Class 365s - Possible use as freight trains by Varamis.

[edwin_m]

Amazon has a distribution network like no other retailer, or indeed any other logistics company. Essentially there are three layers of logistics for ‘normal’ Amazon, and then a whole seperate chain for Amazon Prime. Interestingly, the logistics set up that was devised for Amazon U.K. was shown to be more efficient than the rest of Amazon’s set up and has now been replicated worldwide.

Inbound stuff for most products from suppliers to one receivable ‘Cross Dock’ centre near Coventry. This then sorts the inventory to be sent to around 15 of the 30 or so fulfilment centres (where the individual items are picked for delivery) nationwide. Many of the inbound goods will arrive in containers from the nearby rail connected logistics centres.

There’s broadly three types of fulfilment centre - one for ‘small sortable’ goods like books and stuff that fits into a small parcel less than 45cm long, one for ‘small and light’ which is bigger household stuff, and the third is ‘non sortable’ for bigger things like furniture etc.

In addition, there are some of the fulfilment centres are specialist goods - there’s one in Rugby that just does beer wine and spirits for example, one in Wales that just does shoes and clothes; these are for nationwide delivery. These specialist centres will usually receive inbound goods direct. Many of the fulfilment centres will also receive some items direct from suppliers.

Products leave the fulfilment centres to go to one of around 60 delivery stations for end delivery, where the packages are sorted down to delivery rounds for the people in white vans (other colours are available). As mentioned above, some of the fulfilment centres will distribute to delivery stations nationwide, some will distribute to delivery stations within a given region.

Prime has a different set up, with (I think) the (seperate) delivery stations each stocking a (comparatively) small range of the most popular products. This is to enable same day delivery.

The only regular bulk hauls will be from the Receiving cross dock centre in Coventry to the Fulfillment centres it serves. Even then, I’d be surprised if there were more than 15-20 wagons from Coventry to any one F.C. daily, and they will of course be spread through the day because of dock space, warehouse capacity and the number of people needed to deal with it. (Notably, the Coventry centre is over 2 miles from the nearest railway, with a lot of houses in between). The loads from each F.C. to the delivery centres will be too infrequent, variable in timing and load, and much too time critical to be considered for rail.

Apparently the next stage of the logistics network development is to link the various European networks with air freight. This is done in the US - Amazon is the only retailer with sufficient scale to have its own operation of this nature, when it rivals FedEx and UPS.


For those with an interest in logistics, it is a fascinating operation.

Fascinating indeed, thanks for the explanation.

I couldn't find the Coventry centre on a quick search but I assume it's Prologis Park at Ryton or the business park near to the airport. Royal Mail, Unipart and even Network Rail have premises in one or the other. They're about midway between the Leamington and Rugby lines, both of which have capacity constraints, and the short distance to HS2 isn't relevant. Missed opportunity in my view - maybe those international links would have had enough volume to justify a daily train to Paris or Brussels?

 

[darloscott]

Apparently the next stage of the logistics network development is to link the various European networks with air freight. This is done in the US - Amazon is the only retailer with sufficient scale to have its own operation of this nature, when it rivals FedEx and UPS.


For those with an interest in logistics, it is a fascinating operation.

Amazon have been building a European air network (air cargo networks is one of my hobbies!) for a while, it's a decent size too with 11 aircraft around Europe linking up 8 airports. I'm told more aircraft and routes to be added shortly!
Agreed the logistics of how things work is simply amazing.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Utter fantasy. Even if they could run a train from Kings Cross to Doncaster or Newcastle, any goods or parcels facilities have long since become car parks or Costas and most platforms deemed inaccessible by gatelines. They're not railheads any more. Then there's pathing, rolling stock maintenance, rescue contracts, track access agreements, night possessions. I can't imagine the ORR granting the few free paths for non-passenger operations, despite the marginal environmental benefit.

As for the Vivarail-like stock modification plans to serve the non existent parcels infrastructure, but without the proper railway engineers Vivarail have... come off it. The whole Royal Mail can't sustain more than a couple of trains of pre-sorted cages a day. Parcels by rail is dead and will stay dead. It isn't the 1970s any more. If it's not 365 days a year 24 hours a day, with high reliability and low cost (think lorries) it is useless to those businesses.

And any website containing that many exclamation marks immediately stands out as amateurish.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Personally i prefer using class 332s from HX.

 

[43096]

And any website containing that many exclamation marks immediately stands out as amateurish.

I hadn’t looked properly at their website. Deary me it is embarrassing. They’re even selling a “gift set” for £30: https://varamis.co.uk/varamis-rail-gift-set

To quote “Includes:
Satchel
Beanie Hat
Thermal Mug
Notepad & Pen
.....everything you need to come and 'spot' our trains!!”

Seriously, that is just cringeworthy. I can’t take them seriously as a logistics company - it actually smacks of being some big wind-up.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I hadn’t looked properly at their website. Deary me it is embarrassing. They’re even selling a “gift set” for £30: https://varamis.co.uk/varamis-rail-gift-set

To quote “Includes:
Satchel
Beanie Hat
Thermal Mug
Notepad & Pen
.....everything you need to come and 'spot' our trains!!”

Seriously, that is just cringeworthy. I can’t take them seriously as a logistics company - it actually smacks of being some big wind-up.

I did seriously wonder if it was someone's GCSE coursework? Business Studies or Design Tech maybe

It ticks lots of boxes for that, hosted by GoDaddy, stuff pasted from Powerpoint or the internet about generic business plans, statements of "values" without much meaning to them, sustainability box ticking, throw in a stolen uncredited rendered image of Euston HS2 station owned by HS2 and Grimshaw Architects (see also here properly credited).

The only thing that shows any credence is that they are actual members of the RSSB, if that means/costs anything for a company with no revenue.

Incidentally the gift set option links straight to a personal Paypal account linked to a Hotmail account of Phil Read. Maybe it'll pay his web hosting fees and leave a tidy profit for when the pubs reopen, who knows!

 

[The Planner]

Fascinating indeed, thanks for the explanation.

I couldn't find the Coventry centre on a quick search but I assume it's Prologis Park at Ryton or the business park near to the airport. Royal Mail, Unipart and even Network Rail have premises in one or the other. They're about midway between the Leamington and Rugby lines, both of which have capacity constraints, and the short distance to HS2 isn't relevant. Missed opportunity in my view - maybe those international links would have had enough volume to justify a daily train to Paris or Brussels?

I think its out near the Jag plant at Allesley.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fascinating indeed, thanks for the explanation.

I couldn't find the Coventry centre on a quick search ...

Tap in ‘Amazon BHX4’ into google maps and you’ll find it.

A great article on Amazon’s worldwide operation can be found here:

Amazon Distribution Network Strategy | MWPVL International

It’s way too long to quote in full.

 

[DDeckard]

Utter fantasy. Even if they could run a train from Kings Cross to Doncaster or Newcastle, any goods or parcels facilities have long since become car parks or Costas and most platforms deemed inaccessible by gatelines. They're not railheads any more. Then there's pathing, rolling stock maintenance, rescue contracts, track access agreements, night possessions. I can't imagine the ORR granting the few free paths for non-passenger operations, despite the marginal environmental benefit.

As for the Vivarail-like stock modification plans to serve the non existent parcels infrastructure, but without the proper railway engineers Vivarail have... come off it. The whole Royal Mail can't sustain more than a couple of trains of pre-sorted cages a day. Parcels by rail is dead and will stay dead. It isn't the 1970s any more. If it's not 365 days a year 24 hours a day, with high reliability and low cost (think lorries) it is useless to those businesses.

And any website containing that many exclamation marks immediately stands out as amateurish.

The ORR don't grant free paths?! They are bid for and much must cheaper than you might imagine. What surprised me is is Vstps are cheaper, well not a surprised because the availability needs utilising but that is not a strategy for a regular service. The roads are at capacity and the rail is not, there will inevitably be a business model to use this capacity. ROG are converting, testing, new adapted stock and have 3 big hitters ready to try them out. Fair play to this pie in the sky idea, I hope he hasn't borrowed family money or put his house up because if it was doomed before CV 19 now it's embarrassing.

 

[Meerkat]

The roads are at capacity and the rail is not

The problem for rail is that the roads are totally not at capacity overnight when the mail and parcels need moving, but the railway does have issues overnight.

 

[365 Networker]

New article:-

Express delivery: time is right for sustainable UK parcels service

Varamis, an ambitious new British company, is planning a radical return to express parcels operations. With green credentials and a solid business model, they have…

www.railfreight.com

Slightly more detailed than the Rail article, although there is a very badly Photo-shopped image of Phil Reed!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

New article:-

Express delivery: time is right for sustainable UK parcels service

Varamis, an ambitious new British company, is planning a radical return to express parcels operations. With green credentials and a solid business model, they have…

www.railfreight.com

Slightly more detailed than the Rail article, although there is a very badly Photo-shopped image of Phil Reed!

thanks for posting

 

[Meerkat]

Is this chap just chancing his arm, trying to get some kind of deal in place the; sell it out to an established operator?

 

[Royston Vasey]

New article:-

Express delivery: time is right for sustainable UK parcels service

Varamis, an ambitious new British company, is planning a radical return to express parcels operations. With green credentials and a solid business model, they have…

www.railfreight.com

Slightly more detailed than the Rail article, although there is a very badly Photo-shopped image of Phil Reed!

Cringe at the use of the phrase "Happy Trains"

 

[gazthomas]

I read the article, no real information in it. It's easy to be negative about such an optimistic plan. If they could announce they have a launch customer that would go a long way to convincing cynics, myself included that they will succeed.

 

[D365]

Cringe at the use of the phrase "Happy Trains"

That nickname is very well established, especially since their use by ScotRail.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That nickname is very well established, especially since their use by ScotRail.

Doesn't make it any less cringeworthy.

 

[Speed43125]

Doesn't make it any less cringeworthy.

Remember, most people are very casually interested in the hobby, and as they now look so different to their other networker cousins, its maybe even good that they have a nickname for people to use, and I'd stil say better than nothing at all.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Remember, most people are very casually interested in the hobby, and as they now look so different to their other networker cousins, its maybe even good that they have a nickname for people to use, and I'd stil say better than nothing at all.

The thing that makes it cringeworthy is that a supposedly serious business venture is using the nickname as a way of seeming "down with the kids". As others have suggested this proposal has more than a slight smell of "college project" about it, and the "happy trains" thing just adds to that. The hobby of being interested in railways has absolutely nothing to do with it. I suppose that the very idea of using trainspotter jargon could ever be seen as a cool, positive thing for a business to do is probably a good thing...

but this whole thing has more cringe than a scantily-clad mud wrestle between David Brent and Michael Scott!

 

[Speed43125]

The thing that makes it cringeworthy is that a supposedly serious business venture is using the nickname as a way of seeming "down with the kids". As others have suggested this proposal has more than a slight smell of "college project" about it, and the "happy trains" thing just adds to that. The hobby of being interested in railways has absolutely nothing to do with it. I suppose that the very idea of using trainspotter jargon could ever be seen as a cool, positive thing for a business to do is probably a good thing...

but this whole thing has more cringe than a scantily-clad mud wrestle between David Brent and Michael Scott!

Well that's the thing, this proposal seems at best very flimsy.

 

[357 LTSRail]

If 365s are to be used for parcels by varamis then GA 379s and c2c 387s can then be cascaded to Great Northern

You'd end up with a lot of excess stock at GN if you did that - 19 365s are already in storage so I assume they're targeting these for logistics use primarily. The 21 still with GN are only really used at peak anyways as 387s are preferred.

 

[D365]

You'd end up with a lot of excess stock at GN if you did that - 19 365s are already in storage so I assume they're targeting these for logistics use primarily. The 21 still with GN are only really used at peak anyways as 387s are preferred.

If anything, we'd only need the Class 379s on the Great Northern side. And that depends on whether GTR see it being worth their time to negotiate with Macquarie Rail (now owned by Akiem Group) for a more favourable deal on the 379s. Unless the 379s do end up coming over, I can see the 365s remaining with us until at least the end of the decade.

 

[geoffk]

I've only seen the Rail article. I thought it a worthwhile aspiration but understand some of the pitfalls. I assume an all-electric fleet is proposed for the simple reason that there are spare emus doing nothing, which is never going to be the case with the diesel fleet, but, as has been mentioned above, they will have to deal with instances of "wires down" or diesel-only diversion. I assume that the carriage of lobsters from Cornwall by GWR has ended as the IET fleet has no provision for this traffic. If this kind of overnight traffic is what Varamis is after, would it not be better to make provision for it in the passenger fleet?

 

[HSTEd]

Well this sort of thing would be much more practical if we had a standard multiple working system, like most rolling stock in America does.
Then a "parcel/freight" EMU would just be coupled to any convenient passenger working.

But just a pipe dream in our industry, as it is.

 

[CBlue]

Well this sort of thing would be much more practical if we had a standard multiple working system, like most rolling stock in America does.
Then a "parcel/freight" EMU would just be coupled to any convenient passenger working.

But just a pipe dream in our industry, as it is.

Would it not require the driver to have training on said parcel/frieght EMU's, if they're off a different class to what is on the passenger working? I don't think it's quite as simple as just coupling it on.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Doesn't make it any less cringeworthy.

Nowhere nearly as "cringey" as whir whirs. Yes, that's an actual nickname for the Networkers & 323's.

 

[Speed43125]

Nowhere nearly as "cringey" as whir whirs. Yes, that's an actual nickname for the Networkers & 323's.

Does that make a 365 a "happy wir wir"
Though, I agree, I've never heard that one before, but if true that is rather appaling

 

[HSTEd]

Would it not require the driver to have training on said parcel/frieght EMU's, if they're off a different class to what is on the passenger working? I don't think it's quite as simple as just coupling it on.

Not if the leading cab is one on which the driver is trained.

If there is a Class 158 in the formation the driver doesn't have to be signed for it, if they are only driving in Class 150 cabs.
That is why chimera units normally have the extra vehicle marshalled into the middle of the formation.

Also isn't the conversion course between the various flavours of sprinter (as an example)a one day job? Any drivers around?

If so then it implies you can have a standard cab that could be used on multiple classes with only limited extra training.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Does that make a 365 a "happy wir wir"
Though, I agree, I've never heard that one before, but if true that is rather appaling

It's mostly used in an ironic ( ) context.

 

[squizzler]

The thing that makes it cringeworthy is that a supposedly serious business venture is using the nickname as a way of seeming "down with the kids" As others have suggested this proposal has more than a slight smell of "college project" about it, and the "happy trains" thing just adds to that.

Isn't that the strategy used by megabucks Silicon Valley outfits to sound harmless whilst they viciously eliminate the completion and you have no choice anymore?