15X Fleet State and Replacements?

[61653 HTAFC]

Are the Turbos any wider than 323s and 333s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One possible use for 15Xs could be as track-recording vehicles like the 950- a 953 (or 955 if run as a pair) would mean the solitary 950 wouldn't be worked as hard. No idea if Network Rail need or want any extra vehicles for this purpose, but in a year or so there'll be plenty available at basically scrap-value prices.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The wages stay here, the tax stays here, the skills stay here, and if the assembly line is here it gives local parts suppliers far more chance of getting work.

Exactly

 

[JonathanH]

The news elsewhere today that ten 150/2s aren't going to leave the GWR franchise would appear to possibly indicate a stay of execution for some units in the Northern fleet.

 

[darloscott]

Northern is already a basket case franchise with some routes that likely provide a small profit at best. We're in the middle of trying to improve the longer distance services in a hunt for profitability, so that's probably where we need to be looking for any further improvements to stock. Routes like the Tyne Valley or Yorkshire coast haven't got a chance in competing for new units. We have to work from the top down over, although we're kinda have a problem in that 158's are nowhere near suited to multi-stop local routes with heavy loadings so would not be ideal to replace 150's on the likes of Harrogate or Sheffield-Doncaster. Buying for routes outside of the franchise with cascades of older units into Northern is probably the way to go, where heavier loadings would make a far better business case for more investment. The one exception to this is probably Manchester local routes towards Buxton, Liverpool and Preston.

 

[Jozhua]

Of the services currently operated by 150s a significant amount of the time (i.e. ignoring the handful of routes/diagrams where they have occasionally been pressed into service), how many of them have much running above 60mph away from the wires? And how many of those services have scope for being sped up to 90mph?

Higher top speed for DMUs generally comes at the expense of acceleration (or fuel efficiency, in the case of Voyagers) - and most of the routes run by 150s are where better acceleration is a bigger priority.

Especially as we have a number of 90/100mph DMUs coming onto the second-hand market soon (the entire EMT fleet of 158s, some of the TPE 185s, the entire class of 175s).

Too early to decide on 150 replacement until we know what battery/hybrid technology looks like - maybe in another five years we'll have cobbled something together that's better than a 769 (because a four coach service capable of doing 100mph under the wires and 75mph away from the wires would be fine for the kind of routes 150s operate on.

Don't get me wrong, I don't love 150s - I find the toaster rack seats pretty horrible - low down and three abreast - but we just need a simple basic train to replace them (although I am looking forward to the threads in five years time along the lines of "My Suggestion For Future Uses For The 150s" )

I mean there are quite a few areas where 15X's run outside of wires up to 75mph. A DEMU that runs up to about 75mph under diesel with capability to run up to 90mph under wires would be sensible.

I think my point is, we don't really want to settle for downgrading top speeds, a la 230, especially on busy mainlines where this could cause even more congestion. Anyway, considering the fires and reliability issues, I think that project is dead. It was a cool idea, I'll give them that and the passenger experience on the services that have run seems good.

Something basic would be fine, although there's not really much I think you can cut out extras wise. Air con is a must, considering most 15 year old cars have them! USB power points and in train displays don't strike me as the most major expense, so might as well include them. Probably just don't bother with the digital signalling or particularly fancy electronic solutions if they aren't necessary. I believe the selective door opening system on 195/331 didn't work so well to begin with, probably best not to bother with that. Ditch digital signalling equipment, although leave room if needed in the future. Just the absolute basics to allow them to run safely.

Northern is already a basket case franchise with some routes that likely provide a small profit at best. We're in the middle of trying to improve the longer distance services in a hunt for profitability, so that's probably where we need to be looking for any further improvements to stock. Routes like the Tyne Valley or Yorkshire coast haven't got a chance in competing for new units. We have to work from the top down over, although we're kinda have a problem in that 158's are nowhere near suited to multi-stop local routes with heavy loadings so would not be ideal to replace 150's on the likes of Harrogate or Sheffield-Doncaster. Buying for routes outside of the franchise with cascades of older units into Northern is probably the way to go, where heavier loadings would make a far better business case for more investment. The one exception to this is probably Manchester local routes towards Buxton, Liverpool and Preston.

Hmm, I mean with EMR soon to get rid of 156's, a few of those could perhaps make their way to the Northern routes where they would be useful. The 15X fleet spreads to almost every corner of the country though, so looking at just Northern might not be the most representative. Plus, cascading might not work so well where express trains are run on local routes they are unsuited for, both fuel consumption and reliability-wise.

I believe the 156's got pretty battered under Central, and EMT spent years trying to get them back to a useable condition, so they may not be much more reliable than your average 150.

 

[JonathanH]

USB power points and in train displays don't strike me as the most major expense, so might as well include them.

Plenty of 15x with USB power points (or plug sockets) now including 150s at Northern.

 

[johnnychips]

We have to work from the top down over, although we're kinda have a problem in that 158's are nowhere near suited to multi-stop local routes with heavy loadings so would not be ideal to replace 150's on the likes of Harrogate or Sheffield-Doncaster.

Before all this kicked off, 158s replaced Pacers on some Sheffield to Doncaster diagrams, and they were fine in terms of capacity and dwell times.

 

[Jozhua]

Plenty of 15x with USB power points (or plug sockets) now including 150s at Northern.

Yeah, exactly, musn't be too much of an expense then

Before all this kicked off, 158s replaced Pacers on some Sheffield to Doncaster diagrams, and they were fine in terms of capacity and dwell times.

Given the longer lengths of a 158 and probably more seating room, perhaps this could play an advantage on routes with existing overcrowding?

 

[ainsworth74]

There are plenty of suitable threads to discuss the response to COVID-19 and in the unlikely event there isn't one already running we have a whole section dedicated to the topic. We do not need to go into details about here. Thank you.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If the Northern 15x fleet is replaced by new trains, they'll have to be from CAF for commonality etc. as Northern have made their beds in that regard. Considering the amount of used but decent stock coming on the market (156's from EMR, 158's from EMR & TfW), it would be better to take some of those since drivers are already trained on those?

 

[Nym]

Why not buy them from someone else so they work and don't fall appart?

 

[Anonymous10]

If the Northern 15x fleet is replaced by new trains, they'll have to be from CAF for commonality etc. as Northern have made their beds in that regard. Considering the amount of used but decent stock coming on the market (156's from EMR, 158's from EMR & TfW), it would be better to take some of those since drivers are already trained on those?

also the tfw 150s and 153s are all relatively decent excluding a few but then that's just expanding the 15x fleet

 

[Jozhua]

If the Northern 15x fleet is replaced by new trains, they'll have to be from CAF for commonality etc. as Northern have made their beds in that regard. Considering the amount of used but decent stock coming on the market (156's from EMR, 158's from EMR & TfW), it would be better to take some of those since drivers are already trained on those?

Might work in the short term, but the 156/8's are only a couple of years younger than the 150's! They'll be 40 years old by 2029 and likely badly unreliable.

Probably worth looking at replacements for the whole fleet within the next couple of years.

Why not buy them from someone else so they work and don't fall appart?

Most train fleets have some issues on introduction. 331's still feel a hell of a lot better than the MK3 MUs before them.

Anyway, I'm expecting to see the 15X replacements mid-decade if things go well, so I don't know if that same product will still be available.

 

[Anonymous10]

Might work in the short term, but the 156/8's are only a couple of years younger than the 150's! They'll be 40 years old by 2029 and likely badly unreliable.

Probably worth looking at replacements for the whole fleet within the next couple of years.



Most train fleets have some issues on introduction. 331's still feel a hell of a lot better than the MK3 MUs before them.

Anyway, I'm expecting to see the 15X replacements mid-decade if things go well, so I don't know if that same product will still be available.

Could transfer the tfw 175s and 158s as short term help allowing some northern CAF units ect on those lines to cascade or to cover for some other sprinters for a few years while they are manufactured

 

[Bevan Price]

As long as they can be kept in service, I would hope that 150s are retained to strengthen services, and eliminate overcrowded 2 coach DMUs on busy services. Money for new trains is going to be very tight for the next few years........

 

[Anonymous10]

As long as they can be kept in service, I would hope that 150s are retained to strengthen services, and eliminate overcrowded 2 coach DMUs on busy services. Money for new trains is going to be very tight for the next few years........

To be fair I can see them possibly getting any good 15x unit available currently from leasing companies to try keep the fleet going till there's New train's

 

[NoMorePacers]

To be fair I can see them possibly getting any good 15x unit available currently from leasing companies to try keep the fleet going till there's New train's

The LM 153s haven't been taken yet either.

 

[devonexpress]

GWR's fleet of 150's aren't too bad, an are actually the lifeblood of many Cornish branchlines although with the new faster fleet of IET's and Castles, we do need slightly faster trains on some parts of the network, Exmouth to Paignton for example.

 

[Jozhua]

GWR's fleet of 150's aren't too bad, an are actually the lifeblood of many Cornish branchlines although with the new faster fleet of IET's and Castles, we do need slightly faster trains on some parts of the network, Exmouth to Paignton for example.

Yeah, seems kinda crazy a lot of trains are limited to 75mph still!

Most cars will safely cope (mechanically) with 80-90mph.

Is it much more expensive to get a train rated for 90/100mph vs 75? Obviously you need a reasonably powerful engine, but these days I don't think that is too hard.

 

[devonexpress]

Yeah, seems kinda crazy a lot of trains are limited to 75mph still!

Most cars will safely cope (mechanically) with 80-90mph.

Is it much more expensive to get a train rated for 90/100mph vs 75? Obviously you need a reasonably powerful engine, but these days I don't think that is too hard.

These day's its to do with crashworthiness, so at 75mph they might be allow cab ends with connecting doors, where as at 90mph you might have to have no connect door and thus two trains with no way to get between.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is not much point in having 90/100 mph trains when they spend most of their lives working local services that rarely reach even 60 mph. For that situation, you need rapid acceleration, not a high maximum speed.

 

[krus_aragon]

These day's its to do with crashworthiness, so at 75mph they might be allow cab ends with connecting doors, where as at 90mph you might have to have no connect door and thus two trains with no way to get between.

There may be differing crashworthiness standards for 75mph, but CAF's forthcoming 196 and 197 Civity units have been specified with connecting doors, as well as a top speed of 100mph.

 

[Snow1964]

A few years ago, 30 years old for a DMU, and 40 years for an EMU would have been considered normal lifespan.

The first generation DMUs did about 30 years (late 1950s to late 1980s), some did less, some a bit more.

Short term, it is quite easy to suggest services that see crowding (ignoring Covid-19 reduced use), and could do with strengthening. But until the franchise system stabilises (and I mean not short extensions) can’t see anyone ordering replacements.

Do we actually need direct replacements for the 15x, possibly not as there are plenty of newer DMUs (including those already on order). But there is more of a case for new dual mode trains which could operate on electric (where available) routes, displacing the pure diesels to replace the 15x trains.

My only reservation (as others have pointed out) is that some of the newer units are 90 or 100mph versions, and ideally would be better if regeared for stopping services when acceleration is more important than high top speed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah, seems kinda crazy a lot of trains are limited to 75mph still!

Most cars will safely cope (mechanically) with 80-90mph.

Is it much more expensive to get a train rated for 90/100mph vs 75? Obviously you need a reasonably powerful engine, but these days I don't think that is too hard.

On the other hand, most roads have a (legal) maximum speed of 60mph or less (Motorways and dual carriageways notwithstanding)... and if you crash at those speeds you probably won't be walking away unscathed even with modern crashworthiness standards. Even the 75mph maximum that a few on this thread have scoffed at is faster than any legal road speed in the country.

In any case, the best way to cut journey times is to speed up the slow bits, not by raising the maximum which on stopping services might only be reached for a fraction of the journey anyway.

 

[Energy]

These day's its to do with crashworthiness, so at 75mph they might be allow cab ends with connecting doors, where as at 90mph you might have to have no connect door and thus two trains with no way to get between.

The 172/2, 172/3s, 196s and 197s have connecting doors and go 100mph and 158s and 159s go 90mph with connecting doors. On the EMU side of things 350s, 387s and some 730s have connecting doors and go 110mph. 375s, 377s, 379s, 380s, 385s, 442s, 444s, 450s and some 458s previously all have connecting doors and go 100mph.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 172/2, 172/3s, 196s and 197s have connecting doors and go 100mph and 158s and 159s go 90mph with connecting doors. On the EMU side of things 350s, 387s and some 730s have connecting doors and go 110mph. 375s, 377s, 379s, 380s, 385s, 442s, 444s, 450s and some 458s previously all have connecting doors and go 100mph.

However as previously said most routes the 150s operate are commuter routes which have frequent stops and require higher acceleration I personally would aim for a train no slower than a class 150 and can accelerate as fast if not faster if we can get a higher top spead that's nice but let's focus on acceleration

 

[Energy]

However as previously said most routes the 150s operate are commuter routes which have frequent stops and require higher acceleration I personally would aim for a train no slower than a class 150 and can accelerate as fast if not faster if we can get a higher top spead that's nice but let's focus on acceleration

devonexpress' point was that at 90mph they may not be able to have connecting doors, I was specifying units which have connecting doors and go 90+ mph although I do agree acceleration is important.

 

[Anonymous10]

devonexpress' point was that at 90mph they may not be able to have connecting doors, I was specifying units which have connecting doors and go 90+ mph although I do agree acceleration is important.

Ah ok sorry just getting a little tired of the they need to be faster statement at their speed they often to faster than you can when driving

 

[Energy]

Ah ok sorry just getting a little tired of the they need to be faster statement at their speed they often to faster than you can when driving

Personally I would go for 90+mph units which have good acceleration mainly for flexibility so they can do some of the faster services, something like a bimode 3 car aventra with connecting doors would be good imo.