Eurostar possible expansion?

[paul1609]

Snark aside, cle has already mentioned that it would be the Primrose Hill route. If you separated the Primrose Hill amd Kentish Town routes at Camden Road (see below), then all of your NLL worries disappear and you only have the freights to the WCML to deal with. One or two trains per hour (max) could deal with that.

View attachment 73496

The Skouse lot might find it a bit far on the train, but the Brummie lot (3 times more of them and half the distance from London) might not. From Birmingham, Brussels would be less than 3 hours and Paris about 3.5 hours. Amsterdam and Cologne would be about 4.5-5 hours, but most of the passengers wouldn't be making the full trip. Passengers would alight and be replaced at London and Brussels.

And that's before Old Oak Common adds a potential market from the GWR. A single change at OOC would sound much better for the Thames Valley lot than schlepping up to St Pancras.

So what rolling stock are these trains going to use? 374s UIC GC are currently limited to HS1 and platforms 3 and 4 at Ashford International in the UK. Are the Eurobrums going to be UIC GC and limited to a special International Platform at Curzon street? Obviously the North London Line rebuild for 1 through train a day needs to take this in to consideration. Or are we going to specify a common Euro-Northernmonkey set that will be classic compatible and allow through running to places such as Liverpool?

 

[Gadget88]

We are always open to exploring new destinations, but at the moment our focus is on making a success of our new service between London and Amsterdam,” a spokesperson told The Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...ly-rail-london-grant-shapps-a9320851.html?amp

Back tracking already as more sites have picked up on this story

 

[gingerheid]

If it was my commercial risk I certainly wouldn't be running any services from Europe to elsewhere in the UK until such time as:

-The UK joins Schengen
- There is a through connection between HS1 and HS2 via a place that is a major destination for both UK and European travellers (I'm mainly thinking Heathrow)

So yeah, shortly after the first London Tromso would be about right

 

[GingerSte]

So what rolling stock are these trains going to use? 374s UIC GC are currently limited to HS1 and platforms 3 and 4 at Ashford International in the UK. Are the Eurobrums going to be UIC GC and limited to a special International Platform at Curzon street? Obviously the North London Line rebuild for 1 through train a day needs to take this in to consideration. Or are we going to specify a common Euro-Northernmonkey set that will be classic compatible and allow through running to places such as Liverpool?

I'm afraid I haven't done a full gauging survey. However, I am aware of only two stations on my proposed link. Camden Road's services would be switched over to the currently disused platforms. Those platforms currently in use would be taken out of use, and so the platform edges could easily be moved out to satisfy the new gauging requirements. I understand from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen's_Park_station_(England) that the National Rail platforms at Queens Park station are not currently in use.

If those platforms were needed to be in use (eg TfL want to bring the Primrose Hill route back into passenger use), then this is what I imagine in terms of interlaced track. Stopping services take the tracks closest to the platforms, and freight/internationals take the furthest ones. This would involve moving the platform edge back half a metre or so, but that's not impossible if the platform has already closed (see above). It would be controlled by conventional signalling, but this would need additional interlocking to make sure an international train doesn't get signalled on to the platform track.



To be honest, for this scheme I would be more worried about the bridges, tunnels and retaining walls than the platforms. I don't personally know the gauge for all of these, and replacing them could be the most expensive part of the job (excluding the tunnel itself). If the 374s don't fit through, then maybe the 373s would, but I don't know.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Is there any reason Eurostar can't do that? Airlines are allowed to do their own checks, so it doesn't sound that weird to allow Eurostar to do the same.

None whatsoever, apart from UK paranoia about doing checks on-board trains.

 

[30907]

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/eurostar-trains-uk-spain-portugal-italy-rail-london-grant-shapps-a9320851.html?amp
Back tracking already as more sites have picked up on this story

Shapps isn't backtracking, ES is "failing to back him up" aka correcting him (or the interpretation put on his words by one national newspaper.

 

[sprunt]

Is there any reason Eurostar can't do that? Airlines are allowed to do their own checks, so it doesn't sound that weird to allow Eurostar to do the same.

They don't check to the same extent as the Eurostar origin checks, do they? After getting off a plane in Paris, you still have to go through passport control.

 

[dutchflyer]

Airline checks on their pax who have to adhere to specific rules on entry are common-like wanting to see a visa if the destination wants you to have one. They cannot check as thoroughly, nor even have the equipment to do that, as the real borderforcepeople have to do. I kindof think sprunt does not quite understand what borderchecks mean in fact nor all their consequences.
For me (a dutch continental) this is all just daydreaming. As long as the Uk is so afraid to join anything like Schengen or is paranoid about all those hapless souls in FR wanting to cross over the Channel, nothing will come of it. IF your Uk will start asking that EU-pax cannot enter on their ID anymore but must have full passprts (yuck, another thing we dont have so cannot understand? nor want) this will lead to a dramatic fall in people popping over-its not just for the pleasure of Brits that these trains run, they would not be viable at all if so. Having just for the pleasure of a few Brits large parts of stations fenced off and having British staff to man there the checks-it happens nowhere in this world.
The very best for now possibly way to a merger of the 2 will be to make more and more easy direct changes in Lille or BRussel with Thalys and/or TGV=OUI/SNCF on the Lille method-checks there before boarding the UK sterilised train. One could even look at how the Russians do that on the many trains that enter their giant country. (oh, would you even like to be compared to that?
BTW-just on another forum I read someone proposing new and more trains from LON to BRU-airport, which is underused, as a way to relieve overcrowding at Heathrow.

 

[williamn]

Presumably any Geneva service could utilise the existing international platforms which already have customs if not passport facilities?

 

[cle]

Any switching around or major civils at Camden Road would need to be to four-track the Overground through there - a far worthier and more 'populous' or beneficial cause than this boondoggle.

 

[paul1609]

Airline checks on their pax who have to adhere to specific rules on entry are common-like wanting to see a visa if the destination wants you to have one. They cannot check as thoroughly, nor even have the equipment to do that, as the real borderforcepeople have to do. I kindof think sprunt does not quite understand what borderchecks mean in fact nor all their consequences.
For me (a dutch continental) this is all just daydreaming. As long as the Uk is so afraid to join anything like Schengen or is paranoid about all those hapless souls in FR wanting to cross over the Channel, nothing will come of it. IF your Uk will start asking that EU-pax cannot enter on their ID anymore but must have full passprts (yuck, another thing we dont have so cannot understand? nor want) this will lead to a dramatic fall in people popping over-its not just for the pleasure of Brits that these trains run, they would not be viable at all if so. Having just for the pleasure of a few Brits large parts of stations fenced off and having British staff to man there the checks-it happens nowhere in this world.
The very best for now possibly way to a merger of the 2 will be to make more and more easy direct changes in Lille or BRussel with Thalys and/or TGV=OUI/SNCF on the Lille method-checks there before boarding the UK sterilised train. One could even look at how the Russians do that on the many trains that enter their giant country. (oh, would you even like to be compared to that?
BTW-just on another forum I read someone proposing new and more trains from LON to BRU-airport, which is underused, as a way to relieve overcrowding at Heathrow.

I don't think you have ever been able to visit the UK on an ID card alone as we have never been within the Schengen area. I think the only people who can are people from the Irish Republic. Don't think that Brexit makes us any less welcoming to our neighbours it won't. From my point of view there was no alternative to Brexit due to the high net inward migration of 250,000 people a year prior to the referendum. To house them alone would have required the building of two towns the size of Ashford every year. The English countryside would have been destroyed within a generation. The Australian type points based migration system will be a lot fairer imho.
If you want to run trains from London to a feeder airport theres no shortage of airports with spare capacity within the UK that would make a lot more sense than Brussels by the way.

 

[SHD]

As long as the UK was in the European Union, (and during the transition period), a French, Belgian, Italian, etc. ID card was (is) a perfectly valid form of ID to enter the UK.

 

[GingerSte]

Any switching around or major civils at Camden Road would need to be to four-track the Overground through there - a far worthier and more 'populous' or beneficial cause than this boondoggle.

That's what this does (between the junction west of Camden Town and the bit that's already 4-tracked)...

View attachment 73496

 

[Struner]

I don't think you have ever been able to visit the UK on an ID card alone as we have never been within the Schengen area. I think the only people who can are people from the Irish Republic. Don't think that Brexit makes us any less welcoming to our neighbours it won't. From my point of view there was no alternative to Brexit due to the high net inward migration of 250,000 people a year prior to the referendum. To house them alone would have required the building of two towns the size of Ashford every year. The English countryside would have been destroyed within a generation. The Australian type points based migration system will be a lot fairer imho.
If you want to run trains from London to a feeder airport theres no shortage of airports with spare capacity within the UK that would make a lot more sense than Brussels by the way.

Entirely OT of course, but fig 3 shows the net immigration from other EU countries, it seems you chased them off already:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...grationstatisticsquarterlyreport/november2019
& @SHD is right of course.

 

[paul1609]

As long as the UK was in the European Union, (and during the transition period), a French, Belgian, Italian, etc. ID card was (is) a perfectly valid form of ID to enter the UK.

I stand corrected, I cant really see any reason to change that then. I know in the UK my driving license is linked to my passport anyway in fact it uses the passport photo.

 

[paul1609]

Entirely OT of course, but fig 3 shows the net immigration from other EU countries, it seems you chased them off already:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...grationstatisticsquarterlyreport/november2019
& @SHD is right of course.

Yes, as soon as the exchange rate against the euro dived as a result of the referendum the net immigration from the EU plummeted. However that would have been presumably temporary if we hadn't had Brexit.

 

[MarcVD]

One could even look at how the Russians do that on the many trains that enter their giant country. (oh, would you even like to be compared to that?

Have done it twice... each time I have been checked on board, papers and luggage, by Belarussian border force, while the train was stationed in Brest, before being taken to the bogie change shed. Easy and painless, much better than the Eurostar check-in circus.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There is no connection beteeen HS1 and the NR Network at Stratford / Temple Mills. Even if there were, it wouldn’t be usable by Eurostars, as the West Anglia Main Line is at full capacity with trains to Liverpool Street and Stratford.

Finally, as explained on several previous threads, whilst there might be a market (demand side) for some overnight trains through the tunnel, there is no one willing to subsidise them to the tune of several hundred pounds per passenger to make them remotely attractive on a price basis.

If night trains through the tunnel aren't likely, all the more reason for a handful of through trains from out of London to get to Paris/Brussels in the evening, both for people going to those places and those picking up night trains to other parts of Europe from there.

I understand that any route from the other side of London used to connect with the tunnel line is likely to be busy already, but we'd be looking at maybe only 2 or 3 trains each day in each direction - so perhaps not impossible. I was thinking of trains leaving Paris/Brussels first thing, with people from the various sleeper arrivals, dropping some people off at Stratford International and then continuing during the morning to - say - Manchester (or wherever made sense as a focal point for other areas, where a relevant international "interface" could be built). [Alternatively, these services could be an experiment in on-train checking, like on the continent.] Then the same rolling stock would return from, eg, Manchester during the afternoon, picking up extra people at Stratford, and arriving at Paris/Brussels/wherever in time for onward sleepers from there.

The Temple Mills tracks are alongside the ordinary railway there, and could obviously be easily linked if they're not already. From that line, there's existing access (yes, no doubt it might take some updating in places, but the routes do exist, so building completely new routes isn't needed) to most of the lines out of London. It's not that this would necessarily be any quicker than changing between St P and another London terminus, but the idea of an occasional through train from out of London, direct to Brussels etc, would surely be attractive to the many people who say they're put off using Eurostar as is, because of the London interchange. The reason I've suggested making a connection from Stratford, in lieu of through trains via St Pancras [whether reversing or using the direct North London Line link which exists] is that there seems to be discussion of the difficulty of doing something with the Camden Road route, and via Stratford would use a different route across north London. And of course there's also the option of getting trains off the tunnel line at Dagenham, onto the ordinary network there, to save a reversal at Stratford.

 

[aar0]

The English countryside

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are being dragged out too...

 

[Bald Rick]

If night trains through the tunnel aren't likely, all the more reason for a handful of through trains from out of London to get to Paris/Brussels in the evening, both for people going to those places and those picking up night trains to other parts of Europe from there.

I understand that any route from the other side of London used to connect with the tunnel line is likely to be busy already, but we'd be looking at maybe only 2 or 3 trains each day in each direction - so perhaps not impossible. I was thinking of trains leaving Paris/Brussels first thing, with people from the various sleeper arrivals, dropping some people off at Stratford International and then continuing during the morning to - say - Manchester (or wherever made sense as a focal point for other areas, where a relevant international "interface" could be built). [Alternatively, these services could be an experiment in on-train checking, like on the continent.] Then the same rolling stock would return from, eg, Manchester during the afternoon, picking up extra people at Stratford, and arriving at Paris/Brussels/wherever in time for onward sleepers from there.

The Temple Mills tracks are alongside the ordinary railway there, and could obviously be easily linked if they're not already. From that line, there's existing access (yes, no doubt it might take some updating in places, but the routes do exist, so building completely new routes isn't needed) to most of the lines out of London. It's not that this would necessarily be any quicker than changing between St P and another London terminus, but the idea of an occasional through train from out of London, direct to Brussels etc, would surely be attractive to the many people who say they're put off using Eurostar as is, because of the London interchange. The reason I've suggested making a connection from Stratford, in lieu of through trains via St Pancras [whether reversing or using the direct North London Line link which exists] is that there seems to be discussion of the difficulty of doing something with the Camden Road route, and via Stratford would use a different route across north London. And of course there's also the option of getting trains off the tunnel line at Dagenham, onto the ordinary network there, to save a reversal at Stratford.

We’ve done this several times before. It’s not going to happen. Briefly:

The entire air passenger market from the north of England to Paris would fit on a daily Eurostar. The air market from the whole of the U.K. (excluding London) to the whole of Belgium would fit on another daily Eurostar. It simply couldn’t compete on time or frequency to get more than, perhaps 5-10% of the market. The market for onward sleeper connections from Paris, for passengers starting beyond London, who won’t already travel by train, will be zero.

Journey times will be poor. A service reversing at Stratford*, via Temple Mills, South Tottenham, Gospel Oak and Willesden would take the best part of an hour from arrival at Stratford to being on the WCML at Wembley. Longer for a train off HS1 at Barking. Both would be travelling on lines, for several miles, that are effectively at capacity for the entire ‘passenger’ operating day. A train leaving Paris ‘first thing’ (say 0600) would get to Stratford 0900... far simpler, quicker and easier to go via St P, that’s why the connections were built. Also there is no link from HS1 to HS2 via any route short of Crewe, so they’d be on the WCML. Without a reversal at St P, access to the ECML from Stratford / Temple Mills requires at least one more reversal. Manchester to Paris would be at least 6 hours this way, compared to 4hours via HS2 and a leisurely stroll through Somers Town with time for a coffee en route.

The Siemens Eurostars don’t fit on our network, in any dimension. The original Eurostars are too long for any platforms on the NR Network.

U.K. Border control. Very unlikely to change procedures.

It will not happen.

* Incidentally, a service reversing at Stratford can’t do it in the station. It has to go into the London running tunnels to access the Temple Mills line. Turning back a 400m long train, in passenger service, on a line that sees up to 12tph is not recommended!

 

[paul1609]

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are being dragged out too...

My intention was that its mostly the English Countryside thats under threat. I just don't see the scale of house building that would be required to house these people being built in Wales, Scotland or Northern Island.

I don't want to partake in a Brexit discussion but its hard to see how Wales is being dragged out when the majority of that countries voters voted leave.

 

[AlbertBeale]

We’ve done this several times before. It’s not going to happen. Briefly:

The entire air passenger market from the north of England to Paris would fit on a daily Eurostar. The air market from the whole of the U.K. (excluding London) to the whole of Belgium would fit on another daily Eurostar. It simply couldn’t compete on time or frequency to get more than, perhaps 5-10% of the market. The market for onward sleeper connections from Paris, for passengers starting beyond London, who won’t already travel by train, will be zero.

Journey times will be poor. A service reversing at Stratford*, via Temple Mills, South Tottenham, Gospel Oak and Willesden would take the best part of an hour from arrival at Stratford to being on the WCML at Wembley. Longer for a train off HS1 at Barking. Both would be travelling on lines, for several miles, that are effectively at capacity for the entire ‘passenger’ operating day. A train leaving Paris ‘first thing’ (say 0600) would get to Stratford 0900... far simpler, quicker and easier to go via St P, that’s why the connections were built. Also there is no link from HS1 to HS2 via any route short of Crewe, so they’d be on the WCML. Without a reversal at St P, access to the ECML from Stratford / Temple Mills requires at least one more reversal. Manchester to Paris would be at least 6 hours this way, compared to 4hours via HS2 and a leisurely stroll through Somers Town with time for a coffee en route.

The Siemens Eurostars don’t fit on our network, in any dimension. The original Eurostars are too long for any platforms on the NR Network.

U.K. Border control. Very unlikely to change procedures.

It will not happen.

* Incidentally, a service reversing at Stratford can’t do it in the station. It has to go into the London running tunnels to access the Temple Mills line. Turning back a 400m long train, in passenger service, on a line that sees up to 12tph is not recommended!

OK! Put me down as an incorrigible timetabling/routing equivalent of a crayonista.

 

[aar0]

My intention was that its mostly the English Countryside thats under threat. I just don't see the scale of house building that would be required to house these people

Did you know that only 1.4% of the UK is built on? Built on including factories and greenhouses etc (OS data)

 

[AY1975]

From my point of view there was no alternative to Brexit due to the high net inward migration of 250,000 people a year prior to the referendum.

No, it's a myth that being in the EU means you have to accept completely unrestricted immigration from the rest of the EU. The EU does give its member states the power to deport migrants from other EU countries who stay for more than 3 months without either finding a job or being able to support themselves. Unfortunately Theresa May didn't bother using those powers when she was Home Secretary, and nor did Labour when it was in power. When central and eastern European countries such as Poland joined the EU in 2004, Labour chose to let a load migrants from those countries into the UK, but it could and should have been better managed.

I know this is getting off topic, though. See also the thread on Britain's relationship with the EU post-Brexit at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/britain’s-relationship-with-the-eu-post-brexit.199652/

 

[sprunt]

I kindof think sprunt does not quite understand what borderchecks mean in fact nor all their consequences.

I understand perfectly well than when I catch a train from London to Paris, or from Paris to London I can exit the station at my destination without getting my passport out of my bag. I can't do that if I make the same journey by train. The checks performed by airlines are not the same as the checks performed by border personnel, and Eurostar performing those checks would not remove the need for border personnel.

Having just for the pleasure of a few Brits large parts of stations fenced off and having British staff to man there the checks-it happens nowhere in this world.

It happens in St Pancras International, where French border police decide whether to admit Eurostar passengers to the Schengen zone or not.

 

[cle]

Hong Kong's HSR station is now 'China' for immigration and policing purposes too.

 

[tasky]

Could always use Cologne Messe. Also they wouldn’t have to set down for one hour 5 mins like Lille as they would either go Thalys route to Dortmund or expand to Frankfurt. Frankfurt would be the end destination?

The problem with this is I think you'd lose quite a lot of connections - including to Berlin?

 

[Aictos]

The problem with this is I think you'd lose quite a lot of connections - including to Berlin?

Considering the two are 2 mins apart using public transport, I can’t see it being the end of the world as connections are still possible.

It would just be like prior to the TL Canal Tunnels being open with anyone from the GN wanting Gatwick having to walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras.

 

[EAD]

I stand corrected, I cant really see any reason to change that then. I know in the UK my driving license is linked to my passport anyway in fact it uses the passport photo.

Just to point out that it will likely change if the Home Office gets its way as it is not a fan of ID cards and want's everything to be scan-able with chips [well Border Force does ideally]. Anecdotally, some of my EEA citizen friends have had some pretty daft discussions at the UK border when re-entering as per usual on their ID card in the last couple of years (they live and work here), whereby they have been told they should use their passport next time although there is no obligation on the individual to do so [probably in sum because it is easier for the officer in terms of scan and capture against records].

On the passport - drivers licence link, that is basically a money saving idea when you request a new one to be issued - if you have valid passport you can tick to pull through that image to the new driving licence. They are not "linked" other than that and indeed a driving licence is not full valid ID in the same sense as government issued ID card is [within the UK it in essence is, but outwith it is not other than for driving, though practically it will be accepted if all that is needed is proof of name/address etc.]

 

[ainsworth74]

This isn't a Brexit thread. I can see that there's some overlap but we don't need to hash out the arguments that are general to Brexit rather than specifically any which apply to Eurostar. Please ensure that you keep to the topic thank you.