Electrification scrapped.

[Crossforth]

They could provide 'new' electric trains for GW by replacing the HST power cars with 1 electric loco and a driving trailer with seats in it

I think that sounds like a good idea, maybe even build the locos as bi mode (don't know how but someone will (Class 73)) so that in the meantime, they can run on diesel or to non electrified parts of GWML

 

[mumrar]

Erm, no. The difference between 33.5 and 40 minutes is 6.5 minutes, which is 16.25% of 40minutes, quite a big difference, so quite a bit more really. And if you compare the fastest train from 1900 with the fastest from now, it's only 8 minutes slower. The most likely reason for the journey time differences are that back in 1860 travel between Manchester and Liverpool was on a par with travel today between Birmingham and London. It is not a key express route any more, it's an inter-urban route now. I'm not disputing services have are not faster, but you're deliberately misrepresenting the journey to make the issue seem far bigger than it actually is.

 

[WatcherZero]

Erm, no. The difference between 33.5 and 40 minutes is 6.5 minutes, which is 16.25% of 40minutes, quite a big difference, so quite a bit more really. And if you compare the fastest train from 1900 with the fastest from now, it's only 8 minutes slower. The most likely reason for the journey time differences are that back in 1860 travel between Manchester and Liverpool was on a par with travel today between Birmingham and London. It is not a key express route any more, it's an inter-urban route now. I'm not disputing services have are not faster, but you're deliberately misrepresenting the journey to make the issue seem far bigger than it actually is.

I said half, that means 50% I was 9% out in my abbreviation it was 41% slower, you sir are being pedantic.

 

[455driver]

1900 40 minutes
1950's 47 minutes
1960 45 minutes
Now upto 67 minutes

How many stations does each service call at?

A faster end to end journey time is useless if you want to get off at a station in the middle!

 

[tbtc]

These claims about how journeys are "slower" today frustrate me - people never compare apples with apples.

There are six (?) trains an hour from Manchester to Liverpool - some serve just the main stops, some do all local stations. You have a variety of Manchester stations served (Airport/ Piccadilly/ Oxford Road/ Victoria) etc.

You could easily do it in 40 minutes today, if you just wanted one train an hour (without any Pacers getting in the way) - in the way that you could get from London to Edinburgh in three and a half hours, but its not worth sacriicing everything else

 

[thelem]

Sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone actually confirmed that this is happening? I saw announcements of billions of pounds of cuts today, but rail wasn't mentioned.

 

[Old Timer]

Many of the electrification schemes announced under Labour will go for a variety of different reasoons, mostly though because they were never properly costed, simply thrown in as part of a larger scorched earth policy to enable Labour in Opposition to accuse the Conservatives of drastic custs to the Railways, knowing full well that there will be plenty of gormless idiots who will parrot that for the next few decades as gospel fact.

We already know that given the fact that many coal fired power stations will be required by EU law to close, there will be severe electricity cuts in future years and within less than 10 years power cuts to domestic properties are a stark reality. Expansion of the electrified system will just put an even greater strain on our diminishing electricity generating capability, and expose the UK to the vagaries of buying (nuclear generated) from the French :roll:

Network Rail through their vicious and vindictive policies towards the Infrastructure Contractors, have driven most of the best qualified OHL Engineers and Linesmen abroad to places like Australia and New Zealand, who not only welcome them with open arms but pay them considerably more for being from the UK.

Foreign electrification engineers only have to install standard systems with plenty of clearance. The UK situation is completely different. A French OHL Engineer may sound romantic solution but he will have spent his life installing OHL at a standard system height on a production line basis.

Put him into the UK scenario of restricted clearances and he is lost.

The same applies to Eastern European OHL engineers, who face other problems in the UK scenario, but whom Network Rail think are the bees knees. If they were, Countries like Australia and New Zealand would have snapped them up being that they come much cheaper. The fact that they have not been tells everyone but Network Rail much.

The Conservatives do not have a problem with electrification or railway investment per se. What they do have a problem with are schemes which do not represent value for money.

Can anyone REALLY justify electrification to Swansea for Gods sake ? What exactly comes out of Waleas apart from Welshmen ?

There are DMUs doing longer runs than London to Bristol elsewhere in Britain. And lets be honest is Bristol really a powerhouse ?

Much more benefit can be gained by specific infill schemes, PROVIDING you have the staff able to do them.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Well if they can't do the major electrification schemes why not do some of the small ones and fill in the gaps?

So you could do for example:

Reading - Basingstoke
Wokingham - Ash
Shalford - Reigate
Oxted - Uckfield line
Ore - Ashford (Kent) (Marshlink)

All of those are relatively small projects that will release much needed DMUs for other areas which aren't even "in the frame" for electrification.

Dont forget us in the " North "

Far too much money is wasted in the South/South East

 

[PhilipW]

Sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone actually confirmed that this is happening? I saw announcements of billions of pounds of cuts today, but rail wasn't mentioned.

No, it is all speculation at the moment based on a short paragraph or two in "The Sun". Make of that what you may.

I think though that everyone expects somethng to happen even if it is only "delay" rather than "cancellation".

 

[merlodlliw]

These claims about how journeys are "slower" today frustrate me - people never compare apples with apples.

There are six (?) trains an hour from Manchester to Liverpool - some serve just the main stops, some do all local stations. You have a variety of Manchester stations served (Airport/ Piccadilly/ Oxford Road/ Victoria) etc.

You could easily do it in 40 minutes today, if you just wanted one train an hour (without any Pacers getting in the way) - in the way that you could get from London to Edinburgh in three and a half hours, but its not worth sacriicing everything else

As you mention Manchester trains, In the 60s we had the Llandudno club train
left Manex then Manvic at 4.30p.m. arrived Llandudno 6.30p.m., now we have
the hourly stopper service of 175s, calling at 8 extra stations, but taking a little over 8 minutes longer.
The stopper in those days took 3 hours,

 

[LE Greys]

Dont forget us in the " North "

Quite right, may I put in a word for:
Neville Hill-Hull/Colton Junction
York-Scarborough
Northallerton-Middlesbrough
Temple Hirst-Seby
Holbeck-Huddersfield-Manchester Picc
Holbeck-Bradford Exchange-Manchester Vic/Blackpool Nth

That would be a reasonable start, giving an excuse to go onto the other sections later. The whole of North Trans-Pennine and the Calder Vale routes would be electrified, as would the local services between Doncaster, Leeds, York and Hull. Harrogate could come later, and the lines around Sheffield if they ever do the MML. It would also provide two electric links accross the Pennines for at least some freight.

With some short, steep gradients and short distances between stations, the area is ideal for electrification. There are already 333s operating to Skipton and Ilkley, and with their 100mph performance, they could redeploy to Leeds-York, with new 75 mph stock coming in to replace them (378s perhaps).

 

[Crossforth]

Neville Hill-Colton Junction

Is meant to be electrified by 2014 but whether it will be is another matter

 

[starrymarkb]

I think that sounds like a good idea, maybe even build the locos as bi mode (don't know how but someone will (Class 73)) so that in the meantime, they can run on diesel or to non electrified parts of GWML

Problem with the class 73 is they are rather underpowered. Only 600hp on diesel... The Bi-Mode IEP would have been the same, a 1+9 bi mode set would have just ~2500hp compared to the ~5000hp for an HST

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Dont forget us in the " North "

Far too much money is wasted in the South/South East

Only for your cable fairies to constantly bloody steal the signalling cables, so not much point in doing it as the they'll (NR) will always be replacing them.

We don't have the problem down in here in Somerset.

I only suggested the North Downs line because it only needs about 10 miles from Wokingham to Ash & about another 12 from Shalford Junction to Reigate to be able to release Turbos for elsewhere, it would also provide a circular route for Victoria or Waterloo services (Shalford to Reigate section), also for future stock moves on Thameslink if it ever happens.

 

[swt_passenger]

I only suggested the North Downs line because it only needs about 10 miles from Wokingham to Ash & about another 12 from Shalford Junction to Reigate to be able to release Turbos for elsewhere, it would also provide a circular route for Victoria or Waterloo services (Shalford to Reigate section), also for future stock moves on Thameslink if it ever happens.

Thameslink stock moves are largely irrelevant, because it is pretty much certain that Thameslink will not go to Guildford (although it was shown in all the original plans, and is still on the ancient diagram on the T/L programme website).

 

[Aictos]

Only for your cable fairies to constantly bloody steal the signalling cables, so not much point in doing it as the they'll (NR) will always be replacing them.

We don't have the problem down in here in Somerset.

Only because you lot don't have bugger all to nick!



As to the fairies comment, I had disruption one morning due to the local copper fairies nicking the signalling cables hence confusion from passengers when I was explaining due to the copper fairies being busy last night why they didn't have a train service and they were far better off getting into London from Hertford East.

 

[455driver]

Only because you lot don't have bugger all to nick!

Thats because they have that lovely 3rd rail to jump up and bite anybody that tries to steal the signalling cable

 

[Aictos]

Thats because they have that lovely 3rd rail to jump up and bite anybody that tries to steal the signalling cable

indeed why it's probably one of the better uses for 3rd rail.

 

[Woody]

THE chances of electrification of the Great Western Main Line and several key routes in the north west in the foreseeable future appear to have dwindled to almost zero. The House of Lords has been told that the national financial situation poses difficulties.
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gene...ation-looking-increasingly-unlikely-soon.html


Also this telling comment on the article from another forum from an electrification engineer "The GWML electrification design is still being worked on, the funding is there to do this, when this is complete this will be a very detailed "Form A" design sufficient to go out to tender.

The likely blockers to the scheme as Iain Coucher said in his Railnews article is the Government's freeze on new rolling stock specifically the second (and largest) tranche of new Thameslink stock and the total reevaluation of the IEP, the whole concept of the GWML scheme is to do a "factory train build" in effect a production line from Airport Junction to Swansea; to do it peace meal will not get the per kM cost down to what the ORR were expecting. In effect what Iain Coucher is saying if Mr DfT you only want to do as far as Oxford & Newbury it will cost a lot more, even Crossrail's costs will increase if they now take the Airport Jcn to Maidenhead wiring.

The team working on the GWML electrification design a little disappointed on the news that it may be delayed or stopped.

We all know and accept that the Country is in serious debt, schemes like the GWML and Thameslink stock can sit on hold but only for a short while these schemes need a Government decision one way or the other and in the next few months."

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The problem is that this country doesn't see things in the same way as they do in the rest of the EU.

There electrification is seen as a positive long term asset, here it's just a seen as a quick fix & unless it pays for itself PDQ, then its seen as a non starter; Railways aren't like that, you can't expect it to return its full costs in a matter of 5-10 years.

The thing is if it's started next year, we the taxpayer will pay 2011 prices and the longer it's deferred the higher the prices and costs will become as specifications and demands are superseded. They should just get on with it otherwise we'll always be running on a 3rd rate system.

 

[Greenback]

The problem is that this country doesn't see things in the same way as they do in the rest of the EU.

There electrification is seen as a positive long term asset, here it's just a seen as a quick fix & unless it pays for itself PDQ, then its seen as a non starter; Railways aren't like that, you can't expect it to return its full costs in a matter of 5-10 years.

The thing is if it's started next year, we the taxpayer will pay 2011 prices and the longer it's deferred the higher the prices and costs will become as specifications and demands are superseded. They should just get on with it otherwise we'll always be running on a 3rd rate system.

I agree, this country is too obsessed with short term profit. It;s all about here and now, rather than 5/10 years down the line. This is the reason for some of our problems in the first place!

 

[Goldfish62]

The problem is that this country doesn't see things in the same way as they do in the rest of the EU.

There electrification is seen as a positive long term asset, here it's just a seen as a quick fix & unless it pays for itself PDQ, then its seen as a non starter; Railways aren't like that, you can't expect it to return its full costs in a matter of 5-10 years.

The thing is if it's started next year, we the taxpayer will pay 2011 prices and the longer it's deferred the higher the prices and costs will become as specifications and demands are superseded. They should just get on with it otherwise we'll always be running on a 3rd rate system.

Spot on - couldn't agree more. Trouble is, the electorate tends to go along with the short-termist viewpoint, then complains that the railways don't have enough investment. Sometimes I do despair - and currently on an increasingly regular basis!

 

[WatcherZero]

I am trying to get my head around HS1 being built for 5.6bn being put up for sale for £1.5bn, sure part of that is the trains which will still be leased from Hitachi but since both companies bidding so far are foreign we are essentially using public money to build infrastructure then sell it below cost (or its true financial worth) to foreign companies to reap the financial reward for non UK shareholders.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Do you mean to say the penny is starting to drop at long last.

Successive governments have virtually sold off all of the countries assets, we don't own the telecoms, gas, water, banks, electricity, railways or anything much now, they're all owned by foreign companies. If push, came to shove we're knackered all in the name of greed by ministers & their city cohorts, who made millions on the backs of small people.

 

[jon0844]

Plenty of MPs are now on the boards of those companies, so somebody did alright....

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Exactly, for the UK read Nepotism Inc.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Spot on - couldn't agree more. Trouble is, the electorate tends to go along with the short-termist viewpoint, then complains that the railways don't have enough investment. Sometimes I do despair - and currently on an increasingly regular basis!

At 2009 prices, the GWML and Manchester area electrification was estimated at a cost of around £1.2Bn. The UK work force is around 25 Million, meaning that if everybody was asked to put their hands in their pocket and pay a one off levy, it would only amount to £48 each.

Sound's easy. Here's the rub... the bulk of the UK work force would not directly benefit from this investment and would doubtless feel quite aggrieved at the prospect of this money disappearing, particularly when times are so tough for folk.

 

[jon0844]

But that is the same with all taxes. You can't begin to try and break it down into paying only for things you want today (which will change tomorrow).

It's like people against the TV licence because they only watch X and don't care for paying for the production of Y.

If a lot of the money is going to create actual work, which means that money is given to people who will hopefully invest or spend it back in the UK economy, it seems like a winner.

 

[starrymarkb]

yep, and infrastructure is a good thing to invest in when the economy is down, that way its there to hasten the recovery and be ready for the next boom...

 

[Solaris]

Yes, I find it inconceivable that the government will can a £1Bn electrification programme for GWML (costs not due until 2014-2017) whilst at the same time supporting a total £43Bn for HS2 to Brum and CrossRail!!
Or perhaps it is easier to can a labour programme and resurrect it later as part of a UK HSR strategy that includes an upgraded GWML.....