My Idea - Extend Huddersfield - Castleford services to York

[backontrack]

Don't know if this is possible. But rather than extend to york could u extend from castleford to sherburn then reverse there and run to selby terminating there. You could then run all the hull to york services via the main line rather than sherburn.

How is that a better solution? Demand from Sherburn to York likely exceeds that from Castleford to Selby.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't know if this is possible. But rather than extend to york could u extend from castleford to sherburn then reverse there and run to selby terminating there. You could then run all the hull to york services via the main line rather than sherburn.

No reversal facility at Sherburn (why would you want to?) - you would need to run on to platform 3 at Church Fenton.

 

[leedslad82]

How is that a better solution? Demand from Sherburn to York likely exceeds that from Castleford to Selby.

I was more thinking of the demand from sherburn to selby and the limited capacity on approach to york via church Fenton

 

[JonathanH]

I was more thinking of the demand from sherburn to selby and the limited capacity on approach to york via church Fenton

Yes, but how would people get from Sherburn-in-Elmet to York?

 

[backontrack]

Yes, but how would people get from Sherburn-in-Elmet to York?

This was my point. Sherburn-York demand > Sherburn-Selby demand.

The Castleford-York extension is a more sensible idea.

 

[leedslad82]

Yes, but how would people get from Sherburn-in-Elmet to York?

Change at selby. Or use the derne valley service

 

[backontrack]

Change at selby. Or use the derne valley service

That's worse than the current service. Extending the Huddersfield-Castleford service to York is better as a way of speeding up York-Hull services, because more people travel from Sherburn to York than to Selby, and more people would travel from Castleford to York than to Selby. York is a far bigger market for passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Plus far more people will want to travel from Normanton and Castleford to York than to Selby.

 

[backontrack]

Plus far more people will want to travel from Normanton and Castleford to York than to Selby.

Definitely more. The only 'argument for' would be the creation of a new Wakefield to Selby direct service, but I think an increased Wakefield–York frequency would create more demand than a new Wakefield–Selby service anyway.

 

[YorksLad12]

Pointed here from a different thread. Hello!

Given that they have to maintain route knowledge anyway, wouldn't it be a better idea to extend TPE's stopping service from Huddersfield (which was supposed to be extending to Kirkgate) to York via Castleford? Two services per hour between Huddersfield and Wakefield K seems excessive, although I agree that an hourly service at Normanton is poor, and should be two per hour. Preferably better spaced than at present.

Cas is a bit chicken-and-egg. If you reopen platform 2, there will be calls to reinstate services to York. If the services came first, there would be calls for platform 2 to be reinstated. On the bright side, you don't need a bridge; there's level access off the western end of the platform, and an underpass (which might need be a bit steep, but cheaper to fix than building a footbridge).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Pointed here from a different thread. Hello!

Given that they have to maintain route knowledge anyway, wouldn't it be a better idea to extend TPE's stopping service from Huddersfield (which was supposed to be extending to Kirkgate) to York via Castleford? Two services per hour between Huddersfield and Wakefield K seems excessive, although I agree that an hourly service at Normanton is poor, and should be two per hour. Preferably better spaced than at present.

Cas is a bit chicken-and-egg. If you reopen platform 2, there will be calls to reinstate services to York. If the services came first, there would be calls for platform 2 to be reinstated. On the bright side, you don't need a bridge; there's level access off the western end of the platform, and an underpass (which might need be a bit steep, but cheaper to fix than building a footbridge).

The Manchester stopper is extending to Kirkgate simply to get it out of the way of fast services at Huddersfield (as with more six-car workings there won't be room in Huddersfield to turn back both stoppers if one of them is a double). Not to add capacity to service with such high demand that it ran with a 153 before Covid, and now runs with a 150 but only a few trips per day. A 185 (or two) would be huge overprovision for Castleford even with a York extension. I'd like to see it happen at some point but with a sensible approach in terms of stock used.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is TPE to Kirkgate still happening though? It wasn't introduced in May in the end was it?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Is TPE to Kirkgate still happening though? It wasn't introduced in May in the end was it?

do you mean Northern’s Lincoln to Leeds?

 

[YorksLad12]

Is TPE to Kirkgate still happening though? It wasn't introduced in May in the end was it?

No. Looking at RTT for Huddersfield, the now 6-car stoppers from Leeds terminate on P4 then run empty out to Marsden and back so that the stopper from Man Vic can also terminate on P4. If I read correctly, that double unit then does the run to Leeds, the empty comes back onto P4 and heads out to Man Vic. But only if I read correctly

 

[nr758123]

No. Looking at RTT for Huddersfield, the now 6-car stoppers from Leeds terminate on P4 then run empty out to Marsden and back so that the stopper from Man Vic can also terminate on P4. If I read correctly, that double unit then does the run to Leeds, the empty comes back onto P4 and heads out to Man Vic. But only if I read correctly

Is the empty stock move to Marsden and back only possible because fewer expresses (2tph instead of 4) are currently running between Victoria and Leeds?

 

[YorksLad12]

Is the empty stock move to Marsden and back only possible because fewer expresses (2tph instead of 4) are currently running between Victoria and Leeds?

There are still four fasts per hour through that route. If the xx00 from Leeds isn't running it might be taking that path. Frankly, if they're doing what they seem to be doing I'm impressed by the ingenuity.

 

[nr758123]

There are still four fasts per hour through that route. If the xx00 from Leeds isn't running it might be taking that path. Frankly, if they're doing what they seem to be doing I'm impressed by the ingenuity.

Current (Covid) timetable appears to show only 3 fasts per hour off-peak (from Leeds at xx15 and xx45 to Victoria, plus the Hull to Piccadilly) and some extras at peak times.

 

[yorksrob]

No. Looking at RTT for Huddersfield, the now 6-car stoppers from Leeds terminate on P4 then run empty out to Marsden and back so that the stopper from Man Vic can also terminate on P4. If I read correctly, that double unit then does the run to Leeds, the empty comes back onto P4 and heads out to Man Vic. But only if I read correctly

Ah, so that's what they're using the loop at Marsden for !

 

[YorksLad12]

Current (Covid) timetable appears to show only 3 fasts per hour off-peak (from Leeds at xx15 and xx45 to Victoria, plus the Hull to Piccadilly) and some extras at peak times.

Really? Could have sworn I'd seen departures from Leeds at xx07, xx15, xx30 and xx45. I remember that the xx30 was missing but thought it had been reinstated - unless those are the peak extras that I've been seeing? The xx00 departure is/was usually the class 68 (which is hard to miss).

Also: we're going off-topic . My original point holds though, that extending the TPE service makes sense as there's route knowledge to retain; but I agree that neither operator extending to York makes sense unless there's a demand from Wakefield we're not previously seen?

 

[J-P_L]

No. Looking at RTT for Huddersfield, the now 6-car stoppers from Leeds terminate on P4 then run empty out to Marsden and back so that the stopper from Man Vic can also terminate on P4. If I read correctly, that double unit then does the run to Leeds, the empty comes back onto P4 and heads out to Man Vic. But only if I read correctly

Not quite. The Leeds to Huddersfield stopper terminates in platform 4 at xx:19, then runs ECS to Marsden into the loop. Once the Redcar passes Marsden that unit then follows it ECS into platform 8 to form the xx:49 Huddersfield to Leeds stopper.

The Manchester Picc stopper terminates and stays in platform 4 at xx:40 and starts back to Picc at xx:53.

 

[nr758123]

Also: we're going off-topic .

Don't tell the mods. I was looking at it from the point of view of whether running the train to Marsden and back to get it out of the way was only practicable because of Covid related service reductions. Marsden and Slaithwaite could benefit from a half-hourly service (not under present circumstances, of course), it's roughly on the opposite half-hour from the regular hourly service and it runs through to Leeds which would be another plus point.

My original point holds though, that extending the TPE service makes sense as there's route knowledge to retain; but I agree that neither operator extending to York makes sense unless there's a demand from Wakefield we're not previously seen?

The trouble with extending a stopping service over a much longer route is its impact on reliability. We saw that with the May 2018 timetable. If there is demand for a Wakefield-Castleford-York service, extending the Manchester-Huddersfield stopper is not the way to do it.

 

[DB]

The fact that Castleford has no services at all to York, the main centre of employment to the East, is pretty poor. Granted, the numbers commuting to Leeds will be larger, but there will also be a not-insignificant number going to York - and currently they will all be going by car.

 

[LittleAH]

The fact that it has no services at all to York, the main centre of employment to the East, is pretty poor. Granted, the numbers commuting to Leeds will be larger, but there will also be a not-insignificant number going to York - and currently they will all be going by car.

I strongly suspect that TPE may run a service between Manchester and York via Wakefield and Castleford once TRU is completed.

 

[Bigman]

I guess they would need to have a pretty good reason to re-open platform 2 other than for just the hourly Huddersfield service. Now if they were to extend the Huddersfield service to serve Sherburn and Church Fenton, that might help the case.

 

[LMS 4F]

I guess they would need to have a pretty good reason to re-open platform 2 other than for just the hourly Huddersfield service. Now if they were to extend the Huddersfield service to serve Sherburn and Church Fenton, that might help the case.

This has been discussed before. A lot of money will be needed mainly to get access to platform 2 via a bridge or from the road at the back. Either one would have to be disabled friendly, who will
pick up the bill for that based on one train an hour to York?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I strongly suspect that TPE may run a service between Manchester and York via Wakefield and Castleford once TRU is completed.

I can't see TPE choosing to omit the cash-cow that is Leeds once every hour. Maybe while the upgrade work is taking place and capacity is restricted I could see it. Any prospect of a service to York (which I agree should be a no-brainer despite what all the amateur bean-counters on here say) will be in the hands of the local operator rather than a wannabe Intercity franchise.

 

[LittleAH]

I can't see TPE choosing to omit the cash-cow that is Leeds once every hour. Maybe while the upgrade work is taking place and capacity is restricted I could see it. Any prospect of a service to York (which I agree should be a no-brainer despite what all the amateur bean-counters on here say) will be in the hands of the local operator rather than a wannabe Intercity franchise.

You might not be able to see it, but there are plenty of people who can. Especially as A) Franchising is dead and B) That route is going to be very heavily used by TPE as a diversionary route.

 

[Iskra]

I can't see TPE choosing to omit the cash-cow that is Leeds once every hour. Maybe while the upgrade work is taking place and capacity is restricted I could see it. Any prospect of a service to York (which I agree should be a no-brainer despite what all the amateur bean-counters on here say) will be in the hands of the local operator rather than a wannabe Intercity franchise.

But a share of Wakefield to Manchester/Huddersfield and York/Further North to Wakefield might make up for it?

 

[LMS 4F]

I can't see TPE choosing to omit the cash-cow that is Leeds once every hour. Maybe while the upgrade work is taking place and capacity is restricted I could see it. Any prospect of a service to York (which I agree should be a no-brainer despite what all the amateur bean-counters on here say) will be in the hands of the local operator rather than a wannabe Intercity franchise.

I am perhaps one of the bean counters. I would like to see a direct service to York from Cas but I just can’t see it being anyone’s priority no matter how much it may be desired.
Perhaps the best chance was a few years ago when the West York’s PTE seemed to have a lot more money.

 

[Watershed]

I am perhaps one of the bean counters. I would like to see a direct service to York from Cas but I just can’t see it being anyone’s priority no matter how much it may be desired.
Perhaps the best chance was a few years ago when the West York’s PTE seemed to have a lot more money.

Why would they subsidise something that operates within their jurisdiction for perhaps 10% of the journey, and serves no intra-jurisdictional flows?

Without having looked into it in any detail, I'd have thought you would be best off operating in the same path each hour as the Pontefract Baghill service uses every 4 or so hours. And then potentially binning off the Baghill service entirely, and closing that station.

Of course it's quite possible that the gap left when the Baghill service doesn't run is filled by freight or ECS moves.