Rail services to be increased on May 18th

[Bald Rick]

I think Austria has 1m social spacing (the WHO recommendation).
So that at least doubles capacity compared to our rules.

Quadruples.

 

[yorksrob]

I think Austria has 1m social spacing (the WHO recommendation).
So that at least doubles capacity compared to our rules.

Ah thanks for the confirmation. Seems to be closer to Paris' solution of blocking out every other seat.

 

[Mogster]

From the morning TV ITV GMB were at Manchester Piccadilly this around 7am.

I had the feeling they were expecting to film crowds and distancing problems but there were very few people there.

 

[TitanMike]

Greater Anglia have announced they will be operating a Saturday service from next Monday, the NRW-LST will remain hourly but will not call at Colchester or Chelmsford in the peaks. Rural routes remain hourly apart from IPS-PBO to remain two hourly.

 

[Horizon22]

Not sure if commuter traffic is different in France, but the issues in London during the lockdown have highlighted that issues and crowding on public transport for key workers are NOT during rush hour, but pre-07.00. This is of course something that all of us who are regularly crammed onto the the 05-something am train would come as no surprise, but for those who are still tucked up in bed at that time would probably have had no idea.

Indeed, and they are also busy with shift workers who have mostly continued to go to work.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Quadruples.

Not so... if you imagine a grid on the floor 2m by 2m, you'll have four people - one at each corner.

If it's then 1m separation, you'll have another four people, half way between each of the original four, plus a fifth extra in the middle of the grid.

Thus nine people where you would have previously had four, so more than doubling - but not quadrupling.

 

[Horizon22]

I've seen diagrams where a 4 or 5 car train would have a max of 60-70 people. Although TOCs have no legal authority to enforce this...

 

[221129]

Although TOCs have no legal authority to enforce this...

Ermm yes they do.

 

[Roast Veg]

Not so... if you imagine a grid on the floor 2m by 2m, you'll have four people - one at each corner.

If it's then 1m separation, you'll have another four people, half way between each of the original four, plus a fifth extra in the middle of the grid.

Thus nine people where you would have previously had four, so more than doubling - but not quadrupling.

Balk Rick is correct if the floor is demarked with 2m squares - they can be split into four 1m squares apiece. If the onus to remain 1m or 2m away only applies to the space between people, then you are right to say the maximum capacity of any space is not quadrupled. If you were to graph it it would tend from doubling towards quadrupling as the space increased in size. An interesting mathematical problem!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, I took the rules to mean you have to be 1m or 2m away from anyone else, i.e. in a linear manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I took the rules to mean you have to be 1m or 2m away from anyone else, i.e. in a linear manner.

Agreed. In essence you should be able to swing a 2m pole without whacking anyone.

 

[Horizon22]

Ermm yes they do.

Force people to move seats? The BTP could but your regular guard/conductor doesn't.

 

[nlogax]

(Not seen this mentioned elsewhere, unsure if this belongs here or in the Rolling Stock or Diagrams sub-forums.. )

Rail services may about to be increased but Northern is using the C19 pandemic as reason to kill off their remaining Pacer services - as of this coming weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...080c7274539815#block-5ebab4828f080c7274539815

Northern Rail is to use the collapse in demand for rail travel caused by the Covid-19 pandemic to finally retire its entire fleet of Pacer trains.

These much-maligned “buses on rails” have become a leaking, squeaking symbol of the underinvestment in northern England in recent years as Northern Rail missed successive deadlines to send them to the railway knacker’s yard.

But at a virtual meeting of the Rail North Committee on Tuesday, politicians including Greater Manchester’s mayor Andy Burnham were told that no pacers will be on the Northern network from this Saturday (18 May).

EDIT: ok, as seen here too. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-pacer-withdrawals-info.166981/page-127 - Northern Pacer Withdrawals thread.

 

[221129]

Force people to move seats? The BTP could but your regular guard/conductor doesn't.

Except they do. The guard will likely ask a couple of times and then ask them to leave the service. Requesting Police attendance and delaying the train if needs be.

 

[Horizon22]

Except they do. The guard will likely ask a couple of times and then ask them to leave the service. Requesting Police attendance and delaying the train if needs be.

In what circumstance would this be required? For anti-social behaviour or fare evasion perhaps, but this is an entirely new reason to require a passenger to move.

I've seen advice telling people not to try and enforce this. Likely because they do not want to get into a confrontation about it. I expect most will be sensible about it though.

 

[LowLevel]

Force people to move seats? The BTP could but your regular guard/conductor doesn't.

The transport police enforce the guard's authority on board a train.

 

[Horizon22]

The transport police enforce the guard's authority on board a train.

Which I imagine the guard would need if the passenger is refusing to move. I don't know if there's a through list of circumstances under which a guard can require a passenger to move seats or if it falls under the broad 'request by railway staff to do so'.

 

[yorksrob]

I've just heard Grant Shapps anouncing something along the lines of "If you must use public transport, retime your visits outside of the rush hour"

The use of the word "visits" seems an unusual one in the context of work journeys. Could this be an implication that not all essential travel is work related.

 

[111-111-1]

I've just heard Grant Shapps anouncing something along the lines of "If you must use public transport, retime your visits outside of the rush hour"

The use of the word "visits" seems an unusual one in the context of work journeys. Could this be an implication that not all essential travel is work related.

The majority is work related but as discussed elsewhere things such as hospital appointments and even shopping or banking can be.

 

[Qwerty133]

Except they do. The guard will likely ask a couple of times and then ask them to leave the service. Requesting Police attendance and delaying the train if needs be.

Will a guard really care, or possibly even know, if there are 2 people sat less than 2 metres apart 4 coaches away from the back cab that contains the door controls?
What a guard can legally do and what they'd do in reality are 2 different things. Guards are not public health officials and while they should do what they need to in order to protect their own safety it is not reasonable for them to be expected to police social distancing between passengers, in areas that they do not have to pass through and are therefore themselves not at heightened risk, to any real extent. While it may be possible for station based staff to limit the numbers on board a train by limiting the numbers permitted onto the platform passengers need to take their own responsibility for social distancing whilst on board.

 

[chris11256]

c2c have now confirmed that a normal weekday service is running from Monday.

 

[Silverlinky]

Force people to move seats? The BTP could but your regular guard/conductor doesn't.

The Conductor could "ask" people to move and this would be covered under Railway Byelaw 12.2.... "An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions"

So I don't know about forcing anyone to do anything, the BTP could then arrive and deal with the Byelaw offence if the passenger hadn't moved.

 

[Jamesrob637]

c2c have now confirmed that a normal weekday service is running from Monday.

What's their Saturday service like though? c2c is very Monday to Friday London focused, no?

 

[chris11256]

Saturday service is 2tph from Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Street via Chafford Hundred, 2tph Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Street via Basildon, 2 tph Shoeburyness to Liverpool Street and 2tph Fenchurch Street to Grays.

They're weekly off peak timetable isn't very different just with the Liverpool Street services running to Fenchurch Street.

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia stepping up a few routes from Monday 18th. Southend-Liverpool St reverts back to every 20mins. Stansted Express, Hertford East, Cambridge & Ipswich to Liverpool St go half hourly. All other commuter & regional routes (except Ipswich-Peterborough which is 2 hourly anyway) will remain hourly. This includes Norwich-London Intercity. Only other change is Norwich-Cambridge which once again runs through to Stansted Airport.

 

[37424]

Will a guard really care, or possibly even know, if there are 2 people sat less than 2 metres apart 4 coaches away from the back cab that contains the door controls?
What a guard can legally do and what they'd do in reality are 2 different things. Guards are not public health officials and while they should do what they need to in order to protect their own safety it is not reasonable for them to be expected to police social distancing between passengers, in areas that they do not have to pass through and are therefore themselves not at heightened risk, to any real extent. While it may be possible for station based staff to limit the numbers on board a train by limiting the numbers permitted onto the platform passengers need to take their own responsibility for social distancing whilst on board.

I would imagine many Guards will be staying in the back cab as much as possible.

As for having station barriers with a social distant queuing arrangement might work where trains just go in two directions but at major stations you would likely need multiple socially distant queueing arrangements, could be interesting.

 

[MDB1images]

Will a guard really care, or possibly even know, if there are 2 people sat less than 2 metres apart 4 coaches away from the back cab that contains the door controls?
What a guard can legally do and what they'd do in reality are 2 different things. Guards are not public health officials and while they should do what they need to in order to protect their own safety it is not reasonable for them to be expected to police social distancing between passengers, in areas that they do not have to pass through and are therefore themselves not at heightened risk, to any real extent. While it may be possible for station based staff to limit the numbers on board a train by limiting the numbers permitted onto the platform passengers need to take their own responsibility for social distancing whilst on board.

On a ticket check it would be picked up and no doubt the passenger offered an alternate seat if one available but it's far more likely we'll see a rise in passengers 'self policing' this before the Guard turns up.
How that ends up is anyone's guess!

 

[westv]

Basically the more people that can carry on working from home the better.
I can imagine the City will remain deserted (ex construction workers) for quite some time to come.

 

[dk1]

I would imagine many Guards will be staying in the back cab as much as possible.

Yes advice to guards is to remain in their relevant cab. Passengers may go to them if they require anything but the chances of the guard walking through the train to sort issues out will be very slim indeed. The public will need to use common sense & consideration.

 

[Ianno87]

Except they do. The guard will likely ask a couple of times and then ask them to leave the service. Requesting Police attendance and delaying the train if needs be.

In the meantime more passengers turn up, train gets busier and social distancing becomes even less adhered to...