Ideas for Transpennine route improvements

[Halish Railway]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pgrade-and-electrification-updates-cp6.88054/

So, in essence, Dewsbury drops down to having 2 tracks, and Batley gets a 3rd track? Makes sense, given that Dewsbury's current function (of looping an eastbound Slow train to allow a Fast train to pass) can now be taken by Ravensthorpe; and of course completely separating Slow & Fast between Ravensthorpe & Huddersfield has its own advantages. Looping a westbound Slow at Batley to allow a Fast to pass then gives a pretty clear run to the separate tracks at Ravensthorpe too.

Is there any reason why it can't be quad-tracked from Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury? (Mind you it might be difficult to get two fast lines in at Dewsbury). Operationally it'd be much better as a stopping train could be out of the way at Dewsbury before a fast train comes through.

I've quickly made a rough track diagram of what this could look like, taking into account what we already know about the Huddersfield to Westtown project:



By the way, if we're going to talk about Dewsbury, is the plan still to electrify through there as there was talk that the bridge was quite difficult to wire through (live wire at least) as re-decking it was difficult - From my point of view it looks very similar to the one at Bingley and that was wired through.

 

[deltic08]

Is there any reason why it can't be quad-tracked from Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury? (Mind you it might be difficult to get two fast lines in at Dewsbury). Operationally it'd be much better as a stopping train could be out of the way at Dewsbury before a fast train comes through.

I've quickly made a rough track diagram of what this could look like, taking into account what we already know about the Huddersfield to Westtown project:

View attachment 78306

By the way, if we're going to talk about Dewsbury, is the plan still to electrify through there as there was talk that the bridge was quite difficult to wire through (live wire at least) as re-decking it was
difficult - From my point of view it looks very similar to the one at Bingley and that was wired through.

I was thinking the same but there is not enough width between both stations for four tracks all the way and the west bound platform would have to be set back to maintain speed limit on the fasts. Very expensive.
The main station building may even be listed.

 

[lancastrian]

As an additional thought, why don't they electrify from Victoria to Rochdale. Surely the new bay platform can be used for terminators.
Plus it would save blocking up the restricted 4 through platforms at Victoria and be a good start to electrifying the Calder Valley route.

 

[LittleAH]

Is there any reason why it can't be quad-tracked from Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury? (Mind you it might be difficult to get two fast lines in at Dewsbury). Operationally it'd be much better as a stopping train could be out of the way at Dewsbury before a fast train comes through.

I've quickly made a rough track diagram of what this could look like, taking into account what we already know about the Huddersfield to Westtown project:

View attachment 78306

By the way, if we're going to talk about Dewsbury, is the plan still to electrify through there as there was talk that the bridge was quite difficult to wire through (live wire at least) as re-decking it was difficult - From my point of view it looks very similar to the one at Bingley and that was wired through.

Dewsbury to Ravensthorpe has only ever had the capacity for two tracks. To four track such a small section would cost quite a lot given the land the would need to be purchased.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I can see the logic but what would you do about the section from Batley to Leeds through Morley & Cottingley/White Rose ?

Morley is close to Morley Tunnel whilst the proposed site for this new White Rose station is on an embankment!

 

[37424]

I can see the logic but what would you do about the section from Batley to Leeds through Morley & Cottingley/White Rose ?

Morley is close to Morley Tunnel whilst the proposed site for this new White Rose station is on an embankment!

I thought we was talking about Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury, not to Leeds, Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury I doubt its worth the expense for the distance, Dewsbury to Leeds would cost a fortune, a long tunnel and what is it 3 viaducts to deal with.

 

[Purple Orange]

1. Electrification, electrification, electrification. This is a hurdle that should have been overcome by now, but then we had Chris Grayling in charge.
2. Build platform 15 & 16 at Manchester Piccadilly to assist with better reliability through Manchester. Again a hurdle that should have been overcome by now.
3. Long term, build a new line from Manchester to Leeds.

If the Northern Hub and trans pennine electrification had been completed as planned, how different would the conversation on this topic be?

 

[nr758123]

It's astonishing how full electrification from Manchester to Leeds and York, which was announced in the 2011 Autumn statement, nine years later is reduced to the status of a speculative idea.

 

[37424]

It's astonishing how full electrification from Manchester to Leeds and York, which was announced in the 2011 Autumn statement, nine years later is reduced to the status of a speculative idea.

But that's not really the case is it? design work is going on for various sections including a rescoping to upgrade capacity. I mean you could just stick some wires up between Huddersfield and Leeds which would be much quicker and cheaper, but the plan involves a major capacity upgrade which is going to involve much more major infrastructure work.

 

[Senex]

But that's not really the case is it? design work is going on for various sections including a rescoping to upgrade capacity. I mean you could just stick some wires up between Huddersfield and Leeds which would be much quicker and cheaper, but the plan involves a major capacity upgrade which is going to involve much more major infrastructure work.

Even so, it's not very much to shew for nearly nine years, is it? The north has been very badly let down over all this. I'd strongly echo what Purple Orange says above in post #7 (and add that I'd like to see some improvement in line-speeds too — to electrify the Liverpool & Manchester but not straighten out Patricroft or deliver the planned speed at Astley was unforgivable).

 

[Purple Orange]

But that's not really the case is it? design work is going on for various sections including a rescoping to upgrade capacity. I mean you could just stick some wires up between Huddersfield and Leeds which would be much quicker and cheaper, but the plan involves a major capacity upgrade which is going to involve much more major infrastructure work.

Can we qualify what a major capacity upgrade on the line between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds looks like?

There are 5 TPE trains between Manchester and Leeds that take anything between 45 mins and 1 hour. I read a lot of comments on the TPRU, but the comments get shoulders deep in the detail, without many people standing up and discussing what is actually going to be achieved.

Will we see more trains per hour and how many more trains?

Will we see faster journey times and how much faster?

 

[37424]

Even so, it's not very much to shew for nearly nine years, is it? The north has been very badly let down over all this. I'd strongly echo what Purple Orange says above in post #7 (and add that I'd like to see some improvement in line-speeds too — to electrify the Liverpool & Manchester but not straighten out Patricroft or deliver the planned speed at Astley was unforgivable).

Well if Network Rail hadn't massively blown the budget on electrification there might have been further progress or do you think there should be a bottomless pit of money for electrification?

 

[37424]

Can we qualify what a major capacity upgrade on the line between Manchester, Huddersfield and Leeds looks like?

There are 5 TPE trains between Manchester and Leeds that take anything between 45 mins and 1 hour. I read a lot of comments on the TPRU, but the comments get shoulders deep in the detail, without many people standing up and discussing what is actually going to be achieved.

Will we see more trains per hour and how many more trains?

Will we see faster journey times and how much faster?

Well the Network Rail document for Huddersfield-Leeds isn't specific, but it does promise better capacity and a faster more resilient service. That section also affect other routes as well as Transpennine. ideally I would also like to see a document detailing the benefits of each section and possibly compared to cheaper options.

 

[Purple Orange]

Well if Network Rail hadn't massively blown the budget on electrification there might have been further progress or do you think there should be a bottomless pit of money for electrification?

That’s an argument for not having a continuous programme of electrification, while some would argue that is a reason for no electrification.

Well the Network Rail document for Huddersfield-Leeds isn't specific, but it does promise better capacity and a faster more resilient service. That section also affect other routes as well as Transpennine. ideally I would also like to see a document detailing the benefits of each section and possibly compared to cheaper options.

Surely some of the bright sparks on this forum, who know a great detail about the rail industry, may be able to speculate what the tangible benefits to passengers could be.

 

[quantinghome]

This is what I can piece together from internet searches:

The scheme appears to be looking at 4 fast + 2 semi-fast + 2 slow trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds, based on these slides:
https://digitalrailway.co.uk/wp-con...nine-Route-Upgrade-SDO-01-Analysis-Report.pdf

Some of the stakeholders such as WYCA have done their own analysis which concludes that there is no real advantage in going above 4 fast tph in terms of increasing demand and they would probably like to see a greater frequency of slow services instead of increasing the numbers of fast services. However they conclude that their preferred option would be possible with the planned infrastructure improvements, so they are supportive.
https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s9022/Item 6 - TRU update - Appendix 1.pdf

I daresay others have more up to date information but may not feel able to share on a public forum.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Everything taking so long is frustrating. I understand. Here is what I would do. Minimize as best as possible disruption and not too many rail replacement busses.
1. Electrify and improve Manchester Victoria to Heyrod grid feedee ( gets a difficult bit done - Stalybridge and tunnels)
2. 4 track and electrify Heaton Lodge jct to Ravensthorpe
3. Electrify Huddersfield to Leeds
4. Electrify Leeds to Selby then rolling programme to Hull
4a. Any bit missing electrify Leeds to York
5. Electrify Leeds to Bradford Interchange then through to Rochdale and Manchester Victoria
6. Copy Pit route electrify to Preston
7. Nelson - Colne electrify
8. The difficult bit - Stalybridge Grid feeder at Heyrod electrify to Huddersfield.

 

[Purple Orange]

This is what I can piece together from internet searches:

The scheme appears to be looking at 4 fast + 2 semi-fast + 2 slow trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds, based on these slides:
https://digitalrailway.co.uk/wp-con...nine-Route-Upgrade-SDO-01-Analysis-Report.pdf

Some of the stakeholders such as WYCA have done their own analysis which concludes that there is no real advantage in going above 4 fast tph in terms of increasing demand and they would probably like to see a greater frequency of slow services instead of increasing the numbers of fast services. However they conclude that their preferred option would be possible with the planned infrastructure improvements, so they are supportive.
https://westyorkshire.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s9022/Item 6 - TRU update - Appendix 1.pdf

I daresay others have more up to date information but may not feel able to share on a public forum.

Thanks. For a mere commuter like me, that first slide deck is difficult reading. Then again, it is not intended for people like me. That all said, once all the work has been complete, which includes electrification between Huddersfield & Leeds and Manchester & Stalybridge, Manchester-Leeds fast trains should be 39 mins. Or have I interpreted that incorrectly?

 

[Halifaxlad]

I thought we was talking about Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury, not to Leeds, Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury I doubt its worth the expense for the distance, Dewsbury to Leeds would cost a fortune, a long tunnel and what is it 3 viaducts to deal with.

My point was that whatever you do you will still end up reverting to two track anyway between Dewsbury and Leeds. So it would be hard to justify the expenditure required.

I would rather see what money would be spent on that, on a new line after Dewsbury or maybe just after Batley that would bypass Morley & this new proposed White Rose station.