A railfreight thread - what future for the FOC's

[daccer]

I see that coal traffic has dipped alarmingly recently and that some of the new railfreight terminals are dormant or being used as storage areas. Allied to this the general economic malaise and things dont look too bright for the FOC's. I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what can be done - also any new flows that have started that can act as a beacon of light in the general gloom.

We do have several profitable Freight operators in this country which does show that the industry is pretty efficient and can have a future. However as we are a country that makes little and mines even less times are going to get hard and not all the FOC's might survive. I am also wondering if things have developed with the Tunnel now that the majority of the FOC's are foreign owned. Surely there must be some movement on developing this resource which does stand out as the one possible area of growth in an otherwise bleak outlook.

For DB Schenker - are they still a railfreight company or more of a property holding company and scrap merchant!

 

[Proud Salopian]

I'm always amazed at (and admire greatly) the amount of freight on Switzerland's railways. In many places (small towns, etc) it's like a modern-day version of the way it was here in Britain until the 1960s mass closures of our goods yards. Local, national and international freight is all on the railways, busily being shunted about yards and taken across the country (on some line as mixed passenger-freight trains). The Swiss show how it is done, with all types of freight, even into the 21st century. Sadly this country (the UK) is dominated by the lorry and the motorway. All business parks are connected very nicely to the road network, but never (or very rarely) to the railways, even if there's a railway line right by them. Ridiculous, but we are in Britain.

 

[daccer]

The trucking industry is insatiable and will continue to suck up freight even if the margins are tiny. It needs to be effectively regulated and there should be restrictions on what can go by road and the distances that loads can be trucked before they ahve to go by rail. The problem is we have dismantled our wagonload network and the number of bulk flows that are profitable for the FOC's is diminishing. Apart from Intermodal and boxes we see little general cargo and so the truck reigns supreme. This might be excusable on domestic routes but 20m tonnes is trucked throught the Tunnel every year. This is long distance freight that the railway must be able to compete for. By the time we are forced to do something about road emissions we will have sold our yards off for housing and scrapped our spare wagons and locos. The complete absence of freight in many areas is a major issue and shows that an unregulated railway will never work - profit and service dont always sit well together. Hence we have profitable FOC's but we carry only a % of what we used to.

 

[87015]

Not sure how you can slag EWS/DBS off as a "scrap merchant" and then say that given that they have been the only ones to try some kind of wagonload network and won far more new to rail traffic than the others who are just in the game of largely cherry picking safe profitable trunk trainload freight from each other.

 

[GearJammer]

Here we go again, someone comments on how railfrieght is struggling and the trucking industry gets tha blame again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Oswyntail]

Here we go again, someone comments on how railfrieght is struggling and the trucking industry gets tha blame again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, er, that is called competition. I believe there is a balance to be struck between the two modes, but we are nowhere near equilibrium. This, IMHO, is as a result of the different financial regimes. Like it or not (if you read anything other than RAC Foundation statistics), road transport is subsidised more than rail (OK, that'll start a flame going). But, more critically, apart from fuel and wear and tear, road costs the same for 1 as 1000 journeys, so the profit margins increase the more a truck is used. For rail. with TACs, this is almost the reverse. Road charging would level the playing field a bit.

 

[rail-britain]

I see that coal traffic has dipped alarmingly recently

That's quite common at this time of year as demand falls
Expect the number of workings to increase from about September onwards

 

[Proud Salopian]

The medium to long term future for coal is pretty bleak with coal fired power stations closing and being replaced with cleaner alternatives.

FOCs need to look to the next era in freight movements. Quite what it is I'm not sure, but I think it's back to delivering stuff from warehouse to warehouse, from port to warehouse, from factory to port, etc. Wagonloads, mixed freight, etc. Will require much infrastructure investment (essentially replacing what was lost in the 60s!) but needs to be done. ("See: Switzerland" basically!)

 

[142094]

If coal fuelled power stations do close in the next few years, most likely they'll build new ones with CCS, since coal is still relatively cheap and abundant and we have a long way to go before renewables take over a larger chunk of production.

Perhaps there should be more investment in piggyback facilities, which will take a good amount of lorries off the roads and transport them quickly, where they can be forwarded on by road where needed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Here's a not so radical idea:

Recently discussion has started up again on a huge water pipeline grid to transfer surplus water from the north to the south east where supplies are often very short. And a massively expensive and environmentally damaging reservoir bigger than Heathrow in the Thames Valley.

Well, instead of spending billions on that reservoir, pipeline network and all the extra pumping stations, why not build a fleet of 100 tonne glass lined bogie tanks and utilise a number of those stored freight locomotives and currently unused freight paths and bring the water down that way?

It wouldn't even need to be kept as sterile as the old milk tanks because it would be going into a treatment plant before being put into the local water distribution networks.

All you'd need really would be a few spurs to new loading pump facilities at the relevant reservoirs in the north and a pump out facility at the equivalent reservoirs in the south east. The pathing would be standard because pretty much every train would be identical. The technology exists - it's no different from oil facilities. The locomotives exist. The staff are there. All it needs is those spurs and pump houses plus a fleet of wagons...

 

[142094]

The same basic thing happens when you buy a bottle of water. I've heard about this plan to transport water in a massive pipeline down south, but I don't think it'll every happen. You lot down south can keep your hands off our water!

 

[daccer]

Always wondered about the self unloading container train concept which was around for awhile. Much of the network has spare sidings just no handlign equipment. There is also the option now of leasing mobile handlign equipment which keeps the cost of terminals down. I see the new depot at Bristol works like this and seems to have been opened quickly and cheaply. On top of this is the chance of moving extra deep sea containers via the Tunnel. Most container ships will stop at three or four different ports in Europe before doing the long legs (i.e to the USA or China). The cost per day of operating one of the major container ships is tens of thousands of dollars per day and the unloading and berthing portion of the voyage is a cost not a revenue - the ship needs to be in transit as much as possible to maximise profits. Why not look at a single unloading point in Europe such as felixstowe or Southampton and cut out the other calls in Europe using rail to move the boxes into Europe via the Tunnel. This will certainly curtail the voyage time and allow more roudn trips. Run the container trains at night via the tunnel and maybe the extar cost will be offset by the extra round trips for the ship.

 

[GearJammer]

FOCs need to look to the next era in freight movements. Quite what it is I'm not sure, but I think it's back to delivering stuff from warehouse to warehouse, from port to warehouse, from factory to port, etc. Wagonloads, mixed freight, etc. Will require much infrastructure investment (essentially replacing what was lost in the 60s!) but needs to be done.

Can't see it happening unfortunetly, that kinda investment would have to come from goverment and you must literally be talking billions of pounds, and i can't see any goverment coming up with that kinda money, especially in todays current economic climet!

On top of this is the chance of moving extra deep sea containers via the Tunnel. Most container ships will stop at three or four different ports in Europe before doing the long legs (i.e to the USA or China). The cost per day of operating one of the major container ships is tens of thousands of dollars per day and the unloading and berthing portion of the voyage is a cost not a revenue - the ship needs to be in transit as much as possible to maximise profits. Why not look at a single unloading point in Europe such as felixstowe or Southampton and cut out the other calls in Europe using rail to move the boxes into Europe via the Tunnel. This will certainly curtail the voyage time and allow more roudn trips. Run the container trains at night via the tunnel and maybe the extar cost will be offset by the extra round trips for the ship.

I think you'll find that if there was going to be just the one stop off point for these shipping lines in Europe then it would be at main land europe with just the UK's boxes coming through the tunnel, that said i think you underestimate just how many boxes come into the uk and i don't think the tunnel could cope with the capacity.

I think the Uk's container/intermodel transport is not to bad, if you really want to concentrate on getting trucks off the road the ones you need to concentrate on are the foreign trucks that come from all accross europe, this is the kind of stuff that should be put on a train and transported through the tunnel. As ive said in other similar threads, rail needs to do the job not just cheaper than road but as quick or quicker, in a country this size and the road and rail networks being as they are theres not alot of benefit putting stuff on trains time wise, however, if you have a load to shift from mainland europe to the uk the train should (in theory) be quicker and have the advantage.
Ideally what you need is a very large hub in the midlands where trains can run direct to from europe where they can be unloaded then trucked to there final destinations!

 

[GingerSte]

Always wondered about the self unloading container train concept which was around for awhile. Much of the network has spare sidings just no handlign equipment. There is also the option now of leasing mobile handlign equipment which keeps the cost of terminals down. I see the new depot at Bristol works like this and seems to have been opened quickly and cheaply.

It's just a thought, and it might be what you are referring to, but...

Would it be possible to put one or two mobile handlers (of the type just North of Burton station) onto a train, and then use this for unloading trains at smaller sidings? You would need a ramp/platform to get the handler onto and off of the train, but a steel ramp could be provided fairly cheaply (compared to a handler or any bigger equipment) at each depot.

The engineer in me is also thinking about a steel ramp based on a train wagon, which can be unfolded hydraulically (in a yard with enough room) to allow the handler on the adjacent wagon to get on and off of the train. This would mean that all you'd need for a loading/unloading point was a straight bit of track, road access and a tarmacced/concreted slab to work on. With flexibility like that you could vastly reduce the cost of freight.

I don't know if there are any handlers that would fit within the gauge, so this may be an issue.

 

[Drsatan]

Always wondered about the self unloading container train concept which was around for awhile. Much of the network has spare sidings just no handlign equipment. There is also the option now of leasing mobile handlign equipment which keeps the cost of terminals down. I see the new depot at Bristol works like this and seems to have been opened quickly and cheaply. On top of this is the chance of moving extra deep sea containers via the Tunnel. Most container ships will stop at three or four different ports in Europe before doing the long legs (i.e to the USA or China). The cost per day of operating one of the major container ships is tens of thousands of dollars per day and the unloading and berthing portion of the voyage is a cost not a revenue - the ship needs to be in transit as much as possible to maximise profits. Why not look at a single unloading point in Europe such as felixstowe or Southampton and cut out the other calls in Europe using rail to move the boxes into Europe via the Tunnel. This will certainly curtail the voyage time and allow more roudn trips. Run the container trains at night via the tunnel and maybe the extar cost will be offset by the extra round trips for the ship.

Some ports are very congested (like Southampton, due to the decision not to build a container terminal at Dibden Bay on the other side of Southampton Water) and ships have to queue outside to get in. This costs the shipping line time and money. If British ports, due to lack of investment, become so congested that ships have to queue outside them, then shipping lines will call at ports in Europe (like Zeebrugge) and transfer containers to Britain by road via the Chunnel. Transhipment by rail would only be possible for long-term, high-volume flows because it wouldn't be cost-effective to ship one-container at a time.

 

[GearJammer]

Some ports are very congested (like Southampton, due to the decision not to build a container terminal at Dibden Bay on the other side of Southampton Water) and ships have to queue outside to get in.

That was a big big mistake not allowing that port to be expanded, i know shipping lines have pulled ships out of southampton and sent them elsewhere coz of the poor service they get at southampton, i also read resently that the port at bristol is to be expanded to take deep sea container ships, southamptons loss is bristols gain!

 

[Mojo]

I am assuming the OP was after some long term aspirations with government policy and financial support rather than anything sensible which could be done now on a commercial basis

In which case I'll put forward my proposal for regional and subregional freight distribution and consolidation centres which would receive goods from the ports and other parts of the country by rail and would then be transported short distances to the stores or manufacturing plants by environmentally friendly road vehicles.

This could virtually eliminate long distance lorries from the roads and also solve the inefficiencies of huge numbers of monster-trucks belching out fumes and trying to negotiate their way through city centres making deliveries.

 

[Drsatan]

I am assuming the OP was after some long term aspirations with government policy and financial support rather than anything sensible which could be done now on a commercial basis

In which case I'll put forward my proposal for regional and subregional freight distribution and consolidation centres which would receive goods from the ports and other parts of the country by rail and would then be transported short distances to the stores or manufacturing plants by environmentally friendly road vehicles.

That's exactly what happened until the 1980s. Trip freights would operate from private sidings to marshalling yards, where wagons would be formed into block trains for onward transit to other marshalling yards (e.g. Kingsmoor - Severn Tunnel Junction). Trip freights conveyed the wagons to the appropriate destinations.

Unfortunately, it's cheaper (and quicker) for the time being for infrequent, low-volume freight flows to go door to door by road. I recall a few years ago there were fears that the introduction of 70 ton lorries on British roads would mean more freight traveling by road, but that doesn't seem to have happened.

As for 'environmentally friendly vehicles' electric lorries have a limited range so charging points would need to be installed in various places. The use of hydrogen fuel cells on a commercial basis to power vehicles seems a long way off: the infrastructure to produce hydrogen sustainably doesn't exist yet. The easiest solution would be to use biodiesel-fueled lorries but they'd still emit CO2, nitrates and other gases.
This could virtually eliminate long distance lorries from the roads and also solve the inefficiencies of huge numbers of monster-trucks belching out fumes and trying to negotiate their way through city centres making deliveries.[/QUOTE]

 

[jopsuk]

I work at a production site that used to use rail, but now is road-exclusive- the rail connection has mounds of spoil and permanant fencing across it, though the point work onto the mainline is still in place. In our case, it is partly a change in what the site produces and who consumes it that led to rail being dropped- much smaller volumes of higher value product going to more destinations, with more varied feedstock from various suppliers. Further, a lot of the product has to go out in freezer lorries (-18°C)- something that isn't so practical with rail?

 

[daccer]

I was inadvertently trying to advise some sort of Govt intervention in Railfreight. At the moment we have a totally unregulated market which means that road is the predominant mode of transport. However the Govt does not allow the passenger network to be run in a completely unregulated way so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they would get involved to boost railfreight.

If we don't level the playing field and try and influence more users back onto rail then we do face the prospect of a continued decline in railfreight tonnages as socio-economic forces come into play. The advent of just in time supply chains and the lack of a mineral base in the UK does make rail increasingly inefficient when it comes to freight.

 

[Oswyntail]

... monster-trucks belching out fumes and trying to negotiate their way through city centres making deliveries.

Here in Ilkley, we have three "supermarket" chains, with the resultant monsters (that insist on turning up at the busiest times of day). But two of those stores are built on ex-rail land, so would have a very simple rail connection possible. The old idea of the freight-DMU would be ideal, but was ruled out because the big road hauliers opposed it. A vast proportion of retail developments have been on railway land. Anyone for joined-up thinking?

... Further, a lot of the product has to go out in freezer lorries (-18°C)- something that isn't so practical with rail?

If it can be done in a lorry, it can be done in a truck. If we were only to stop thinking of mega-bulk loads and revert to seeing what the market requires - with an open mind - rail could easily compete.

 

[GearJammer]

huge numbers of monster-trucks

Oh how dramatic.... a monster truck eh, was it charging down the the road doing jumps and crushing cars was it?

Is there anyone on here that actually knows about trucks and there diesel engines? ...anybody know what AD Blue is?
Is there anyone on here that actually knows anything about road transport? ...other than you see big trucks going through your local town!

trying to negotiate their way through city centres making deliveries.

You seem to be forgetting...or ignoring the fact, that these trucks are delivering the goods that YOU consume!

The old idea of the freight-DMU would be ideal, but was ruled out because the big road hauliers opposed it.

Rubbish, road hauliers would'nt get a say in it, if a custermer decides to send his products by Frieght DMU, train, bus, car or even a private helicopter coz its cheaper then they will do, theres not a road haulier anywhere that can turn around and say you won't use this or that mode of transport you WILL use us!

Like ive said in the past, if you want freight off the road and onto rail then rail is gonna have to start doing the job quicker, better and cheaper than road hauliers, they can't, and never will be able to, no amount of refering to trucks as big juggernauts or monster trucks is gonna change the fact that there here to stay (and they will get bigger and heavier).

Oh... and if you want to bring in road charging to suposedly level the playing field then bring it on folks, the hauliers will put there prices up to compensate and YOU'LL pay for it at the end of the day at the tills because everyone of you use what these trucks are hauling! So next time you complain how much the cost of living is going up just imagine how much it could cost!

 

[90019]

The old idea of the freight-DMU would be ideal, but was ruled out because the big road hauliers opposed it.

You're not aware that we already have some then?

 

[Metroland]

I'm always amazed at (and admire greatly) the amount of freight on Switzerland's railways. In many places (small towns, etc) it's like a modern-day version of the way it was here in Britain until the 1960s mass closures of our goods yards. Local, national and international freight is all on the railways, busily being shunted about yards and taken across the country (on some line as mixed passenger-freight trains). The Swiss show how it is done, with all types of freight, even into the 21st century. Sadly this country (the UK) is dominated by the lorry and the motorway. All business parks are connected very nicely to the road network, but never (or very rarely) to the railways, even if there's a railway line right by them. Ridiculous, but we are in Britain.

The Swiss have a deliberate policy of moving freight to rail, for example trucks are banned at weekends.

As a transit country (which means a significant portion of freight passes through which has nothing to do with Switzlerland) there is considerable public support for moving freight off the roads and onto rail. They do have the advantage of course that Bern gauge allows piggyback freight operations.

There are several problems in the UK:

1. Much transport is left to market forces, so trucks can easily externalise costs. Here, cheapest wins and only really bulk freight is profitable. There is an argument to say cheapest isn't always best - such as factory farming, developing country slave labour, food filled with poor quality ingredients and so on. You could argue that trucks clogging up roads is undesirable and the state, like Switzlerland, could intervene. It's all down to politics, public pressure, lobbying (for and against) by interest groups.

2. Planning over the last 30-40 years has lead to a lot our light industrial parks and even heavy industry that is not rail served, and would be expensive to implement.

3. Restrictive loading gauge.

4. Intensive passenger service, often formed of very short trains.

5. Reduction is track layouts and diversionary routes - deliberate policy under BR to reduce costs. Less goods loops and extra running lines means freight is more difficult to path.

 

[daccer]

In reply to the previous question from gear jammer I owned a trucking company in the UK for 10 years. he is absolutely right when he says that on a level playing field that trucks are much more efficient than rail in the UK. The only way to get more freight onto rail is for Govt intervention to help offset some of the costs for rail. As a non-manufacturing and commodity based economy we are basically a country of importers and consumers. This means that rail does not have a traditional market. We are also a branch line from Mainland Europe and so have no through traffic. therefore if we are to see more freight on rail we have to rely on innovation, cost cutting and breaking into new markets. THis is not so easy when trucking companies run on tiny margins and we have an influx of European hauliers running into the UK with long range fuel tanks full of cheap fuel. It is a conundrum and my feeling is that the Govt doesnt really see rail as the solution to green issues - maybe in the future but not now and certainly not enough to legislate freight off the roads.

 

[Greenback]

Oh how dramatic.... a monster truck eh, was it charging down the the road doing jumps and crushing cars was it?

Is there anyone on here that actually knows about trucks and there diesel engines? ...anybody know what AD Blue is?
Is there anyone on here that actually knows anything about road transport? ...other than you see big trucks going through your local town!

You seem to be forgetting...or ignoring the fact, that these trucks are delivering the goods that YOU consume!

Rubbish, road hauliers would'nt get a say in it, if a custermer decides to send his products by Frieght DMU, train, bus, car or even a private helicopter coz its cheaper then they will do, theres not a road haulier anywhere that can turn around and say you won't use this or that mode of transport you WILL use us!

Like ive said in the past, if you want freight off the road and onto rail then rail is gonna have to start doing the job quicker, better and cheaper than road hauliers, they can't, and never will be able to, no amount of refering to trucks as big juggernauts or monster trucks is gonna change the fact that there here to stay (and they will get bigger and heavier).

Oh... and if you want to bring in road charging to suposedly level the playing field then bring it on folks, the hauliers will put there prices up to compensate and YOU'LL pay for it at the end of the day at the tills because everyone of you use what these trucks are hauling! So next time you complain how much the cost of living is going up just imagine how much it could cost!

The way that we live our lives is going to have to change. It is simply unsustainable to carry on the way we have been going for the last 40-50 years in the long term.

We will need, at some point, to return to the idea of living near to where we work, producing more of our own food, and seeking more environmentally friendly ways of moving around the goods that we need to move.

The rise in fuel prices is inevitable, as is the eventual depletion of all of our irreplaceable fossil fuels!

 

[142094]

However at the same time market forces and demand come into play again. As oil runs out, prices go up. As prices go up, it becomes more attractive to look at oil that wouldn't have been extracted previously. Take tar sands in Canada for example, an expensive process to refine and very bad for the environment, yet it is increasing year on year.

 

[Oswyntail]

Oh how dramatic.... a monster truck eh, was it charging down the the road doing jumps and crushing cars was it?

Judging by the damaged wing mirrors on delivery routes, yes

Is there anyone on here that actually knows about trucks and there diesel engines? ...anybody know what AD Blue is?
Is there anyone on here that actually knows anything about road transport? ...other than you see big trucks going through your local town! ...
You seem to be forgetting...or ignoring the fact, that these trucks are delivering the goods that YOU consume!

Far from it, which is why we consider it a problem. And it is a fairly weak argument to take refuge in "you don't know what you're talking about", especially when you do not know the background of contributors. And, by your own admission, you are giving the road-transport based view - which is fine - but the discussion is more wide-ranging.

Rubbish, road hauliers would'nt get a say in it

Presumably you are unaware of the powerful road lobby, much more vocal than that for other modes, that "persuades" the powers that be to maintain the status quo that enables road freight to stay relatively low-cost..

Like ive said in the past, if you want freight off the road and onto rail then rail is gonna have to start doing the job quicker, better and cheaper than road hauliers, they can't, and never will be able to

That's your belief, as a trucker. And, back in the 17th century, the same was probably said of horse-wagons. But the more open minded aspect of this thread was considering the possibility that hitherto underdeveloped options might turn out to be cheaper and quicker in the long run.

Oh... and if you want to bring in road charging to suposedly level the playing field then bring it on folks, the hauliers will put there prices up to compensate and YOU'LL pay for it at the end of the day at the tills because everyone of you use what these trucks are hauling! So next time you complain how much the cost of living is going up just imagine how much it could cost!

Ah yes, the road hauliers are the heroes, manfully struggling with small margins to keep the RPI down. Piffle. If haulage costs went up and customers down the line as a result decided not to buy the produce, then the haulage industry would have to reorganise to cut its own costs - possibly by actually looking at the overall market and developing the various options we have spoken about, rather than (with somewhat limited imagination) thinking that more and bigger trucks are the only way forward.

You're not aware that we already have some then?

Yes, but hardly in numbers to make a difference.
What I believe is needed, and will emerge in the long term, is companies that are in the business of moving goods from A to B, and do not see themselves as tied to any one mode, but are willing to develop appropriate mixes to suit the various markets. Stobart and Malcolm have made very small steps in that direction, but we need more imaginative innovation.

 

[Metroland]

Actually the difference between the two is often pennies. We import large amounts of milk, for example, from abroad because it's about 1p cheaper per pint. There are many, many other examples of where competition is undercut because of very small differences. The consumer would notice very little significant difference - apart from clearer roads.

Railfreight in Europe tends to be uncompetitive because of compartmentalisation of national systems, inefficient working practices and poor local and national government planning.

Government intervention isn't always the answer, and 'well meaning' laws can make things worse. The US freight system which is the most cost effective railfreight system in the world and carries over 40% of US freight is entirely free market and is vertically integrated, unlike in Europe where the EU insist on separate accounting for infrastructure and train providers.

 

[90019]

Yes, but hardly in numbers to make a difference.

Well, we have 25 of them. They're only 2 car, but could be extended.
Sorry for coming across as rather abrupt last night, was extremely irritable

I do think we should have them extended though, and that the FOCs should have them rather than just NR.