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South Wales 'Metro' updates

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So pay for parking at the station, pay for the train and take more time ?
Using more petrol, emitting more pollution taking the D tour to the station or park and ride?

Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

Parking at P&Rs are free, it just costs the ticket of the train or bus. Compared to paying for car parking, the costs are then pretty comparable. Most people who use them are those traveling from outside the city so, as long as they're situated on the main routes in/out, no detour is needed.
 
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Tom Quinne

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Exactly as long as their on the route anyway.

How many are, will be though?
The ideal world is very different to the real one the majority of us live in.
 

Tom Quinne

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Who says P&R's and station parking won't be free? And yes, taking a detour and avoiding the city centre, which is the whole point of these proposed measures. Birmingham and Bristol have all proposed similar if not more stringent measures recently.

I challenge you to walk down Albany Road, Crwys Rd or City Rd in Cardiff at peak travel time and then please tell me how on earth you think the bumper to bumper traffic and toxic fumes on those roads is sustainable?
People's habits and lifestyles need to change. It could take me 15-20 minutes to drive into Cardiff city centre from my home, but I have to accept getting up earlier and adding more time onto my day for the 15 minute walk to the train station and the 15 minute journey on the train into the city centre. Yes public transport takes longer but it has benefits on people's health and for the environment.
Carrying on as we are with rising traffic levels is simply not an option.
I'll gladly welcome any alternative options you can suggest that are proven to work for reducing car usage and pollution in city centres.
You cannot compare London and Cardiff either.

Why not ?

Both capital cities, with large dormitory commuter areas on the outskirts.

Expanding at a huge rate both population and commuting wise, congestion and pollution raising.

No realistic way of combating it, congestion charging hasn’t work in London - why should it work in Cardiff?

Oyster and contactless has made public transport so cheap it’s a no brainer but to use it, but people still drive in as it’s not convenient.

Cardiff East and West - along the Railway is poorly served, unless you have more bus lanes (which add to congestion) the bus just becomes part of the problem.
 

Phil from Mon

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They use their car..

I explained that London still has congestion and pollution regardless of their vehicle taxes, why do you think Cardiff is any different?

Most of the London congestion is due to deliveries, and to the proliferation of Uber and similar. People in London don’t think twice about using public transport, and not one of my London friends owns a car, if they need one for a weekend away they will hire one.
 

Tom Quinne

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So the M25, North Circular are fully of Ubers and Amazon vans ? Maybe we should ban internet shopping, but that would add to inner city congestion as all those people will flock to malls every weekend.
 

Cardiff123

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Why not ?

Both capital cities, with large dormitory commuter areas on the outskirts.

Expanding at a huge rate both population and commuting wise, congestion and pollution raising.

No realistic way of combating it, congestion charging hasn’t work in London - why should it work in Cardiff?

Oyster and contactless has made public transport so cheap it’s a no brainer but to use it, but people still drive in as it’s not convenient.

Cardiff East and West - along the Railway is poorly served, unless you have more bus lanes (which add to congestion) the bus just becomes part of the problem.
How can you possibly say public transport in and around London is not convenient?
Of course it's not door to door but it's not meant to be.
 

John R

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So the M25, North Circular are fully of Ubers and Amazon vans ? Maybe we should ban internet shopping, but that would add to inner city congestion as all those people will flock to malls every weekend.
The M25 is not the inner conurbation area which we are debating here, so I’m not sure of it’s relevance. The majority of traffic on the M25 is avoiding London and I don’t think the Underground, London buses or park and ride schemes will have any impact on its traffic levels. Still, back to Cardiff, you’re clearly not convinced so I wonder if it’s time for us all to agree to disagree and move on?
 

daodao

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A few days ago, I happened to stop by the new Plasdwr development marketing place - which was closed. Anyway, I met in the car park a man & wife who were prospective buyers and we got talking. Turned out that they worked at Heath Hospital. I pointed out that it would be a very difficult journey via congested Llandaff to get from Plasdwr to work at the hospital.

Rush hour traffic congestion through Llandaff and along Western Avenue is nothing new. I recall in late summer 1984 when I moved to Cardiff to take up a post at the Heath Hospital considering buying a property on the (then new) Danescourt development (before the City Line existed). I became aware of rush hour delays in crossing the River Taff as I had temporary accommodation in Canton, so decided instead to buy a flat near Whitchurch station, which was closer to the hospital. While I did use my car when living in Cardiff, I also made extensive use of the relatively good public transport that existed then in what is a major city, and also walked for many local journeys, including to work. By contrast, public transport where I now live is virtually useless, apart from Metrolink, and my commute (exclusively by car) is much longer.
 
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Cardiff123

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51573051

Local stations around Cardiff have seen the biggest increases in passengers in all of Wales. It's worth looking at the table in the article, City Line stations have seen the biggest increases of all.

Railway passenger growth reaches 11-year high
The number of passengers using railway stations in Wales has grown by the largest amount in more than a decade.

More than 57.4m people used stations in Wales in 2018-19, up 9.4% from 52.5m the previous year, the largest rise since 2007-08.

Much of the growth occurred in the area surrounding Cardiff, with valleys and suburban stations seeing large rises.

Swansea, Bangor and Rhyl stations were among the 20 busiest, but increases were modest compared to the south east.
The figures, released by the Welsh Government, measure the number of entries and exits to railway stations over a 12-month period between April 2018 and March 2019.
Cardiff Central was the busiest station in the country, with 14,204,684 entries and exits, a rise of more than 1.2 million compared with the previous year.

But the greatest rise in passengers was on lines around the capital.

Of the 10 stations that saw the largest growth, seven were within Cardiff county, and the other three were on lines travelling into the capital.

Away from the capital region, changes have not been so marked.

Swansea station, the fourth busiest in the country, saw growth of 2.1%, up to 2.2 million last year.

Elsewhere in the south west, Llanelli station saw numbers drop by 0.2% and Carmarthen by 7.8%.

In mid Wales, overall passengers on the Cambrian main line dropped by 4.6%, with the number going through Aberystwyth station falling by 7.6% to 309,816.

In the north of the country, Bangor and Rhyl were among the 20 busiest, ranking 15th and 19th respectively, but growth was just 0.8% in Bangor and numbers fell by a handful of passengers in Rhyl.

Numbers increased modestly elsewhere, by 2.2% on the North Wales Coast Line, 2.6% on the Conwy Valley Line, and 3.8% on the Borderlands Line

Steve Fletcher, a commuter and the founder of the Arriva Trains Failed Wales Facebook page, said: "It surprises me that so many people are using rail, knowing how bad it is. It probably reflects even worse on all other forms of transport.

"The rail is getting no better. It went through an appalling service level in December and January time. I have put in no end of claims. It really surprises me that people continue to use it.

"It's very difficult to tell when you're used to being face-to-face with people every day. It's just different levels of discomfort.

"You notice more people left behind in the station now who are just unable to get on to the train in the mornings.

"It's the lesser of all the evils. It's the least worst rather than the best."

Transport for Wales (TfW) said it was "encouraged" to see more people using the rail network and was embarking on an £800m investment programme.

"More trains will be arriving later in the year, which will allow us to withdraw our oldest trains which will mean more seats on our trains," a spokesperson added.

"We also have exciting plans to build the South Wales Metro plus more reliable and more frequent trains.

"In December, we introduced an additional 294 Sunday services and by December 2023, we are going to run an extra 285 services every weekday."

However figures suggest some new trains on the Rhymney line's Bargoed and Penarth routes will have less capacity
 
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Llandudno

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51573051

Local stations around Cardiff have seen the biggest increases in passengers in all of Wales. It's worth looking at the table in the article, City Line stations have seen big increases.





Do the moderators think that this BBC news story is worth a separate thread as it refers to the entire Wales network not just the ’Metro’?
 

Cardiff123

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Do the moderators think that this BBC news story is worth a separate thread as it refers to the entire Wales network not just the ’Metro’?
It does refer to all of Wales so it can be posted elsewhere if needed, but I posted it here as the stations that have seen the biggest increases are in the Cardiff and Valleys future 'Metro' area so that will obviously have implications for the Metro plans.
 

Llandudno

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It does refer to all of Wales so it can be posted elsewhere if needed, but I posted it here as the stations that have seen the biggest increases are in the Cardiff and Valleys future 'Metro' area so that will obviously have implications for the Metro plans.
Yes, I appreciate that but the BBC article refers to all of Wales including reference to 7% drop at Aberystwyth and 2.6% increase on the Conwy Valley Line - not bad considering that it has been closed for huge chunks of the year!
 

Cardiff123

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Yes, I appreciate that but the BBC article refers to all of Wales including reference to 7% drop at Aberystwyth and 2.6% increase on the Conwy Valley Line - not bad considering that it has been closed for huge chunks of the year!
Ok well obviously you are welcome to start a new thread in General Discussion if you want to.
 

S-Bahn

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Article confirms what we knew already.
Demand for services in and out of Central and Queen St is increasing and TFW don't have the rolling stock to cope, particularly due to the lack of 769's.
Fortunately, the arrival of the GWR IETs, Turbo's and HST Castles has provided a big increase in capacity on the Cardiff-Bristol corridor, but TFW are going to need 4 car 150's and 769's for the core valley lines, and soon.
 

Cardiff123

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This article also poses the Q whether the new replacement Metro trains for 2022/23 are sufficient, esp the tram-trains for the Core Valleys via Pontypridd.

The Metro Vehicles for use via Pontypridd are only the same length as a 2 car 150. If all of the City Line stoppers are going to be down Aberdare and up Merthyr trains, they will have to run metro vehicles doubled up for these services or there just won't be the capacity for City Line passengers.
 

S-Bahn

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This article also poses the Q whether the new replacement Metro trains for 2022/23 are sufficient, esp the tram-trains for the Core Valleys via Pontypridd.

The Metro Vehicles for use via Pontypridd are only the same length as a 2 car 150. If all of the City Line stoppers are going to be down Aberdare and up Merthyr trains, they will have to run metro vehicles doubled up for these services or there just won't be the capacity for City Line passengers.

Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.
 

duffield

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...
Again, why does London still suffer congestion and pollution, when they have the best intergrated network in the country if not world?

I don't think anyone expected these issues to actually go away with the congestion charge, surely the important question is how much *worse* these issues would be by now if the congestion charge did not exist? (Difficult to quantify of course, you can do surveys on the lines of 'Would you start driving in the zone if the charge was abolished, but the answers may not reflect would people would actually do in practice).
 

Cardiff123

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Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.
The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.
 

S-Bahn

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The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.

I concur.
 

John R

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Relying on "we'll increase the service frequency, that will solve the capacity problems", doesn't take into account the passengers preferences for travel times (i.e. peak-time commuters).

They will need to run paired up tram-trains at peak times if they are to have any hope of mitigating the capacity issues.

It’s been noted several times that the plan is indeed for every other service to have doubled up trams.
 

S-Bahn

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It’s been noted several times that the plan is indeed for every other service to have doubled up trams.

And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
 

krus_aragon

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And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
Hopefully, with increased passenger numbers / farebox revenue helping the case for buying even more stock.
 

John R

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And if TWF find this is insufficient in the coming years, will they be able to purchase/lease extra units to make all services doubled up trams?
I’m not sure how you expect anyone to know the answer to that, but it would clearly be an option. To make all services double would increase the fleet size by around a third, so clearly a significant cost whether done now or in the future.
 

Dr Day

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A big difference between Pacers and trams is the amount of standing space per linear metre of vehicle. The new trams may have all seats taken by around Treforrest, but won't necessarily be 'full' by any stretch. We will see, but I think there could be a while before all the capacity (including standing) is exhausted and more doubling-up is needed.

I'm no expert in vehicle procurement, but I'm sure most manufacturers would have a clause that incentivises additional orders at a lower per unit price, as long as they still have the factory set up.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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The problem for the City Line and Coryton branch is that there will be no increase in service frequency on these lines, they are staying at 2tph, and the City Line will be getting tram-trains that will be coming down from Aberdare/Pontypridd no doubt already full.

That's true but in 'glass half full' mode isn't the agreement between TfW and Keolis-Amey more of a contractor arrangement than a 'set in stone' franchise deal? Presumably, improvments in frequency can be introduced if TfW is willing to meet the cost.
 

Cardiff123

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That's true but in 'glass half full' mode isn't the agreement between TfW and Keolis-Amey more of a contractor arrangement than a 'set in stone' franchise deal? Presumably, improvments in frequency can be introduced if TfW is willing to meet the cost.
Yes, I read in Modern Railways at the franchise award/launch that TfW / Keolis Amey can procure more trams / trains throughout the franchise if needed
 

edwin_m

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I'm no expert in vehicle procurement, but I'm sure most manufacturers would have a clause that incentivises additional orders at a lower per unit price, as long as they still have the factory set up.

Yes, I read in Modern Railways at the franchise award/launch that TfW / Keolis Amey can procure more trams / trains throughout the franchise if needed

Yes, it's typical for rolling stock order to include "options" for extra vehicles of the same design at a guaranteed price, although limited to a certain period after the main order and subject to adjustments for factors such as inflation and exchange rates. This is good for the manufacturer because they can sell more without the cost of developing a new design and bidding for contracts, and good for the operator because they get more of a proven design, again without the costly and time-consuming open procurement process that might land them with an incompatible micro-fleet. It also incentivizes suppliers to provide a good product, because if performance is poor the client probably won't take up the option.
 

Envoy

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Sounds from what is being said here that users of the City Line will be worse off than they are now with the Pacers - which simply loop around the city suburbs. If the people of Cardiff are expected to get on a rammed Tram-train going to/from the valleys & be lucky to get a seat, they simply won’t bother and will use the car or the bus.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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There was statement on the various Welsh Metro projects in the senedd today. There wasn't much meat on on it but here it is.

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. This Government’s ambition to see a more prosperous, greener and equal Wales is one I hope we all aspire to in this Senedd. I'd also expect everyone to share our ambition for a modern transport system in Wales, a transport system that plays its part in contributing to three ambitions: delivering economic growth in rural and urban areas; encouraging people to use more sustainable forms of transport in order to minimise environmental impacts; and providing efficient and affordable journeys accessible to all.

As we know, our railway infrastructure in Wales has been continuously and systematically starved of investment. Unsurprisingly, as a consequence, Wales has some of the UK’s slowest inter-city rail speeds, the lowest level of rail ridership, and the highest percentage of car journeys. This is simply not sustainable.

Our metro programmes in the south east, in the south west, and the north will deliver the necessary changes through a customer-focused, integrated, accessible and sustainable multi-modal network across all regions. Trains, buses and the active travel network will work together to connect people and places efficiently and effectively for work, life, and leisure.

To deliver this, however, we require Welsh Government to be in control of all the levers necessary to deliver a fully integrated transport system, and despite the constraints of the current rail ecosystem, in which the UK Government defines priorities and allocates investment according to their own priorities, the Welsh Government has nonetheless funded and progressed the ambitious south Wales metro programme to develop the economy and support regeneration across the Cardiff capital region.

And today, I wish to reaffirm our commitment to our metros and set out our plans to develop similarly ambitious programmes for south-west Wales and Swansea bay, north Wales, and further expansion in the Cardiff capital region. These will build on the current metro principles, but now with an even greater focus on connectivity, decarbonisation, and integration as we develop future phases.

Following the recent triggering of the transfer of ownership and responsibility of the core Valleys Lines, the next phase of this ambitious project will deliver electrification, new trains, faster and more frequent services, and provide the foundation for further and necessary expansion. This ambitious programme to address climate change, improve air quality, and relieve congestion clearly demonstrates what is possible when powers and funding are devolved and decentralised.

Now, until full rail devolution is secured, we need the UK Government to improve wider network capability, capacity and resilience including upgrading our mainlines to enable faster, more frequent, and more reliable services, alongside measures to address network bottlenecks such as Ebbw Valley and junction, between Wrexham and Chester, Cardiff west, and Swansea station.

Now, the spine of our metro in north Wales will be a major upgrade of the Borderlands line to offer turn-up-and-go services from Wrexham, and through working with Merseytravel, deliver services all the way through to Liverpool. We will develop our key hubs, for example at Shotton, to provide an interchange between rail services, as well as integrated bus services across our regional hubs. To effectively deliver integrated, attractive services across the north Wales coast and the Borderlands line, we need new all-stop commuter services to complement faster long distance services running on an upgraded, electrified mainline.

In west Wales and Swansea bay, Transport for Wales has worked with the region to develop an initial package of measures, including new long distance and local metro rail services along the currently under-utilised Swansea District Line, offering reduced journey times from west Wales to Swansea, Cardiff, and across the border.

The new metro services would, via new rail infrastructure, and a number of new stations and strategic park-and-ride sites, connect the urban areas of Swansea and Neath directly to both Swansea High Street and Neath stations, encouraging further development at those locations. Now, we've also progressed work to enhance and expand bus services in the Swansea bay region, which will be integrated with this rail programme. Subject to further business case development, this will be a rolling programme that will start to deliver benefits across the region within the next two years.

In advance of any changes to the devolution settlement in respect of rail infrastructure, I would like the UK Government to work with us to accelerate this programme. We wish to explore more innovative approaches to the application of traditional rail standards to assess the potential for new and/or reopened lines.

Our forthcoming bus legislation will offer us opportunities to significantly enhance and expand our bus services, filling in current gaps in our rail network and offering increased frequency, integration and speeds to our regional hubs. We will assess the potential for segregated busways and public transport priority measures to support further network expansion. These public transport networks will be critical to supporting regional and local economic development and regeneration. It will also allow us to develop places designed around communities.

Our climate change obligations dictate that we progress these ambitious proposals. We need to ensure that decision making on metros in Wales is fully integrated, of course, with regional planning and with wider investment in infrastructure and service delivery. The ongoing development and application of sophisticated transport, land use, and economic models covering the whole of Wales will provide the necessary analytical foundation for these developments. They'll also support our economic and regeneration interventions at key interchanges and at smaller community hubs across the country. In doing so, we want to work with local authorities to locate more of our public services and operations to hub locations connected to these networks.

We're already working on proposals to co-locate more activities near Wrexham General and our plans for Deeside Industrial Park station will offer viable public transport options for commuters. This approach could also have major impacts in Newport and Swansea where commuting contributes to daily peak-hour congestion on the M4.

Now, we're also working to embed the development and delivery of metros across the country to develop local supply chains, to diversify expertise, and expand skills. I have asked TfW to direct effort to develop and deliver our metros and will share further details of progress with Assembly Members.

Finally, Dirprwy Llywydd, to be clear, to deliver these programmes and to address decades of underinvestment by the UK Government in our rail network, we need ownership and funding of rail infrastructure. Wales has, for too long, been low on the list of Westminster's priorities for enhancing the rail network in England and in Wales. Rail devolution will enable us to put this right, building on the recent rail franchise award and infrastructure ownership, which are already delivering results. We look forward to the imminent Williams review and the White Paper to allow us to reform our railways and to create the fully integrated public transport network that Wales richly deserves. The effects of a decade of austerity have been felt across all regions and sectors. Plans by the UK Government to increase spend on infrastructure in this Parliament are very welcome, and Wales's share of this will amount to some £3.7 billion. With this funding, and a fair share of the HS2 spend over the next 10 years, we will deliver our plans to transform urban and inter-city connectivity in Wales.
 
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