HS2: useful additions to attract more passengers?

[BayPaul]

A very large number of foreign tourists and foreign residents

Well quite. I would imagine that the fastest way from London to Stratford on Avon would be via HS2. This is an obvious tourist route. Change at Curzon Street is an easy instruction. Disembark at Curzon Street, walk to Moor Street would make me think about taking a different means of transport.

I have walked around Central Birmingham a few times, and have no idea how easy it is to walk between the current stations, let alone how to walk to one that doesn't exist yet. I know from these forums that they are all close together, but if they are basically in the same building or across a single road, then a name like "Moor Street High Speed Station" would seem to have benefits.

 

[Bald Rick]

A very large number of foreign tourists and foreign residents

Very large? Really? I must have missed them in the decade I lived there.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my idea for a Curzon Street throat connection to both Coventry and Cheltenham Lines and relationship to other lines. Note the WCML diversion and flat junction at the terminal throat. Full-length trains could come in from NE and NW branches of HS2 and split with portions splitting off for classic destinations in SE or SW. Platform usage would be: #1-#3 London, #4-5 SW/SE - NE/NW, #6-7 NE/NW - SW/SE.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's my idea for a Curzon Street throat connection to both Coventry and Cheltenham Lines and relationship to other lines. Note the WCML diversion and flat junction at the terminal throat. Full-length trains could come in from NE and NW branches of HS2 and split with portions splitting off for classic destinations in SE or SW. Platform usage would be: #1-#3 London, #4-5 SW/SE - NE/NW, #6-7 NE/NW - SW/SE.
View attachment 76769


View attachment 76768

The level differences are enormous though. There would be at least a 10-15 metre vertical gap between the cyan and red lines at the ‘cross country connections’ bit.

 

[MarkyT]

The level differences are enormous though. There would be at least a 10-15 metre vertical gap between the cyan and red lines at the ‘cross country connections’ bit.

If the Aston line flyover wasn't there, it could make levels much easier, including for HS2 itself as well as it wouldn't need to climb immediately from the platform ends to pass over the line. There was an idea years ago to divert the Cross City line via Lawley Street with a new chord from Saltley to get back to Aston for the 'Heartlands' scheme I recall Duddeston station could be relocated under 400m away from its current site. The biggest problem would be crossing the FL yard access.
Something like this, with curve radius about 200m:

 

[Ianno87]

Why are we *still* trying to re-design Phase 1?! It is in law and instructed to be built as is.

 

[si404]

Why are we *still* trying to re-design Phase 1?! It is in law and instructed to be built as is.

This is add ons for later.

Like saying "why are we trying to re-design Crossrail" with HS2 putting Old Oak Common station on it.

 

[route101]

Id have a spur heading SW to Bristol. Fantasy , but you have services from NE and Scotland to SW

 

[MarkyT]

Id have a spur heading SW to Bristol. Fantasy , but you have services from NE and Scotland to SW

A spur sounds nice, but that would be additional trains, additional paths on the NE and NW legs bypassing Birmingham. Reversing at Curzon Street, on the other hand, would use the Birmingham paths planned already, extended to new destinations, and allow trains to be split to suit classic network platforms on those routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

If the Aston line flyover wasn't there, it could make levels much easier, including for HS2 itself as well as it wouldn't need to climb immediately from the platform ends to pass over the line. There was an idea years ago to divert the Cross City line via Lawley Street with a new chord from Saltley to get back to Aston for the 'Heartlands' scheme I recall Duddeston station could be relocated under 400m away from its current site. The biggest problem would be crossing the FL yard access.
Something like this, with curve radius about 200m:
View attachment 76779

That was in the days when Cross City was 4 tph max, XC to the NE was hourly, non XCs ran via Camp Hill, etc etc. There’s no way you could fit all the current service heading to Aston and Derby via Lawley St now.

 

[D365]

This is add ons for later.

Like saying "why are we trying to re-design Crossrail" with HS2 putting Old Oak Common station on it.

Adding a station onto the existing Crossrail route is not a redesign. Especially when it’s been planned from the start.

 

[si404]

Adding a station onto the existing Crossrail route is not a redesign. Especially when it’s been planned from the start.

adding a chord to be built with phase 2 at basically the same time in the project life cycle is very much analogous.

OK, that plan has morphed into redesigning something for which the contracts had been signed, and isn't an addition as the topic suggests, but a redesign. But the thread itself, which seemed to be where Ianno's post was addressed to, is meant to be for additions not redesigns.

 

[edwin_m]

Adding a station onto the existing Crossrail route is not a redesign. Especially when it’s been planned from the start.

Crossrail was well into the design process before HS2 and the idea of Old Oak came along. I was involved with the design just before that and turnback sidings were planned between Paddington and the GWML junction because there wasn't enough capacity to run the full Crossrail service onto the GWML relief lines (for example to turn back in the depot reception roads). I assume these were actually built but that they've now found some way of making capacity for more of the Crossrail service to continue to Old Oak when that opens. The local councils also wanted to add a station to Crossrail on that section, can't remember exactly where, but I guess Old Oak meets that need as well.

 

[D365]

Crossrail was well into the design process before HS2 and the idea of Old Oak came along. I was involved with the design just before that and turnback sidings were planned between Paddington and the GWML junction because there wasn't enough capacity to run the full Crossrail service onto the GWML relief lines (for example to turn back in the depot reception roads). I assume these were actually built but that they've now found some way of making capacity for more of the Crossrail service to continue to Old Oak when that opens. The local councils also wanted to add a station to Crossrail on that section, can't remember exactly where, but I guess Old Oak meets that need as well.

Ah right, I just assumed that there was always some kind of plan for a station between Paddington and Acton. As far as I know, OOC Crossrail will be a four platform station, so perhaps there is some kind of plan to extend the dedicated Crossrail pair of tracks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah right, I just assumed that there was always some kind of plan for a station between Paddington and Acton. As far as I know, OOC Crossrail will be a four platform station, so perhaps there is some kind of plan to extend the dedicated Crossrail pair of tracks.

I don’t believe there is an extension of dedicated Crossrail tracks.. It is also really the OOC GW reliefs as well, not just a Crossrail station. The next significant limitation on Crossrail frequency “west of Paddington” comes up at Acton, because of the freight yard, which is further west than OOC.

 

[edwin_m]

Crossrail turnback sidings are planned at OOC. Due to lack of space I believe they rise up on a flyover (between the Reliefs?) and swing off to the north. So the plan must be to run more Crossrail trains to OOC but not beyond.

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail turnback sidings are planned at OOC. Due to lack of space I believe they rise up on a flyover (between the Reliefs?) and swing off to the north. So the plan must be to run more Crossrail trains to OOC but not beyond.

Probably drifting into off-topic levels of detail, but the layout is described in something called “HS2 AP2”. (Additional Provisions 2). It is the GW Up relief that will be on a flyover route:

Grade separated junction to provide three turnback sidings for the Crossrail service and passive provision for a West Coast Main Line (WCML) Crossrail Link (AP2-004-004)
The Bill provided for two turnback sidings for Crossrail on the GWML, at the Old Oak Common Station GWML platforms.
The amendment will provide new permanent infrastructure to enable up to 12 westbound trains per hour, to be turned back on land to the west of Old Oak Common station. This is provided by:
 three permanent turnback sidings from the proposed station at Old Oak Common, terminating to the south of Wells House Road providing areas for trains to turn back; and
 a flyover on the realigned GWML up-relief line to provide a grade-separation junction (refer to map CT-05-009a and CT-06-009a and visualisation LV-15-001 (SES and AP2 ES Volume 2, CFA4 Map Book)). The flyover would measure approximately 900m long and rise to 18m above Old Oak Common Lane.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/442202/SES_and_AP2_ES_Volume_2_CFA4.pdf

 

[The Planner]

AP stands for additional provisions, i think they got up to AP4 for the Hybrid bill. The turn backs were considered for the alignment for the Crossrail proposal to Tring.