My Idea - Extend Huddersfield - Castleford services to York

[yorksrob]

Split two 153s? Last time I checked Church Fenton wasn’t permissive and even if it was, what a ludicrous idea.

If this all hinges on the Hull <> York going via the main line (vastly quicker by coach I suspect if done properly), Sheffield <> York being so low in frequency that you can run Castleford <> York only every two hours (that sort of frequency doesn’t make modal share), and then people going Sherburn <> Selby have to go by bus (admittedly South Milford to Selby could easily be half-hourly) then why are we not just offering a bus from Castleford to York? We don’t expect many people to use the service so a bus taking in Garforth and Tadcaster and perhaps extended at its southern end to Pontefract could be helpful.

The equally sensible alternative is to extend the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford around to Pontefract Monkhill and up to York; giving Pontefract an hourly service to York and then the Dearne Valley just being peak hour.

You'll forgive me a bit of blue sky thinking, but if the Sherburn - Selby flow is that significant, then it seems worthwhile giving due consideration of how to save it.

That said, do we really think that a Sherburn - Selby flow is likely to be greater than Normanton/Castleford - York ? You suggest Cass - York should be a bus (even though that would presumably involve a change of mode for Normanton people), but perhaps we should be diverting the Sherburn - Selby flow, preferably to a secent South Milford service, rather than depriving the five towns.

TBH, this is the one good idea I've seen on the thread.

The rest seem to be along the lines of "this existing service is poorly used, so we might as well do something - anything - to try to make it viable - especially an idea to restore a regular service onto a bit of generally unused route through fairly empty countryside". I'm not convinced that the "Deighton and Mirfield to York" market is that big (in fact, are there even commercial bus services from *Castleford* to York these days?)

Two points, firstly:

1. The Huddersfield - Wakefield service only runs to Castleford because one unit can't reliably do the round trip from Huddersfield to Wakefield in an hour (a round trip that is less than twenty five miles, as the cross flies) - similarly it takes two DMUs to provide an hourly Huddersfield to Bradford service (again, under twenty five miles round trip as the crow flies). And we wonder why the Provincial network is so heavily subsidised
2. If Huddersfield - Wakefield had been closed by Dr Beeching we'd have people demanding it's re-opening, promises that it could sustain several trains per hour, stuff about "why does everything have to go via Leeds" etc. However, the reality is that the West Yorkshire routes that don't serve Leeds are pretty quiet affairs - planning a service from Huddersfield to York that avoids Leeds (and takes so long that it'll get overtaken by at least a couple of the four Huddersfield - York trains per hour) seems a waste of resources.

I'm not convinced that Wakefield needs a second York service per hour, but if Wakefield must have a second York service per hour (there's obviously already the XC services that take under forty five minutes, even with the long dwell at Leeds) then my preference would be:

1. Wait until Northern finally start their proposed Sheffield - Westgate - Leeds service (and hope that they find something better than a two coach 195!)
2. Divert the Sheffield - Castleford service through to York each hour
3. If 75mph paths along the ECML into York are restricted, you could limit the Castleford - York section to the hours when the Pontefract - York service isn't running through Sherburn (i.e. one path per hour at the York end, but alternating between "Sheffield via Castleford" and "Sheffield via Pontefract")
4. Replace the Castleford - Leeds part of the ex-Sheffield service with a (second) Knottingley - Pontefract - Castleford - Leeds service
5. Now that there's two reasonably fast Sheffield - Leeds services per hour (roughly forty five minutes journey time for thirty miles as the crow flies, so not mega fast), stop one of the Sheffield - Kirkgate - Leeds services at Darton and the other at Normanton once per hour
6. As a speculative thing, you could then consider cutting the XC service at Leeds (there's already two TPE services per hour from Leeds to Newcastle, one of which will extend to Edinburgh, the Voyagers are in more need elsewhere, Birmingham to Newcastle is already faster via Doncaster, so use the freed up Voyagers elsewhere)

That would give Knottingley/Pontefract a better commuter service into Leeds (which would be much more useful), it would give Barnsley a link to the ECML (bearing in mind that Barnsley is pretty badly connected, whilst Huddersfield/ Wakefield already have ECML services), it would have more routes that travelled in fairly straight lines (rather than the current nonsense of Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds and the curvet that a Huddersfield - Castleford - York service would have to take to avoid Leeds).

Not a major priority, in the grand scheme of things (when plenty of existing diesel services are crying out for additional capacity!), but more useful than some other suggestions.

I do think that Normanton needs two trains an hour to Leeds.

That said, other aspects of your idea could work, although there might be people from stations South of Barnsley who travel to Leeds who would be disadvantaged. As a regular on the Hallam stopper, there are reasonable numbers who stay on past Normanton, and I can't imagine they're all going to Darton.

 

[IanXC]

The equally sensible alternative is to extend the Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford around to Pontefract Monkhill and up to York; giving Pontefract an hourly service to York and then the Dearne Valley just being peak hour.

Of course the other way of dealing with this problem would be to run this Sheffield to York to Kirkgate, then Pontefract (reverse), Castleford then York. Reversing at Castleford is somewhat difficult due to the sheer number of services using the single platform whereas there's a bit more capacity at Pontefract or Knottingley, and it preserves the Castleford - York journey time.

All these ideas of running things both ways through Castleford and calling there presupposes infrastructure works in any case. Either reinstating platform 2 or providing a crossover to the east of the station as I don't believe it's possible to depart platform 1 towards York.

Selby's demand for Sherburn comes principally from the number of employment sites around Sherburn station. Travel on services at the right time and there's a distinct market, this area being a key employment site in the district, with employers such as Optare, Next and Wincanton coming immediately to mind.

There is definitely something to be said for revisiting the service patterns in this area. Sheffield to Leeds via Castleford really does strike of BR ticking boxes. Quite what the answer is I'm not sure but there's definitely some good options been posted thus far.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course the other way of dealing with this problem would be to run this Sheffield to York to Kirkgate, then Pontefract (reverse), Castleford then York. Reversing at Castleford is somewhat difficult due to the sheer number of services using the single platform whereas there's a bit more capacity at Pontefract or Knottingley, and it preserves the Castleford - York journey time.

Unfortunately, that would be less attractive for me personally, as it would miss out Normanton.

 

[VT 390]

That said, other aspects of your idea could work, although there might be people from stations South of Barnsley who travel to Leeds who would be disadvantaged. As a regular on the Hallam stopper, there are reasonable numbers who stay on past Normanton, and I can't imagine they're all going to Darton.

Is it not quicker to change at Barnsley anyway for stations south of there and as it would be a same platform change it is not really that much of an inconvenience.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it not quicker to change at Barnsley anyway for stations south of there and as it would be a same platform change it is not really that much of an inconvenience.

It depends how much of a wait you've got.

 

[VT 390]

It depends how much of a wait you've got.

If the overall journey is faster does it really matter how long the wait is, as long as the station where you change has seating and shelters (which Barnsley does)? In the current timetable I think it is only about a 10 minute wait in each direction anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

If the overall journey is faster does it really matter how long the wait is, as long as the station where you change has seating and shelters (which Barnsley does)? In the current timetable I think it is only about a 10 minute wait in each direction anyway.

Maybe.

I don't travel between Leeds and those stations, so I can't comment on whether it makes a better journey.

On the subject of connections, those between York and Normanton at Leeds seem to have deteriorated quite substantially of late, so a through service would be welcome.

 

[30907]

(Hull-York) is hourly already.

Indeed it is, I've added the missing half upthread.

 

[Glenn1969]

Presume if there was a market for a Pontefract/Castleford- Sherburn- York service the existing one through Baghill would be more than the current 3 trains a day?

 

[158756]

If the overall journey is faster does it really matter how long the wait is, as long as the station where you change has seating and shelters (which Barnsley does)? In the current timetable I think it is only about a 10 minute wait in each direction anyway.

In the direction towards Sheffield the faster service only leaves Leeds 6 minutes after the Sheffield via Castleford train, so it's 6 minutes saved at the cost of 10 minutes on a cold platform and the risk of missing the connection. I wouldn't do it. Towards Leeds you can save 10 minutes.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Castleford to York by train would be really quick. You wouldn't run a bus for that; it's a long way by bus.

A Castleford to York train or bus wouldn't be viable on its own (Tadcaster and Garforth are already well served) but the issue here is that we have a train that goes beyond Castleford and it would benefit many of those places to extend the service to York.

It would involve a reversal and would make the journey time much less attractive for journeys like York to Normanton, but on the plus side you could probably abolish the Dearne Valley service completely if you did that, and Pontefract would benefit significantly.

I don't really know what the best answer is, but extending the service in some shape or form to York does seem a good idea to me, at least in principle.

Well my mathematics aren't great at the best of times but the stations a 'straight Castleford extension' would call at would be:
- Huddersfield [4,900,000 usage annually]
- Deighton (?) [80,000 annually]
- Mirfield [450,000 annually]
- Wakefield Kirkgate [520,000 annually]
- Normanton [220,000 annually]
- Castleford [540,000 annually]

Huddersfield <> York would obviously be on TransPennine Express if nothing else for journey time and frequency combined. Deighton is a whole 220 people using it a day (average) meaning it's better either to send those folk via Leeds (obvious), and Mirfield would be similarly better via Leeds. This leaves Kirkgate (better facilities on Cross Country via Leeds), Normanton (hardly a major market) and Castleford. If the service was two-hourly direct due to pathing, that wouldn't be attractive. At least if it went via Pontefract you'd get an hourly Castleford and Pontefract <> York, as well as an hourly Huddersfield and Wakefield <> Pontefract which could prove equally popular. It wouldn't have an excessive journey time being about 40-43 minutes.

 

[yorksrob]

Well my mathematics aren't great at the best of times but the stations a 'straight Castleford extension' would call at would be:
- Huddersfield [4,900,000 usage annually]
- Deighton (?) [80,000 annually]
- Mirfield [450,000 annually]
- Wakefield Kirkgate [520,000 annually]
- Normanton [220,000 annually]
- Castleford [540,000 annually]

Huddersfield <> York would obviously be on TransPennine Express if nothing else for journey time and frequency combined. Deighton is a whole 220 people using it a day (average) meaning it's better either to send those folk via Leeds (obvious), and Mirfield would be similarly better via Leeds. This leaves Kirkgate (better facilities on Cross Country via Leeds), Normanton (hardly a major market) and Castleford. If the service was two-hourly direct due to pathing, that wouldn't be attractive. At least if it went via Pontefract you'd get an hourly Castleford and Pontefract <> York, as well as an hourly Huddersfield and Wakefield <> Pontefract which could prove equally popular. It wouldn't have an excessive journey time being about 40-43 minutes.

The "better facilities via Cross Country" argument is pretty meaningless as it's an hourly service. If the service via Castleford is nearer to the time you want to travel, you'll catch that one.

I also suspect that Normanton passenger numbers are underestimated somewhat due to metrocard use etc.

 

[Starmill]

I have occasionally wondered if the services that run between York and Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill might be withdrawn and the resources redeployed to extend the services from Castleford towards York.

I don't really have the time or access to gen to quite guess what might be possible without additional resources at the moment, though. Would it be enough, for example, to extend 1 train from Huddersfield every 3 hours?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I have occasionally wondered if the services that run between York and Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill might be withdrawn and the resources redeployed to extend the services from Castleford towards York.

I don't really have the time or access to gen to quite guess what might be possible without additional resources at the moment, though. Would it be enough, for example, to extend 1 train from Huddersfield every 3 hours?

Anything less than at least hourly would genuinely be pointless. This is why the idea of the Sherburn <> Selby services being two-hourly is such a pain. This is why you'd be better concentrating on a half-hourly South Milford <> Selby for example to make that particular flow more worthwhile against the slight inconvenience of a fold-up bike or walking journey into Sherburn. If Castleford <> York is seriously worthwhile doing, then doing it via Pontefract and withdrawing all but one/two peak Dearne Valley services could be the way to go. Indeed, you might even suggest operating a Cross Country service that way instead early doors / late night to keep up the service but as a 4/220 and calling at Baghill, therefore continuing to occupy an existing path between Colton and York but little more.

 

[Starmill]

Anything less than at least hourly would genuinely be pointless.

Why? Towns like Aberdovey, Barmouth, Porthmadog and Pwllheli make great use of two-hourly services. Do you mean that those services have no value because they're not hourly?

The suggestion of a long-distance train from Birmingham or the South West to York or Newcastle calling in Pontefract is somewhat optimistic?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Why? Towns like Aberdovey, Barmouth, Porthmadog and Pwllheli make great use of two-hourly services. Do you mean that those services have no value because they're not hourly?

The suggestion of a long-distance train from Birmingham or the South West to York or Newcastle calling in Pontefract is somewhat optimistic?

In rural situations where two-hourly is all that can be realistically achieved and local transport and roads are dreadful it’s different. In the respect of Castleford to York we’re not on the Cambrian Coast.

 

[geoffk]

I meant to reply to your earlier post but just got distracted.

Going to this point explicitly, you are saying it ‘simply needs rolling stock and staff’ but we obviously are discussing things like pathing and what not as well, meaning this isn’t ‘simply’ at all.

A second platform/bridge would be required at Castleford. However the route via Castleford is used by TPE late at night for route knowledge purposes so must be up to passenger standards.

 

[LMS 4F]

Why? Towns like Aberdovey, Barmouth, Porthmadog and Pwllheli make great use of two-hourly services. Do you mean that those services have no value because they're not hourly?

The suggestion of a long-distance train from Birmingham or the South West to York or Newcastle calling in Pontefract is somewhat optimistic?

Long distance trains in the 1980s called at Pontefract but were moved to go either via Doncaster or Leeds as was discussed in an earlier post. Not long after Pontefract Baghill was closed and became another unmanned station as well as the York to Sheffield service being cut back.

 

[geoffk]

Long distance trains in the 1980s called at Pontefract but were moved to go either via Doncaster or Leeds as was discussed in an earlier post. Not long after Pontefract Baghill was closed and became another unmanned station as well as the York to Sheffield service being cut back.

Some of the route changes in this area were because of mining subsidence, which also affected the old Midland route via Cudworth.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I only suggest two trains a day in each direction at Baghill. In both cases, relatively early so people can more easily undertake Pontefract <> Sheffield. Not sure how you’d counteract the issue during the day but if you’re doing a Huddersfield <> Kirkgate <> Castleford <> Monkhill <> York every hour one assumes you could connect in off a fast service from Sheffield via Barnsley instead of going along the Dearne Valley if you make the pathing fit.

 

[Starmill]

In rural situations where two-hourly is all that can be realistically achieved and local transport and roads are dreadful it’s different. In the respect of Castleford to York we’re not on the Cambrian Coast.

You fall into the trap, again, of assuming that your area can support services you want and that other areas are "rural" and should get by with less. I bet the Cambrian Coast line trains have rather better load factors than Huddersfield to Castleford services...

The reality is I made a practical suggestion that might have proven an interesting way to redeploy resources. Your suggestion is simply more resources for yourself (which, in the case of Northern, everyone else is expected to pay for).

 

[158756]

You fall into the trap, again, of assuming that your area can support services you want and that other areas are "rural" abd should get by with less. I bet the Cambrian Coast line trains have rather better load factors than Huddersfield to Castleford services...

The reality is I made a practical suggestion that might have proven an interesting way to redeploy resources. Your suggestion is simply more resources for yourself (which, in the case of Northern, everyone else is expected to pay for).

In very isolated areas low frequencies attract some use because alternative public transport is non-existent, driving slow and stressful and the waiting time doesn't matter so much when the journey takes several hours. In more populated areas two-hourly (or three times a day like Pontefract Baghill) services are just a waste of money because no one will organise their life around that timetable when there are so many better options. Even the Tube would probably carry fresh air if it only ran every two hours. Either a route should justify a sufficient frequency to be useful - which depends on the circumstances - 15 minutes failed in Oldham - or it probably shouldn't run at all.

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst two hourly isn't ideal, I think it's regular/frequent enough not to be entirely useless.

As an example, the Hallam stopper has been 2-hourly on a Sunday all the time I've been here, yet you still get plenty of people travelling to/from Normanton.

 

[Starmill]

In very isolated areas low frequencies attract some use because alternative public transport is non-existent, driving slow and stressful and the waiting time doesn't matter so much when the journey takes several hours. In more populated areas two-hourly (or three times a day like Pontefract Baghill) services are just a waste of money because no one will organise their life around that timetable when there are so many better options. Even the Tube would probably carry fresh air if it only ran every two hours. Either a route should justify a sufficient frequency to be useful - which depends on the circumstances - 15 minutes failed in Oldham - or it probably shouldn't run at all.

I agree entirely that it would be more beneficial economically to withdraw the Huddersfield to Castleford service entirely, and redeploy the two units and train crews elsewhere in the County (e.g. on extra services to and from Leeds) than to continue with the current situation. It carries few passengers, offers rather poor connections and runs at inconvenient times at the western end. It uses old DMUs and requires two members of very expensive train crew. And it needs two units for an hourly service, which gives low utilisation. Soon its Huddersfield to Wakefield function will be duplicated by a more useful through service. However you look at it, it's appallingly inefficient in it's current form.

But that's not going to happen, is it? In the same way, if two more units and crews were paid for there would be tens of better uses for them than Castleford to York.

That's why I suggested a trial based on redeployment of existing resources. But it's clearly about as popular a notion as the Ollerton extension to the Robin Hood line I made recently!

 

[yorksrob]

I agree entirely that it would be more beneficial economically to withdraw the Huddersfield to Castleford service entirely, and redeploy the two units and train crews elsewhere in the County (e.g. on extra services to and from Leeds) than to continue with the current situation. It carries few passengers, offers rather poor connections and runs at inconvenient times at the western end. It uses old DMUs and requires two members of very expensive train crew. And it needs two units for an hourly service, which gives low utilisation. Soon its Huddersfield to Wakefield function will be duplicated by a more useful through service. However you look at it, it's appallingly inefficient in it's current form.

But that's not going to happen, is it? In the same way, if two more units and crews were paid for there would be tens of better uses for them than Castleford to York.

That's why I suggested a trial based on redeployment of existing resources. But it's clearly about as popular a notion as the Ollerton extension to the Robin Hood line I made recently!

To be fair, lots of people find Huddersfield - Cass quite useful. Certainly bus links between Wakefield and Huddersfield seem very long winded. I've seen reasonable numbers use it between Wakefield and Castleford as a well as it complements the Hallam stopper in that direction.

The route caters for a distinct social need.

 

[LMS 4F]

To be fair, lots of people find Huddersfield - Cass quite useful. Certainly bus links between Wakefield and Huddersfield seem very long winded. I've seen reasonable numbers use it between Wakefield and Castleford as a well as it complements the Hallam stopper in that direction.

The route caters for a distinct social need.

It doesn't help loading between Castleford and Kirkgate as it runs about 5 minutes after the Sheffield service.

 

[yorksrob]

It doesn't help loading between Castleford and Kirkgate as it runs about 5 minutes after the Sheffield service.

True.

Although on Saturday when I caught it, there were more people waiting for it at Normanton, than there were got on the Sheffield stopper !

 

[Iskra]

Is it not quicker to change at Barnsley anyway for stations south of there and as it would be a same platform change it is not really that much of an inconvenience.

The wait varies, it's usually more like 20/25mins heading South for me. Also, sometimes it's better to slog it out on the stopper, so that you have a seat all the way, rather than stand or sit in a luggage rack on the semi-fast (if it's running). Barnsley station is not a particularly pleasant place to wait for a train and due to being attached to the bus station, seems to have more than it's fair share of anti-social behaviour as well as being a very cold station in winter.

 

[backontrack]

I think yorksrob's proposal is a very decent shout.

 

[leedslad82]

Don't know if this is possible. But rather than extend to york could u extend from castleford to sherburn then reverse there and run to selby terminating there. You could then run all the hull to york services via the main line rather than sherburn.