Class 365s - Possible use as freight trains by Varamis.

[365 Networker]

Varamis plans electric freight to carry light goods

Electric-powered high speed logistics services to be launched by Varamis Rail this year

www.railmagazine.com

The article states that they could use 365s or other emus to 'offer an express parcels/consumer goods rail delivery service' on the ECML.
If not the 365s then perhaps the off-lease 317s or 319s could be used?

Here is the company's website:-

Varamis Rail

Express Parcel Service. Speedy delivery of your light goods by electric trains. Promoting great environmental benefits.... your first choice in rail logistics!!

varamis.co.uk

 

[D365]

I'm going to wait for an official announcement before speculating.

 

[Roast Veg]

They certainly seem very confident. How's the ECML for spare overnight paths?

 

[59CosG95]

They certainly seem very confident. How's the ECML for spare overnight paths?

Probably better than the WCML! Although there is the matter of Thameslink south of Peterborough to deal with...

 

[ExRes]

Good luck to Mr Read and Varamis, one thing he's going to need is a good relationship with a FOC who are prepared to haul his units every time the wires are down or any other time when a diesel only diversion is required, his cv shows previous experience with GTR and ROG so that may help but would ROG, operating their own version of this with 769s, be prepared to support a potential business rival? There are numerous links on google for Varamis

 

[edwin_m]

365s may not be the ideal choice because of their aluminium bodies. Steel-bodied units of class 317-321 would be easier to modify.

The video on that link talks about end loading, moving the goods through the train. Not sure how this works with cabs either end and narrow gangways, or why loading through a limited number of doors at the end is better than loading through multiple doors along the side. Perhaps what they need is 707s with their walk-through layout?

 

[Meerkat]

They certainly seem very confident. How's the ECML for spare overnight paths?

Who says overnight? Who owns the old mail docks at Doncaster and Newcastle?
Curiously their videos refers to ‘end on cross docking’ with goods moved internally along the train!!
Are these credible people?

 

[Meerkat]

The video on that link talks about end loading, moving the goods through the train. Not sure how this works with cabs either end and narrow gangways, or why loading through a limited number of doors at the end is better than loading through multiple doors along the side.

If it was practicable then it would make sense - rather than needing a long platform or standage you just need an end dock ....and somewhere to queue the road vans in the right order.....
Sounds like it would need powered rollers (think they exist on freight planes??) and maybe a swing cab - hacksaw and couple of hinges, job done!!

 

[edwin_m]

Sounds like it would need powered rollers (think they exist on freight planes??)

I think all aircraft cargo areas have things like giant ball bearings set into the floor, allowing containers to be moved around in any direction. BR even fitted these experimentally to a couple of Mk1 parcels vans, TOPS code LFA allegedly for "low flying aircraft".

maybe a swing cab - hacksaw and couple of hinges, job done!!

*** sucks teeth ***

 

[365 Networker]

Not sure how this works with cabs either end and narrow gangways

If they used 317s, maybe they could widen the cab end gangways, but that would not leave much room for the driver.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think all aircraft cargo areas have things like giant ball bearings set into the floor, allowing containers to be moved around in any direction. BR even fitted these experimentally to a couple of Mk1 parcels vans, TOPS code LFA allegedly for "low flying aircraft".

*** sucks teeth ***

LFA stood for 'Live Floor' Air-brake. As used on the short-lived 'Track 29' service to Law Junction IIRC.

 

[gazthomas]

Looking at Companies House, the business is registered at what looks like a private home. No rules against that, but somewhat unusual

 

[Tio Terry]

I wish them all the very best, but if you start playing around with the integral design of the rail vehicles - people on here have mentioned wider gangways etc. - then you run in to no end of problems with crash end loadings. Remember, it's not just what happens to this train, it's what it can do to others in an incident.

I would have thought the likes of Amazon would have an interest in this kind of transport between railheads so it's in no way something that should simply be discarded.

 

[edwin_m]

I wish them all the very best, but if you start playing around with the integral design of the rail vehicles - people on here have mentioned wider gangways etc. - then you run in to no end of problems with crash end loadings. Remember, it's not just what happens to this train, it's what it can do to others in an incident.

Crashworthiness at the inner ends probably wouldn't be an issue as a non-passenger vehicle would be treated as a wagon - which don't have any crashworthiness features even though they can collide with passenger trains. But they would need to think hard about structural integrity and fatigue life. If they change the cab end they would have to meet some crashworthiness standard in relation to protecting the driver - things like window surrounds and corner pillars tend to contain heavy structural members to achieve this, so can't simply be removed.

 

[HSTEd]

I get why you would want to move things down the train to avoid the necessity of moving things over a long loading dock, but whats the advantage of loading from the actual end rather than the first set of passenger doors which are only a few metres away?

 

[Meerkat]

I get why you would want to move things down the train to avoid the necessity of moving things over a long loading dock, but whats the advantage of loading from the actual end rather than the first set of passenger doors which are only a few metres away?

Slower, as everything has to stop and change direction.

 

[Iskra]

Looking at Companies House, the business is registered at what looks like a private home. No rules against that, but somewhat unusual

It's not unusual for start-up businesses. Although I think many often change the name of their house address to a business name to make it sound more like you're dealing with a business address rather than a private dwelling.

 

[gazthomas]

It's not unusual for start-up businesses. Although I think many often change the name of their house address to a business name to make it sound more like you're dealing with a business address rather than a private dwelling.

Agreed. Often this role would be taken by their accountants

 

[darloscott]

I wish them all the very best, but if you start playing around with the integral design of the rail vehicles - people on here have mentioned wider gangways etc. - then you run in to no end of problems with crash end loadings. Remember, it's not just what happens to this train, it's what it can do to others in an incident.

I would have thought the likes of Amazon would have an interest in this kind of transport between railheads so it's in no way something that should simply be discarded.

I think you could on the right lines with the likes of Amazon. Certainly here in the North East they've just opened a huge warehouse in Darlington, which is to be joined shortly by a 2nd near Durham and a 3rd is in build near Gateshead. They also have four around Doncaster and a site in Peterborough too. North of the border one of the very original sites is at Dunfermline which isn't a million miles from Edinburgh, which interestingly hasn't been added to the air network yet.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you could on the right lines with the likes of Amazon. Certainly here in the North East they've just opened a huge warehouse in Darlington, which is to be joined shortly by a 2nd near Durham and a 3rd is in build near Gateshead. They also have four around Doncaster and a site in Peterborough too. North of the border one of the very original sites is at Dunfermline which isn't a million miles from Edinburgh, which interestingly hasn't been added to the air network yet.

Are any of these close enough to railways to be rail-connected? If goods have to be transferred to road, even for a short hop, much of the potential speed and cost advantage of rail travel is lost.

 

[Meerkat]

Does the Amazon model work for railways?
i assumed they had a lot of local-ish warehouses which had stuff coming in from all over the place which then went out in delivery vans, so no trainloads

 

[Bald Rick]

Does the Amazon model work for railways?
i assumed they had a lot of local-ish warehouses which had stuff coming in from all over the place which then went out in delivery vans, so no trainloads

Correct. Not much in the way of bulk trunk hauls, and certainly not trainloads in the timescales deliveries are processed.

 

[59CosG95]

Are any of these close enough to railways to be rail-connected? If goods have to be transferred to road, even for a short hop, much of the potential speed and cost advantage of rail travel is lost.

The Peterborough site is located here:

The Up Slow could, in theory, be extended beneath the A1139 (Fletton Pkwy) to service the warehouse (which also has a Debenhams warehouse next to it), but the next bridge north would have to be demolished & rebuilt to allow for extra tracks.
But, as @Bald Rick says, rail doesn't really suit the Amazon model. In any case, an extension of quadruple track south from Fletton Jn would probably come if the proposed Peterborough South Parkway(?), serving the new housing developments at the Hamptons (seen in the bottom left) were to materialise. And even if the facility was rail-connected, the ECML would have another bottleneck at the location - ironically, the Down Fast-Down Slow turnout at Fletton was only recently upgraded for a higher turnout speed, and that's before you add Werrington Jn to the equation!

(P'boro' S Pkwy is only drafted as an idea in the CP6 Eastern Enhancements Delivery Plan; no detailed designs have yet been put forward. Along with the reconstruction of the bridge further north, the scheme would probably also require 4 tracks from Huntingdon to Woodwalton Jn, but this is probably worthy of its own thread)

 

[edwin_m]

Correct. Not much in the way of bulk trunk hauls, and certainly not trainloads in the timescales deliveries are processed.

The supermarket model of a fairly small number of large hubs generates enough bulk for trainloads, but only where distances are long enough such as Daventry-Scotland. I guess Amazon would be a larger number of smaller hubs and the total volumes might be less than for groceries. This is the sort of market ROG are also hoping to crack with their 769s, but nobody has really done anything similar except perhaps Royal Mail.

It might be more successful if they positioned themselves as a neutral carrier serving multiple courier firms. But I don't know if they could efficiently integrate into several operations which no doubt have their hubs and spokes arranged differently, or whether the likes of DHL or UPS or indeed Amazon would want to rely on a third party that also serves their competitors.

 

[Bald Rick]

The supermarket model of a fairly small number of large hubs generates enough bulk for trainloads, but only where distances are long enough such as Daventry-Scotland. I guess Amazon would be a larger number of smaller hubs and the total volumes might be less than for groceries. This is the sort of market ROG are also hoping to crack with their 769s, but nobody has really done anything similar except perhaps Royal Mail.

It might be more successful if they positioned themselves as a neutral carrier serving multiple courier firms. But I don't know if they could efficiently integrate into several operations which no doubt have their hubs and spokes arranged differently, or whether the likes of DHL or UPS or indeed Amazon would want to rely on a third party that also serves their competitors.

It works for (some) supermarkets because they have some products going in bulk by the pallet, direct in the same vehicle to the end destination (ie supermarket in a swap body). Amazon, doesn’t have that, and has many, many more product lines.

Royal Mail managed it because they were trunk hauling hub to hub.

 

[HSTEd]

Does the Amazon model work for railways?
i assumed they had a lot of local-ish warehouses which had stuff coming in from all over the place which then went out in delivery vans, so no trainloads

Well one could imagine a system where small-ish delivery vans are packed with their deliveries, in the correct order, at one central location for the entire country, then shipped out to be picked up by their delivery drivers to be taken on their loops, before being put back on the train to be shipped back to the warehouse.
Goods are only handled the minimum number of times and all maintenance and fueling can be done in a central location.

That would require us to have a large enough loading gauge for delivery vans to practically fit, which I dont know if we do.

 

[darloscott]

I was thinking in the same way their air network carries trunk loads between countries - East Midlands for example has Amazon flights to Leipzig, Madrid, Hanover, Cologne and Milan. Could they extend that sort of loading to the rail network loading parcels up and down the ECML between hubs. There are a significant number within a short distance of the line to potentially make it worthwhile, in the same way that East Midlands airport is close to hubs in Rugby, Daventry and indeed one outside the Airport. Southend also serves as an air hub for the large centre near Tilbury, with flights currently to Madrid and Milan, due to be expanded shortly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well one could imagine a system where small-ish delivery vans are packed with their deliveries, in the correct order, at one central location for the entire country, then shipped out to be picked up by their delivery drivers to be taken on their loops, before being put back on the train to be shipped back to the warehouse.
Goods are only handled the minimum number of times and all maintenance and fueling can be done in a central location.

That would require us to have a large enough loading gauge for delivery vans to practically fit, which I dont know if we do.

It would have to be a very, very big hub for the whole country, and would roughly double the amount of time from despatch to delivery.

Completely impractical!

 

[edwin_m]

Well one could imagine a system where small-ish delivery vans are packed with their deliveries, in the correct order, at one central location for the entire country, then shipped out to be picked up by their delivery drivers to be taken on their loops, before being put back on the train to be shipped back to the warehouse.
Goods are only handled the minimum number of times and all maintenance and fueling can be done in a central location.

That would require us to have a large enough loading gauge for delivery vans to practically fit, which I dont know if we do.

It would have to be a very, very big hub for the whole country, and would roughly double the amount of time from despatch to delivery.

Completely impractical!

It would also significantly lengthen delivery times for those who lived some hundreds of miles from the main depot. The goods would have to travel that entire distance, including waiting for the next empty slot on a train, after they were ordered.

How does Amazon get goods to these local warehouses? If there is some kind of central distribution network then that might generate more volume on the links to the warehouses, but any trunk rail haul would probably be in containers which can be loaded onto a truck for the final leg to one of the non-rail-served terminals. With the appropriate equipment moving an ISO container from a train to a truck is always going to be quicker than transferring the same amount of stuff in roll cages one by one (even more so if they all have to go out at one end!).

 

[Bald Rick]

It would also significantly lengthen delivery times for those who lived some hundreds of miles from the main depot. The goods would have to travel that entire distance, including waiting for the next empty slot on a train, after they were ordered.

How does Amazon get goods to these local warehouses? If there is some kind of central distribution network then that might generate more volume on the links to the warehouses, but any trunk rail haul would probably be in containers which can be loaded onto a truck for the final leg to one of the non-rail-served terminals. With the appropriate equipment moving an ISO container from a train to a truck is always going to be quicker than transferring the same amount of stuff in roll cages one by one (even more so if they all have to go out at one end!).

Amazon has a distribution network like no other retailer, or indeed any other logistics company. Essentially there are three layers of logistics for ‘normal’ Amazon, and then a whole seperate chain for Amazon Prime. Interestingly, the logistics set up that was devised for Amazon U.K. was shown to be more efficient than the rest of Amazon’s set up and has now been replicated worldwide.

Inbound stuff for most products from suppliers to one receivable ‘Cross Dock’ centre near Coventry. This then sorts the inventory to be sent to around 15 of the 30 or so fulfilment centres (where the individual items are picked for delivery) nationwide. Many of the inbound goods will arrive in containers from the nearby rail connected logistics centres.

There’s broadly three types of fulfilment centre - one for ‘small sortable’ goods like books and stuff that fits into a small parcel less than 45cm long, one for ‘small and light’ which is bigger household stuff, and the third is ‘non sortable’ for bigger things like furniture etc.

In addition, there are some of the fulfilment centres are specialist goods - there’s one in Rugby that just does beer wine and spirits for example, one in Wales that just does shoes and clothes; these are for nationwide delivery. These specialist centres will usually receive inbound goods direct. Many of the fulfilment centres will also receive some items direct from suppliers.

Products leave the fulfilment centres to go to one of around 60 delivery stations for end delivery, where the packages are sorted down to delivery rounds for the people in white vans (other colours are available). As mentioned above, some of the fulfilment centres will distribute to delivery stations nationwide, some will distribute to delivery stations within a given region.

Prime has a different set up, with (I think) the (seperate) delivery stations each stocking a (comparatively) small range of the most popular products. This is to enable same day delivery.

The only regular bulk hauls will be from the Receiving cross dock centre in Coventry to the Fulfillment centres it serves. Even then, I’d be surprised if there were more than 15-20 wagons from Coventry to any one F.C. daily, and they will of course be spread through the day because of dock space, warehouse capacity and the number of people needed to deal with it. (Notably, the Coventry centre is over 2 miles from the nearest railway, with a lot of houses in between). The loads from each F.C. to the delivery centres will be too infrequent, variable in timing and load, and much too time critical to be considered for rail.

Apparently the next stage of the logistics network development is to link the various European networks with air freight. This is done in the US - Amazon is the only retailer with sufficient scale to have its own operation of this nature, when it rivals FedEx and UPS.


For those with an interest in logistics, it is a fascinating operation.