing as we know so little about them)

According to Wikipedia, Class 803 is the five East Coast Trains units.

 

[Neptune]

One thing I don't quite get is why we're burning through quite so many class numbers with 80x, when more sensibly they'd all be Class 800 and the variants subclasses, other than the 24m variant maybe because it's very different.

I agree to a certain extent. I get the separation of bi-modes and EMU’s and of course the shorter EMR units but why were the TPE and HT units not simply a class 800 subclass. Why do the new East Coast units have to be 803. Yes there are variations internally and technically but that’s why sub classes have always existed.

For instance why aren’t the new WMR and TfW civity units not simply a class 195 sub class. Before anybody says “because they have end gangways“ I point you to the class 150 and 172 sub classes.

Imagine if all those Class 170‘s had been given different class numbers for each order.

 

[Energy]

I agree to a certain extent. I get the separation of bi-modes and EMU’s and of course the shorter EMR units but why were the TPE and HT units not simply a class 800 subclass. Why do the new East Coast units have to be 803. Yes there are variations internally and technically but that’s why sub classes have always existed.

The 802s should be a 800 subclass, 803 an 801 subclass. The 810s can be a seperate class though.

 

[Domh245]

I agree to a certain extent. I get the separation of bi-modes and EMU’s and of course the shorter EMR units but why were the TPE and HT units not simply a class 800 subclass. Why do the new East Coast units have to be 803. Yes there are variations internally and technically but that’s why sub classes have always existed.

Because of the different ownership structure - 800 and 801 units are owned by Agility Trains (West/East) and provided on a diagram basis to GWR/LNER. 802 are owned by Eversholt and are on fairly conventional leases to GWR/TPE/HT. 803 are similarly not part of the IEP program, but by most accounts will be different once again to the existing 80x fleets.

For instance why aren’t the new WMR and TfW civity units not simply a class 195 sub class. Before anybody says “because they have end gangways“ I point you to the class 150 and 172 sub classes.

Imagine if all those Class 170‘s had been given different class numbers for each order.

How things were is not justification for how things have to be. The other thing to remember of course is that vast swathes of numbers have been made available that weren't previously - the use of 6 digit vehicle numbers and the presence of the 7xx and 8xx ranges means that there's now a lot more numbers to choose from easily - so why wouldn't you?

 

[Energy]

802 are owned by Eversholt and are on fairly conventional leases to GWR/TPE/HT

Incorrect, TPE 802s are owned by Angel.

 

[Domh245]

Incorrect, TPE 802s are owned by Angel.

Bit of a mea culpa on that one - typing without checking! Eversholt only have the GWR 802s, HT & TPE are both Angel but the point still stands - they are outside of the Intercity Express Programme on conventional leases, so would not fall under IEP number ranges

 

[Doomotron]

I thought that the Avanti ones were going to be 800/801s.

 

[Energy]

I thought that the Avanti ones were going to be 800/801s.

Doubt it, they aren't part of the IEP.

 

[Nym]

Also, the 802s are very different to the 800s underneath. With completely different maintenance cycles.

 

[thealm]

803 for electric
802 for bi-mode

 

[Domh245]

Also, the 802s are very different to the 800s underneath. With completely different maintenance cycles.

I was under the impression that the only difference (at least when comparing the GWR sets) was the lack of brake resistors on the 800 - everything else has been 'upgraded' to 802 spec.

 

[adrock1976]

Would it be far easier to have the AC only classed as 391, with the bimodes (assuming that they are DEMU) classed as 223?

This would be a continuation from the 390s and the 221s.

 

[Nym]

I was under the impression that the only difference (at least when comparing the GWR sets) was the lack of brake resistors on the 800 - everything else has been 'upgraded' to 802 spec.

At very minimum the Japanise built ones use different service lubricants etc compared with the UK assembled ones.
I think most of the major components have been changed out now though, but it's still seperate maintenance regimes.

 

[Domh245]

At very minimum the Japanise built ones use different service lubricants etc compared with the UK assembled ones.
I think most of the major components have been changed out now though, but it's still seperate maintenance regimes.

Italian built surely? Only a handful of IEP units were fully built in Kasado with the rest of the IEP fleet screwed together at Newton Aycliffe. Most (if not all) 802s were Pistoia built

 

[popeter45]

is there any clear info on when a subclass should be used as opposed to using a whole new class?
the 700 and 800 ranges wont be clear forever so need some rules and quick considering the state of the 700 range before they fill up

 

[Nym]

Italian built surely? Only a handful of IEP units were fully built in Kasado with the rest of the IEP fleet screwed together at Newton Aycliffe. Most (if not all) 802s were Pistoia built

Sorry, getting midly confused during dealing with other things.

The Italian and British assembled ones have the same maintenance fluids etc as they use European sub-components.
The Japanese assembled ones use special lubricants for example (or did last time I was down in London).

The 800/801 and 802, not only contractually different, but there are some fundamental electrical differences under the hood, and some of the structure differ as well.
The touch and feel of them is essentially the same now.

 

[D365]

Would it be far easier to have the AC only classed as 391, with the bimodes (assuming that they are DEMU) classed as 223?

This would be a continuation from the 390s and the 221s.

They don’t have anything to do with the existing West Coast fleets. That’s like saying the Class 810s for EMR should have been Class 223 or 224.

What do you mean by “assuming they are DEMU”?

 

[Domh245]

Sorry, getting midly confused during dealing with other things.

The Italian and British assembled ones have the same maintenance fluids etc as they use European sub-components.
The Japanese assembled ones use special lubricants for example (or did last time I was down in London).

The 800/801 and 802, not only contractually different, but there are some fundamental electrical differences under the hood, and some of the structure differ as well.
The touch and feel of them is essentially the same now.

Interesting that the Japanese built units still are on different fluids, I would have thought they'd be 'standardised' before being released into service. ISTR a story about the paint on Japanese bodyshells being better than on the Italian ones because of a difference in the composition that was allowable in Japan but not Italy. Extra interesting then if the Japanese units still require fluids that are deemed unsuitable for use in Europe!

 

[Doveymain158]

Avanti West Coast AT300 have now been classified Class 805 5-car bi-mode, Class 807 7-car EMU

 

[rdlover777]

Richard Clinnick just confirmed on twitter that they're be TOPS as 805 and 807 with the 805s being bi-model 5 car and 807 being full AC 7 car

Confirmed by @AvantiWestCoast (albeit it fell into my spam) that it's @HitachiRailEU IETs will be 805001-013 for the bi-modes and 807001-010 for the seven car electric sets. The 390s are also about to start receiving AWC's new livery too.

 

[popeter45]

Avanti West Coast AT300 have now been classified Class 805 5-car bi-mode, Class 807 7-car EMU

what differentiates the 805's from 802's?

 

[D365]

what differentiates the 805's from 802's?

As far as I recall, it's incremental improvements to the AT300 platform since the Class 802s were ordered.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why waste two class numbers on effectively the same train but with different numbers of carriages? 805 and 807 surely one would do with subclasses?

 

[thealm]

This is silly a different TOPS for different operators why couldn't it just be 802 for bi-modes and 803 for electric it would mean that the fleet is more equal.

 

[Doomotron]

WHY?!

Why did they have to skip 4 and 6?