Rail services to be increased on May 18th

[Silverlinky]

Just my thoughts. We’ve been told that being near someone for a short period of time is unlikely to transmit the virus, only longer periods of time. So if passengers are able to keep their distance during their journey, and are only having to be close to others for short periods of time (e.g. entering/leaving the train/station) then we’re probably quite safe.
I’ve not been on a train in over 2 months now though, so don’t know what the reality with social distancing is when travelling.

This is true. Wasn't it the case in the early days that you had to be in someone's company for more than 15 minutes to be at risk? The 15 minute thing seemed to get dropped somewhere along the way. Now its like you can't be within 2m of anyone for even a second and you must avoid other people full stop.

 

[Huntergreed]

This is true. Wasn't it the case in the early days that you had to be in someone's company for more than 15 minutes to be at risk? The 15 minute thing seemed to get dropped somewhere along the way. Now its like you can't be within 2m of anyone for even a second and you must avoid other people full stop.

That has happened as a result of the government's tactic of trying to scare everyone into their homes. A lot of people are really scared of this virus and are convinced that if you come within 2m of them they'll drop dead. Unless the government change their messaging tactic, it's going to be very, very difficult to get society moving again, public transport in particular will be challenging.

 

[Mojo]

Unfortunately they are hoist by there own petard with the 2m rule so they have to respond to the impact of implementing this in terms of briefing to public otherwise they are undermining the overall message. I'm pretty sure any operator will have put them straight about the practicalities of implementing this and the nigh impossible task in enforcing it so it will be left to Joe Public to be sensible probably with face masks which pretty well all European operators have mandated.

FWIW I’m aware of a number of different railway stations run by different operators that have received a large number of masks delivered; which to me makes it sound as if there is about to be a ruling or other guidance that masks should be worn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That has happened as a result of the government's tactic of trying to scare everyone into their homes. A lot of people are really scared of this virus and are convinced that if you come within 2m of them they'll drop dead. Unless the government change their messaging tactic, it's going to be very, very difficult to get society moving again, public transport in particular will be challenging.

People fearing the use of public transport is at this stage quite helpful, as it might mean it isn't overwhelmed even if fully opened up.

 

[carlberry]

This is true. Wasn't it the case in the early days that you had to be in someone's company for more than 15 minutes to be at risk? The 15 minute thing seemed to get dropped somewhere along the way. Now its like you can't be within 2m of anyone for even a second and you must avoid other people full stop.

In the early days it was thought it wasn't quite as contagious as it's proved to be, we still dont really know. It's all about levels of risk.; in theory you could catch it from one droplet from the air and, on a windy day, you could by a hundred years away from the source. Or somebody could sneeze over you and you could avoid it by luck.

 

[Meole]

A good time to increase fares to discourage use perhaps ?

The use of concession passes could be withdrawn for a period as well to reduce passenger numbers.

 

[yorksrob]

Some interesting updates from Paris, who have eased their lockdown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52612438

In the French capital, metro and bus services are operating, though only every second seat can be used and masks are compulsory. The public transport network is less crowded than feared as commuter traffic has remained light.

Car traffic is much less dense than in normal times, and with bars and cafés shut - and no tourists to speak of - the city still feels unusually quiet, says the BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris.

On the metro and suburban commuter lines, passengers need an authorisation from their employer if they travel during rush hour - and in general, it has been possible to maintain social distancing.

The head of the Paris public transport operator RATP, Catherine Guillouard, noted people were mostly wearing masks around the network - which "even goes beyond 95% in some places".

But on some parts of the system, there have been incidents of commuters struggling to maintain social distancing.

There was some congestion first thing this morning on line 13 of the metro network after water leaks at two stations caused traffic delays, leading to carriages being overcrowded.

And at some RER stations, commuters were also unable to observe social-distancing rules.

There do seem to have been some difficulties in socially distancing in particular instances, but this has been by no means universal.

The thing I noticed was that whilst key workers are expected to carry authorisation from their employer if they travel during rush hour, there doesn't seem to be any sort of blanket restriction on non-key workers at other times. This puts them at odds with rail systems in this country.

 

[Jimini]

Out of interest, how many times have you been challenged? And who was doing the challenging? I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't the traincrew......BTP perhaps would do it.

You've hit the nail on the head....its ok sitting apart, but what happens at stations, either getting on or off the train? Who marshals that? The travelling public have to use their own common sense, those that have any anyway!

I see the RMT have said about 20% capacity.....well for a 12 coach train that could still be 200 passengers.....and there are nowhere near that travelling in my area. But lets just say there are 250 on a train....and the Guard of the train refuses to work the train under the Worksafe procedure, what happens next? Where do those 250 passengers go? On the next train? Refused travel and they go into conflict with station staff on the platform?

Anyway... I don't know why the RMT think there could be a "surge" when other news is reporting that even if lockdown was lifted the majority would still be wary of going out and about.

For me, I've travelled twice out of Paddington for work (last Wednesday and the previous Thursday), and on both occasions the BTP have been on board prior to departure checking paperwork / reasons for travelling etc. and kicking people off if they don't have it.

 

[Huntergreed]

Are travel reasons still being checked and proof demanded today? Given a lot of workers are now encouraged to return

 

[Mojo]

The thing I noticed was that whilst key workers are expected to carry authorisation from their employer if they travel during rush hour, there doesn't seem to be any sort of blanket restriction on non-key workers at other times. This puts them at odds with rail systems in this country.

Not sure if commuter traffic is different in France, but the issues in London during the lockdown have highlighted that issues and crowding on public transport for key workers are NOT during rush hour, but pre-07.00. This is of course something that all of us who are regularly crammed onto the the 05-something am train would come as no surprise, but for those who are still tucked up in bed at that time would probably have had no idea.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure if commuter traffic is different in France, but the issues in London during the lockdown have highlighted that issues and crowding on public transport for key workers are NOT during rush hour, but pre-07.00. This is of course something that all of us who are regularly crammed onto the the 05-something am train would come as no surprise, but for those who are still tucked up in bed at that time would probably have had no idea.

That is interesting, presumably for London 5:00am could be included in the peak hour.

That said, on my non-London route, the 6:30 train (the earliest available) is always very quiet compared to 1-2 hours later !

 

[Mojo]

That is interesting, presumably for London 5:00am could be included in the peak hour.

On the Underground, journeys starting before 06.30 are classed as Off-peak. Whilst the first few trains are packed, it does depend on where - for instance the Barnet branch of the Northern line serves many higher class areas and thus is a lot quieter than say the Central line coming in from the east end - but then it dies down for a little bit.

Amusingly at the last election, Lib Dems proposed half price travel for journeys before 07.30. Not exactly helping their reputation as being the party for the out of touch middle classes; it is quite easy to check TfL statistics to see how busy early morning trains are!

 

[yorksrob]

On the Underground, journeys starting before 06.30 are classed as Off-peak. Whilst the first few trains are packed, it does depend on where - for instance the Barnet branch of the Northern line serves many higher class areas and thus is a lot quieter than say the Central line coming in from the east end - but then it dies down for a little bit.

Amusingly at the last election, Lib Dems proposed half price travel for journeys before 07.30. Not exactly helping their reputation as being the party for the out of touch middle classes; it is quite easy to check TfL statistics to see how busy early morning trains are!

There is of course good reason for pre 6:30 being off-peak in terms of cost, given that many of those travelling will be low income, however you could still have a travel restriction for non-workers.

That said, people visiting their maiden aunt in their garden, are less likely to be setting off at 5:00 am.

 

[Silverlinky]

Just to follow up on the feared "surge in passenger numbers" today, a counting exercise took place during the evening peak at Euston for all LNW departures.

All trains between the 1618 and 1918 departures were counted, all were formed of 12 coaches, and the highest number of passengers was 104 on the 1718 departure. So, fewer than 9 passengers per coach on average, each coach has around 80 seats.

No worries yet about distancing then, in fact by 1848 the number had dropped to just 38 passengers with 36 on the 1918.

 

[the sniper]

Just to follow up on the feared "surge in passenger numbers" today, a counting exercise took place during the evening peak at Euston for all LNW departures.

All trains between the 1618 and 1918 departures were counted, all were formed of 12 coaches, and the highest number of passengers was 104 on the 1718 departure. So, fewer than 9 passengers per coach on average, each coach has around 80 seats.

No worries yet about distancing then, in fact by 1848 the number had dropped to just 38 passengers with 36 on the 1918.

Hey boss. Were measures successfully implemented to ensure the equal spread of those passengers to deliver the 9 passengers per carriage you describe/theorise? Were these numbers not higher than previously recorded? Can you give us more internal information regarding loadings found elsewhere on the WMT network, the vast majority of which sees much shorter formations? Can you update us each day? Thanks boss.

 

[Silverlinky]

Sniper by name, sniper by nature.

 

[the sniper]

 

[Silverlinky]

You asked for figures, I gave you figures! I feared the worst driving into MK this morning but the car park looked the same as it had the previous weeks, no noticeable increase in vehicles.

I would estimate that the normal timetable between 1600 and 1700 would see around 8000 passengers, so to see only 200 today gives an indication of where we are at currently. Only an indication mind you.....my best guess on the evidence I have.

Who is "boss" by the way?

If the information is not appreciated then I'll just give up and retire gracefully.

 

[800002]

Just to follow up on the feared "surge in passenger numbers" today, a counting exercise took place during the evening peak at Euston for all LNW departures.

All trains between the 1618 and 1918 departures were counted, all were formed of 12 coaches, and the highest number of passengers was 104 on the 1718 departure. So, fewer than 9 passengers per coach on average, each coach has around 80 seats.

No worries yet about distancing then, in fact by 1848 the number had dropped to just 38 passengers with 36 on the 1918.

Firstly, thank you very much for posting those figures.

Secondly, would be able to say how many travelled out of Euston (LNW departures) during the count time?

So my basic math at this time of night (please forgive the crudeness of my math) works out to be 11% occupancy (or there abouts) of that 1718 departure?

That's incredible. It just goes to show how much we, as a nation, may well be able to do post covid19 interference from home.
I must say though, I don't really like that prospect of near 100% of time working, spent at home.

 

[800002]

If the information is not appreciated then I'll just give up and retire gracefully.

Information is key to making decisions!
Although I foresee some people using it adversely to say 'oh, plenty of room for one more then...'

 

[PG]

If the information is not appreciated then I'll just give up and retire gracefully.

Thanks for taking the time to update us all on here with those figures, much appreciated

 

[Silverlinky]

Firstly, thank you very much for posting those figures.

Secondly, would be able to say how many travelled out of Euston (LNW departures) during the count time?

So my basic math at this time of night (please forgive the crudeness of my math) works out to be 11% occupancy (or there abouts) of that 1718 departure?

That's incredible. It just goes to show how much we, as a nation, may well be able to do post covid19 interference from home.
I must say though, I don't really like that prospect of near 100% of time working, spent at home.

519 in total....1618-1918 departures (7 trains), its only half hourly all stations service Euston to Northampton at present.

 

[800002]

519 in total....1618-1918 departures (7 trains), its only half hourly all stations service Euston to Northampton at present.

Ahh, thank you.
Yes - I saw the services on RTT, thanks for giving the total figure. That's possible the starkest figure of all in all honesty.
Makes an average of around 74 persons /train, leaving Euston (obviously not accounting for any fluctuation en route). And around 6 persons /box.
But as said earlier, approx 9 per /box maximum on the highest volume departure.

 

[the sniper]

You asked for figures, I gave you figures!

I think you misunderstood the questions if that was your answer.

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how the situation out of Euston and all London termini develops through this week and the coming weeks...

 

[Matt Taylor]

I left Waterloo at 1945 last night (Monday) with only two passengers with a further five joining at Clapham, after Guildford I had no more than three people on board at any given time. These figures are much lower than I anticipated, that’s a 12 car train on an hourly service calling all stations from Woking to Southsea.

 

[Cowley]

I think you misunderstood the questions if that was your answer.

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how the situation out of Euston and all London termini develops through this week and the coming weeks...

@the sniper - I misread it too at first. I think it could have been read as if you expected him to provide hour to hour figures about what was happening out there, which of course you weren’t (unless I’ve got this terribly wrong, in which case I take it all back ).
Whereas you were actually asking a more general question about the situation.
The internet perils of not talking to people face to face...

 

[Silverlinky]

@the sniper - I misread it too at first. I think it could have been read as if you expected him to provide hour to hour figures about what was happening out there, which of course you weren’t (unless I’ve got this terribly wrong, in which case I take it all back ).
Whereas you were actually asking a more general question about the situation.
The internet perils of not talking to people face to face...

It was actually this I was referring to, posts from the previous day....

Strike action...? And can we have a breakdown of these numbers, boss? This'll surely be good ammunition. You can say what you like, you've already got a mod lapping up your rhetoric.



The 20% figure is from the RICF, not an RMT concept. NR are anticipating and planning for a possible surge from Monday, having been briefed on what Boris was going to say. The RMT should ignore that because it doesn't correspond with what the man on the news has guessed will happen? Personally I think the industry are right to be worried about how this will all work.

I said about 200 to 250 per train to reach that threshold, when in fact less than half that number appeared even on the busiest trains. There was no "surge", sure there was probably a slight increase today, and other news reports have shown crowded tube trains etc, so its different all over the country I guess.

He is right though when he says that it will be interesting to see how it develops this week and in coming weeks......its all a bit of an unknown.

 

[the sniper]

It was actually this I was referring to, posts from the previous day....

I had hoped you would. You made a lot of sweeping statements in the post I quoted there. You talk about the RMT taking strike action. Where's this from? You make a point that "many rail staff are sitting at home on full pay, many others are doing "half a job" on full pay." Have you got numbers to back this up, countrywide? How quiet do you want "the unions" to be seemingly because of this? Largely ASLEF represented Drivers getting paid £60k per year means the RMT shouldn't issue entirely legal advice to its members, from Guards to barrier staff, to Signallers or Cleaners, because 'Joe Public' might not be sympathetic? The unions should just turn a blind eye to unsafe practices because railway people still have jobs (for now), when their members are desperate for guidance?

I said about 200 to 250 per train to reach that threshold, when in fact less than half that number appeared even on the busiest trains.

You said "I see the RMT have said about 20% capacity". I said this was not an RMT concept, but came from the RICF. You've gone on to talk a lot about and provide evidence around the premise of the 20% concept, but have just ignored the flaw in your original statement. The industry/unions know that there are many issues that need to be addressed around managing social distancing that aren't solved merely by saying "this train is only 10%/20% full, problem solved".

There was no "surge", sure there was probably a slight increase today, and other news reports have shown crowded tube trains etc, so its different all over the country I guess.

You said "I don't know why the RMT think there could be a "surge"". I said NR were anticipating it too. In the end a "surge" (open to interpretation) was seen on the Tube, which the RMT also cover. Was/is it really unreasonable for NR/RMT to anticipate it? We'll see what happens in the coming days/weeks.

 

[chris11256]

c2c are now saying on their twitter feed via replies to people that service will start returning to normal on Monday.

Good morning, services will start returning to normal as of next week.
7:29 am · 12 May 2020·Orlo

https://twitter.com/c2c_Rail/status/1260094843554082818

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

900 people on a subway train. That sounds like a bit more than 10% capacity.
I wonder if they have markings on the floor to indicate where to stand.

I think Austria has 1m social spacing (the WHO recommendation).
So that at least doubles capacity compared to our rules.