Suggestions for changing the calling points on the Caledonian SLeeper

[47271]

From experience a southbound Highlander running via Northampton usually spells 100% Delay Repay.

Equally a run on the slows is a timekeeping recovery disaster stuck behind stoppers and all sorts, and generally leading to your money back too.

That said, either scenario only arises when it's running quite late already. And then bad goes to worse.

 

[MrEd]

The Highlander always goes via Weedon.

The timing of the Lowlander does permit it to go via Northampton if engineering work dictates a need for it to do so. It arrives in London early if it goes via Weedon.

I think that the Sunday night northbound Highlander (if it’s not routed via the ECML) does generally go via Northampton, which is why it leaves Euston around 20 minutes earlier than the weekday northbound Highlanders. I think all southbound Highlanders run via Weedon except in cases where they are so late that they miss the path.

 

[43 302]

Did the sleeper ever stop at Coventry? I noticed last time I was there that the station is quite a bit longer than a Pendolino and even has a 15/16 car stop sign.

 

[JonathanH]

Would a pickup on one sleeper at Birmingham New Street be a good business case?

No, the dwell time is handled much better at Crewe. Crewe offers a perfectly reasonable opportunity to pick up the sleeper for people in the Midlands.

 

[Clansman]

In the future when everything has returned to normal for a shake up of the Sleeper services

I'd split the Lowland sleeper with the Glasgow Central and Fort William portion running as one train and then the Fort William portion would detach and run via the Rutherglen chord.

The Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh portion running as one train, with the necessary portions still splitting, I realise that Edinburgh passengers would have an earlier arrival, but surely provision could be made to use one of the lesser used platforms

As others have said, the usage of the Fort William portion varies significantly. Baring in mind that it also serves as the only regular direct service between Edinburgh Waverley and Fort William, the last thing you want to do is to remove this - as during the quiet periods in the berths, there is still a fair usage of the seated coach between the two. Thus splitting at Carstairs as part of the Glasgow sleeper removes this somewhat important connection, and would essentially kill the seated coach for this service regardless if you were to continue it to London or not.

It would be interesting to see the figures showing how Fort William to England seated demand compares to that of the seated demand for Scottish based journeys.

When it comes to the question of additional calls in general, where the timetable allows, I do see merrit in maximising the calling points for the sake of trying to max out the usage - particularly for the Aberdeen portion with the likes of Laurencekirk, Broughty Ferry, Cupar, Ladybank, and Markinch. Not that it would make much of a difference, but providing these towns with their first direct London service could be an incentive to get people using it without significantly altering the timetable.

I do agree with others' suggestions for more WCML stops such as Milton Keynes. As much as there could be benefit in calling as Birmingham and Manchester, it's not rocket science to know that any further usage wouldn't even make a dent in improving the economics of the sleeper in the first place, and in the long term, running through more congested areas at peak time could further hit reliability. However it would be interesting to see how a direct link to the two in a hypothetical scenario would fare.

 

[Ianno87]

Milton Keynes would strike me as an "obvious" candidate. At least for the Highlander - even seasonal only or certain dats of the week. Probably too "wee small hours" for the Lowlander.

Although from my sole experience of riding the northbound Lowlander (on a Wednesday night), *nobody* joined at Watford, so not convinced it's a massive market...

 

[The Planner]

Altering the arrival times at Euston will cause big problems, especially when trying to sort the light engine moves and getting the empty stocks back to Wembley.

 

[Ianno87]

Altering the arrival times at Euston will cause big problems, especially when trying to sort the light engine moves and getting the empty stocks back to Wembley.

I presume the cost of extra loco(s) to run the trains as top and tail throughout (rather than the current arrangement of releasing the Lowland loco to take the Highland ECS) is non-trivial.

I can however believe that accommodating morning peak stops, particularly for the Highlander (very carefully threaded through the early Pendolinos), is nigh-on impossible. Having said that, the market for being hustled off a sleeper train at 06xx in the morning can't exactly be huge...


The other question in my head is what the sleeper operation looks like in a post-HS2 world.

 

[Whistler40145]

If Engineering Works closed the line through both Stafford and Crewe, would sleeper passengers be bussed to Stoke on Trent or would CS pull the Crewe stop?

 

[Clansman]

If Engineering Works closed the line through both Stafford and Crewe, would sleeper passengers be bussed to Stoke on Trent or would CS pull the Crewe stop?

ECML diversion or run via Hixton & Manchester I'd have thought.

 

[Meerkat]

More stops damages the product for most passengers doesn’t it?
The sleep period is pretty short with out the disturbance of stop and start, and people getting up and opening doors etc,

 

[popeter45]

if we remove the idea of all the sleepers needing to go from Euston i had a interesting idea
Euston runs a 12-16 car Glasgow (8 Cars) + Fort William (4-8 cars) with stops on the WCML
Euston Runs a 10 Car Inverses (8 Cars) + Thurso/Wick (2 cars + 3 added from Glasgow Queen Street At Stirling) with stops on the WCML
Kings Cross Runs a 12 car Edinburgh (6-8 Cars) + Aberdeen (4-6 Cars) with Stops on the ECML

 

[Whistler40145]

if we remove the idea of all the sleepers needing to go from Euston i had a interesting idea
Euston runs a 12-16 car Glasgow (8 Cars) + Fort William (4-8 cars) with stops on the WCML
Euston Runs a 10 Car Inverses (8 Cars) + Thurso/Wick (2 cars + 3 added from Glasgow Queen Street At Stirling) with stops on the WCML
Kings Cross Runs a 12 car Edinburgh (6-8 Cars) + Aberdeen (4-6 Cars) with Stops on the ECML

Would the Fort William portion detach en route or at Glasgow Central?

 

[popeter45]

Would the Fort William portion detach en route or at Glasgow Central?

could detach at Central and skip the low level stop?
only issue is would require either a DBSO or a runaround locomotive push when reataching on the southbound route

 

[alistairlees]

if we remove the idea of all the sleepers needing to go from Euston i had a interesting idea
Euston runs a 12-16 car Glasgow (8 Cars) + Fort William (4-8 cars) with stops on the WCML
Euston Runs a 10 Car Inverses (8 Cars) + Thurso/Wick (2 cars + 3 added from Glasgow Queen Street At Stirling) with stops on the WCML
Kings Cross Runs a 12 car Edinburgh (6-8 Cars) + Aberdeen (4-6 Cars) with Stops on the ECML

I’m afraid that’s vastly more costs and virtually no more revenue. Ideas to increase revenue and / or reduce costs would be good. Though it’s all been done to death before!

 

[Whistler40145]

could detach at Central and skip the low level stop?
only issue is would require either a DBSO or a runaround locomotive push when reataching on the southbound route

The problem is attaching the Southbound Fort William portion as the loco would be on the wrong end

 

[Clansman]

if we remove the idea of all the sleepers needing to go from Euston i had a interesting idea
Euston runs a 12-16 car Glasgow (8 Cars) + Fort William (4-8 cars) with stops on the WCML
Euston Runs a 10 Car Inverses (8 Cars) + Thurso/Wick (2 cars + 3 added from Glasgow Queen Street At Stirling) with stops on the WCML
Kings Cross Runs a 12 car Edinburgh (6-8 Cars) + Aberdeen (4-6 Cars) with Stops on the ECML

Have you considered the practicalities of such an operation?

It's nice to look at things from an on paper perspective, and as interesting as it is, could you image what would happen to that Glasgow Queen Street of yours if a late ScotRail service caused the Thurso/Wick sleeper to delayed by a few hours and losing the paths from the Inverness portion before that has even left yet! Yikes!

Also, when looking at Kings Cross as a terminus (platform length problems aside), remember that Aberdeen, Edinburgh, & Inverness have sufficient enough links as it is to the East Coast. The last thing they need to have is their direct links to the West taken away from them and have yet another East Coast link that they already have. Notwithstanding of course that going down the WCML serves a far great catchment of reasonable connections than the ECML - so it's not entirely down to going gung-ho to Euston at all costs but more so because it is the most obvious place to terminate when looking at how usage can be maximised outside of London.

More stops damages the product for most passengers doesn’t it?
The sleep period is pretty short with out the disturbance of stop and start, and people getting up and opening doors etc,

Up to 17 stops on the Inverness, 11 on the Aberdeen, and god knows how many on the Fort William - I highly doubt adding 5 or 6 onto the Aberdeen and another 1 or 2 to the full portion would do anything.

Remember the Mk5s are specially designed to "stop things going bump in the night", and to be honest it's the only thing they do better than the Mk3s from a passenger comfort viewpoint!

 

[Bletchleyite]

More stops damages the product for most passengers doesn’t it?
The sleep period is pretty short with out the disturbance of stop and start, and people getting up and opening doors etc,

With the Highlander (which is the one more suited to this) not really, it departs too early for most people to be sleeping, and it passes MKC well after they've gone round banging on doors with the poor excuse for breakfast. Indeed, I was getting hassled for my coffee cup back well before MKC (which I thought was very poor).

Regarding HS2, if it gets built all the way I can see it dispensing with the need for the Lowlander, but not so much the Highlander.

 

[JonathanH]

I can however believe that accommodating morning peak stops, particularly for the Highlander (very carefully threaded through the early Pendolinos), is nigh-on impossible. Having said that, the market for being hustled off a sleeper train at 06xx in the morning can't exactly be huge...

The path for the Highlander into Euston is an great piece of work, all the way from Crewe southbound, facilitating stops at Milton Keynes in the trains ahead of and behind it and for a West Midlands service to join the fast line at Ledburn. I really don't think anyone should be messing around with it.

Anyone for Milton Keynes can get off at Crewe for the 0602 departure (arriving 0712) or stay on and catch the 0807 from Euston (arriving 0838). I really don't see how a Milton Keynes stop is relevant.

The path northbound is pretty clever too with the 2100 Manchester / 2103 Wolverhampton / 2108 Liverpool / 2111 Preston / 2114 Birmingham (WM) departures all leaving in front of it and the 2140 to Manchester overtaking at Brinklow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone for Milton Keynes can get off at Crewe for the 0602 departure (arriving 0712) or stay on and catch the 0807 from Euston (arriving 0838). I really don't see how a Milton Keynes stop is relevant.

It's probably more useful northbound, as services down to Euston have thinned substantially by the time you'd need to head down, and the catastrophic effect of missing it (like a flight) means you'd have to leave lots of slack.

You can connect onto it at Crewe, I did once, but it involves sitting around there for quite some time, and everything is shut.

 

[JonathanH]

It's probably more useful northbound, as services down to Euston have thinned substantially by the time you'd need to head down, and the catastrophic effect of missing it (like a flight) means you'd have to leave lots of slack.

You can connect onto it at Crewe, I did once, but it involves sitting around there for quite some time, and everything is shut.

Maybe. I assume the Watford stop is there for some theoretical legacy view that people would get a taxi transfer from Heathrow to catch the sleeper (although in this day and age it would make more sense to fly to Scotland in the first place). I have no idea what the size of the potential market for people joining at Milton Keynes would be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe. I assume the Watford stop is there for some theoretical legacy view that people would get a taxi transfer from Heathrow to catch the sleeper (although in this day and age it would make more sense to fly to Scotland in the first place). I have no idea what the size of the potential market for people joining at Milton Keynes would be.

I don't know, but I suspect bigger than Watford. It's stopped at the latter for so long people have probably forgotten why. It probably just stems back to the days when most ICWC trains did stop there.

 

[Whistler40145]

When the HS2 works completely block access to London Euston, will the Sleepers completely move to London Kings Cross and work via the ECML?

 

[JonathanH]

When the HS2 works completely block access to London Euston, will the Sleepers completely move to London Kings Cross and work via the ECML?

When is that happening?

There are already contingency arrangements for sleepers to go to Kings Cross for weekend closures which have been done a few times. It involves three trains running in each direction and is much more difficult an operation (once you take into account the need to get the stock from Wembley) than running them into Euston.

 

[Whistler40145]

When is that happening?

There are already contingency arrangements for sleepers to go to Kings Cross for weekend closures which have been done a few times. It involves three trains running in each direction and is much more difficult an operation (once you take into account the need to get the stock from Wembley) than running them into Euston.

Unless temporary arrangements are made to service the stock at Ferme Park sidings or Bounds Green

 

[JonathanH]

Unless temporary arrangements are made to service the stock at Ferme Park sidings or Bounds Green

Which there won't be. Anyway, when is Euston closing for HS2 work that would require the sleepers to move away? Certainly not in the near term (other than for weekend / bank holiday work).

 

[Whistler40145]

Which there won't be. Anyway, when is Euston closing for HS2 work that would require the sleepers to move away? Certainly not in the near term (other than for weekend / bank holiday work).

No idea when

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think adding MKC would also make sense - I assume the new stock can do SDO, if not just use local door. It's not like it's in a rush.

Milton Keynes vice Watford would be good; and you could realistically do Birmingham Intl on the Lowland (not New Street as it gives flexibility to get round small blocks in other parts of the Mids), with a coach to/from Tamworth if needed.

 

[The Planner]

When the HS2 works completely block access to London Euston, will the Sleepers completely move to London Kings Cross and work via the ECML?

No idea when

I don't see the need for full blocks of Euston now, it will all be high side blocks as all the HS2 work is that side. Any all line stuff will take place in the 54 hours over Xmas. The Sleeper will always go to Wembley, it won't get dealt with elsewhere.

 

[JonathanH]

Milton Keynes vice Watford would be good; and you could realistically do Birmingham Intl on the Lowland (not New Street as it gives flexibility to get round small blocks in other parts of the Mids), with a coach to/from Tamworth if needed.

Is there really any point of putting a stop in the lowland sleeper at Birmingham International? We would be talking about roughly 0500 southbound (see Monday running times) for a train that leaves Edinburgh and Glasgow at 2340 and about 0115 northbound (see Sunday times) for a 0720 arrival. That is seriously unattractive - at best four and half hours sleep or maybe five northbound.

Sunday northbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75067/2020-09-27/detailed
Sunday southbound https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C75050/2020-09-27/detailed

As for a coach from Tamworth. That is just a way of wasting money.