So, you're thinking of voting BNP because they're just misunderstood?

[EM2]

...The UK is very very tolerant by allowing the Muslim religion to integrate, but its still not enough...

How do you expect Muslims to integrate? What do you think they should do to integrate?

 

[yorkie]

TrainBrain185 - Did Christians "integrate"? Or did they invade and conquer?

Are you are a 100% descendant of ancient Britons with no trace of immigrant blood? Or do you accept we are a nation of immigrant?

Did you blame the IRA bomb attacks on Muslims?

 

[CarterUSM]

TrainBrain185 - Did Christians "integrate"? Or did they invade and conquer?

I trust you are a 100% descendant of ancient Britons with no trace of immigrant blood?

Not sure the Romans were entirely christian.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure the Romans were entirely christian.

Isn't Catholicism a form of Christianity?

 

[CarterUSM]

Isn't Catholicism a form of Christianity?

Indeed it is, actually 'catholic' means, broad or liberal scope, but i digress. The Romans were in no way majorly christian during their invasion of Britain. The emperor Constantine converted around the early 3rd century, but the romans had ruled for around 2-300 years by then anyway. Christianity was fully brought to thes shores from around the 5th-6thcenturies mainly by missionaries who converted the kings of the various realms such as Mercia, Kent and Northumberland, but again i digress. I'm with the others who ask for a bit of tolerance and moderation, it suits me, but it certainly doesn't suit many others with various idealogical and religious views unfortunatel.

 

[Snapper]

I can only assume the poster who suggest that people can't integrate because of their (Muslim) religion also disapproves of the present Christian churches still sending missionaries all over the world?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For example many many years ago when Birmingham held a Grand Prix, all was OK until the Central Mosque was built, at which point the Mullahs complained bitterly about the noise over ONE weekend a year. They were rather silent over the fact that it was their practice to call the "faithful" to prayer (if they are that faithful, why ?) 365 days a year using high powered loudspeakers at all times of the day including early in the morning.

Complaint from ordinary residents about this were lablled racist.

I'm really curious about this as it sounds like the classic spin story (look at the language for a start 'complained bitterly'). Really? What is the evidence to substantiate all this? The grand prix stopped because of complaints from a mosque? Really? because that's the inference here? I'm curious. How many complaints were received from other sources?

According to friends who are fans of F1 the real reasons for the race finishing have nothing to do with complaints from a mosque and everything to do with the management of the event, its finances and accidents.

I'm also curious. Has anyone ever heard the call to prayer "from 'high powered loudspeakers" (not just ordinary speakers note) from this mosque " "365 days a year" outside of the mosque itself?

The truth is that it's this sort of deliberate spin, innuendo and exagerration which does much to harm community realtions between groups.

 

[bluebottle]

Do you think places like Tehran and Baghdad would allow to build a Christian church slap bang in the middle of their manor? No way!

You might want to look into that. In a couple of minutes of Googling I've found a couple of christian churches in Baghdad and more than thirty in Tehran.

 

[Old Timer]

I'm also curious. Has anyone ever heard the call to prayer "from 'high powered loudspeakers" (not just ordinary speakers note) from this mosque " "365 days a year" outside of the mosque itself?

The truth is that it's this sort of deliberate spin, innuendo and exagerration which does much to harm community realtions between groups.

I had a suspicion it would be yourself who went down this (usual for you) route.

As recent as 2008 the matter was causing discontent amongst the local residents.

I do wish you could refrain from the usual villification of those who hold opposite opinions to you - normally a high proportion of those on here from what I can see.

Anyway as I said previously I really cannot be bothered to get into a long battle, moreso now (as predicted) that the religious equivalent of the race card has been dealt.

 

[Kneedown]

Not true. A crime has been committed whether or not it is reported. The CPS can prosecute even if there is no complaint.

In which case the complainant would be the Crown.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How can they "give up" the extremists? They didn't choose to make them muslim or accept them in the first place!

The Islamic community is a very close one. They know who the extremists are in their midst.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That does.

All i was doing was pointing out an ambiguity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my experience, people have only become concerned in the last five years or so because of the flood of Poles arriving as economic migrants

Concerns were surfacing at least 10 years ago. It was a hot topic on Adrian Allans late night phone in on Century radio. That was before Scotty McLoo took over (The phone in that is, not the Country)

 

[EM2]

The Islamic community is a very close one. They know who the extremists are in their midst.

Many, many Irish communities knew who the members of the various IRA factions and the INLA were in their local area, yet didn't give them up.
Everything you are accusing Muslims of, can be also said of sections of Christianity in the UK, and pretty much any other religion somewhere in the world (e.g. Zionists).

You may be interested in Robert Pape's Dying To Win which analysed *every* suicide attack between 1980 and 2003, and concluded:
'There is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world's religions'

 

[the sniper]

I argree with you on the point that Christianity also has extremists. Back in the 80's when it was all kicking off in the Lebanon there were Christian militia's as well as Islamic one's. Even the Crusades were a form of Christian Extremism, but the fact is, there are no Christian extremist groups today that are committing atrocities on the scale of 9/11, Madrid, or 7/7.

But, something niggles me here. 191 people were killed in the Madrid Train Bombings, while ETA have killed over 800 people since 1968. 56 people were killed in the 7/7 attacks, while the IRA over 30 years have managed to kill 1,800 people, of which 1,100 were members of the British security forces, and around 630 were civilians.

I think it's rather important keep a bit of perspective here, as the Catholics and Atheists/Nationalists still have quite a lead on Muslims when it comes to killing us decent folk.

For example many many years ago when Birmingham held a Grand Prix, all was OK until the Central Mosque was built, at which point the Mullahs complained bitterly about the noise over ONE weekend a year. They were rather silent over the fact that it was their practice to call the "faithful" to prayer (if they are that faithful, why ?) 365 days a year using high powered loudspeakers at all times of the day including early in the morning.

I think you might have got a bit muddled up here OT, the Birmingham Central Mosque opened in 1981 (according to wikipedia), four years before the first Superprix (1986 - 1990 RIP :cry. The Mosque wasn't really the main voice against the Superprix in the area, that was local residents who weren't happy about the noise or inconvenience of all the surrounding roads being closed, some were 'marooned' in the middle of the circuit (residents of the flats and houses between Bristol Street and Sherlock Street). Also, I can't profess to know much about Islam, but isn't their main day of prayer Friday? The Superprix wouldn't have affected this, as it didn't run on a Friday due to the roads having to be kept open for commuter traffic.

The main thing that killed the Superprix was the chronic loses that it made every year. The 1990 event lost £5m, the council got fed up of footing the bill, and when a sponsor couldn't be found for the 1991 race (Marlboro came close, but the council thought them unsuitable and they didn't offer enough cash), that was that for the Superprix.

Taking a wider view, the Church of England have had more run ins with Motorsport then the Muslims have, tbh. Racing can't start at Oulton Park until 10:30am so noise doesn't disrupt the local Sunday service. A similar situation is in place at Silverstone too, where there has to be a 45mins/1hr break in the schedule for any meeting held on a Sunday, including F1, so the local church can have a quiet service. There's nothing wrong with either of these arrangements, but I just thought them worth mentioning for a balanced argument.

 

[BlythPower]

Anyway as I said previously I really cannot be bothered to get into a long battle, moreso now (as predicted) that the religious equivalent of the race card has been dealt.

Race card..? More like OT going off in a huff after his prejudices have been exposed by reasonable argument. OT fanboys please note...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Race card..? More like OT going off in a huff after his prejudices have been exposed by reasonable argument. OT fanboys please note...

It's comments like these which make a reasoned debate impossible. Just because it is one persons opinion doesn't make it correct - and there are always two sides to every story - whoever said it.

I like OT as a person, however we have differing political views. This doesn't make me anymore right than him.

Politics debates are always subjective and are peoples opinions.

 

[Snapper]

I like OT as a person, however we have differing political views. This doesn't make me anymore right than him.

Politics debates are always subjective and are peoples opinions.

Hang on a minute. Whatever peoples differing political opinions are - it's still possible to be plain factually WRONG!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had a suspicion it would be yourself who went down this (usual for you) route.

As recent as 2008 the matter was causing discontent amongst the local residents.

I do wish you could refrain from the usual villification of those who hold opposite opinions to you - normally a high proportion of those on here from what I can see.

Anyway as I said previously I really cannot be bothered to get into a long battle, moreso now (as predicted) that the religious equivalent of the race card has been dealt.

What a complete cop-out and refusal to deal with the reality that someone has pullled you up for peddling innuendo dressed up as fact. You have refused to deal with a single point I raised.

 

[Old Timer]

Hang on a minute. Whatever peoples differing political opinions are - it's still possible to be plain factually WRONG!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What a complete cop-out and refusal to deal with the reality that someone has pullled you up for peddling innuendo dressed up as fact. You have refused to deal with a single point I raised.

The usual response from you Snapper, what I said about objections was correct and a little diligent research would prove that to be the case. In any case I lived and worked in the locality at the time we talk about...you didn't.

Your automatic response to any and every topic where (Muslims particularly I notice) are mentioned is to immediately go straight to the "race Card" even when people DO have a valid point.

Muslims are NOT some sort of protected species, and there are a sizeable proportion of adherents to that Religion who preach the denial of human and womens rights, who preach that murder is fine as a means of attaining Sharia Law, Islamic dominance, and a Glabal caliphate.

You along with a small proportion of those who hold your own particular beliefs continually act as apologists for these people by attempting to demonise and polarise any comment which raises fundamental questions.

The question I responded to concerned the denial of freedoms to members of other Religions. The items posted were factual.

I attach a link to observations about what is happening in Ireland, and how Fundamentalists are attempting to alter that Society.

It really would be nice if just for once you accepted that there are Mosques where preachers continue to preach hatred and dissension amongst the population, and are happy to bite the hand that feeds them. They profess to hate Western Society and its ideals yet are more than happy to remain here and be funded by our social and welfare systems rather than return to the Muslim Countries from which they fled. Countries in some cases which would not tolerate the hatred and bile that are spouted.

You meanwhile are deathly silent on condemnation of this, seeking only to twist each and every debate towards the proposition that the poster is fundamentally racist and that you are the one holding the front aginst repression and prejudice.

I have a Sikh neighbour. Last night before we went out to the pub he read your post. I will refrain from saying what his thoughts were, suffice to say that he views you as one of those who have been responsible for demonising any dialogue which threatens to ask awkward questions or raises the many concerns that a substantial number of people in some areas hold.

This has led to the rise of extremists who use that as a means to polarise debate on both sides of the argument.

Experience on here has proven that any form of debate rapidly descends into a slanging match. That I hope should be my last word on this.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/features...ist-ireland-ruth-dudley-edwards-ireland-islam

 

[Oswyntail]

...I have a Sikh neighbour. Last night before we went out to the pub he read your post. I will refrain from saying what his thoughts were...

That is as well. It is widely known that Sikhs seem to consider Muslims as being inferior beings. Not a good example.

 

[Kneedown]

Because they earn so much more here, that they can send money home

I'm no economist, but isn't sending money out of the country, as opposed to that money being reinvested in our economy, bad for the economy?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You always get problems when humans gets very ideological or tribal

Very true. Unfortunately we, as human beings, are no different to most other species in the natural world, ie rather territorial to a greater or lesser extent. It's just part of our make up. There's nothing we can do about it except manage the trait to the best of our abilities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many, many Irish communities knew who the members of the various IRA factions and the INLA were in their local area, yet didn't give them up

Very true, and they should've done so. It just goes to prove that loyalty to a faith or cause can very easily get in the way of doing the right thing.

Everything you are accusing Muslims of, can be also said of sections of Christianity in the UK, and pretty much any other religion somewhere in the world (e.g. Zionists)

I don't think i've accused Muslims in general of anything, and i've certainly previously on this thread, conceded that, Historically, Christianity has been less than perfect.

 

[Greenback]

The Islamic community is a very close one. They know who the extremists are in their midst.

Concerns were surfacing at least 10 years ago. It was a hot topic on Adrian Allans late night phone in on Century radio. That was before Scotty McLoo took over (The phone in that is, not the Country)

First paragraph - what a load of nonsense! The fact that you can come out with a sentence like this says more about you than anything else you have posted. It does you no credit to put this forward in a rational and reasonable debate.

Second paragraph - oh yes, the fact that it was brought up on a radio show (with how many listeners???) 10 years ago shows what exactly? At least now the debate has moved away from late night Laan Partridge radio phone ins.

I'm no economist, but isn't sending money out of the country, as opposed to that money being reinvested in our economy, bad for the economy?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Very true. Unfortunately we, as human beings, are no different to most other species in the natural world, ie rather territorial to a greater or lesser extent. It's just part of our make up. There's nothing we can do about it except manage the trait to the best of our abilities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Very true, and they should've done so. It just goes to prove that loyalty to a faith or cause can very easily get in the way of doing the right thing.

I don't think i've accused Muslims in general of anything, and i've certainly previously on this thread, conceded that, Historically, Christianity has been less than perfect.

All religions have fanatics that kill and maim in the name of their faith. We don;t disagree on everything! It;s interesting though, that people who believe in extremist beliefs of any nature also largely believe that human beings are like animals, and discount the human ability to reason rather than rely on natural impulses and instincts.

As for the economy, if that argument is taken further, then no one would be allowed tot ake or send money out of the UK at all. Bang goes your holidays abroad!

 

[GB]

Bang goes your holidays abroad!

Well no, not really. Tourism is practically a revolving door with the loss of cash in the British economy by holidays makers choosing to holiday abroad being boosted by holiday makers from other countries coming here.

Then there is also the various taxes and surcharges that most holiday makers have to pay as well as keeping British businesses in buisness which all goes to support both local and national economies and ultimately global economies.

 

[Greenback]

The world of immigration is also a revolving door, which is something the BNP don't seem to realise. The idea of immigrants sending money out of the country weakening the economy is as ludicrous as suggesting that people going on holiday and spending money abroad weakens the economy.

 

[Kneedown]

First paragraph - what a load of nonsense! The fact that you can come out with a sentence like this says more about you than anything else you have posted. It does you no credit to put this forward in a rational and reasonable debate.

Why exactly? Are you denying that the Islamic community is close? Are you denying that members of that community know who the extremists are? The point has already been made that large numbers of the Irish Catholic communities knew the identities of PIRA/INLA terrorists but remained silent. Could the same not be the case here?

Second paragraph - oh yes, the fact that it was brought up on a radio show (with how many listeners???) 10 years ago shows what exactly

It shows that concerns over immigration have been going on for at least twice as long as you think.

As for the economy, if that argument is taken further, then no one would be allowed tot ake or send money out of the UK at all. Bang goes your holidays abroad!

But we're not talking about a week or two's break in Tenerife or Costa Brava, we're talking about the practice of sending money out of the economy over a substantial period of time. Ok, if a few do it it's not going to make a deal of difference, but doing it en masse? I think that would be a different matter. But as i said, i'm not an economist.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I doubt anyone can remember the content of a late night phone in show on a geographical radio station 10 years ago exactly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It may not contribute to the countrie's economy immediatly, but it will contribute to the world's economy - the effects of which will be felt by the country.

 

[Snapper]

The usual response from you Snapper, what I said about objections was correct and a little diligent research would prove that to be the case. In any case I lived and worked in the locality at the time we talk about...you didn't.

More utter twaddle.

You offer no proof that any complaints (from a mosque or otherwise) had anything to do with stopping the Grand Prix.

Instead you go off at a tangent into a long diatribe which I can only assume is to cover up this fact.

You then manage to move on from a mosque which may (or may not) have made a complaint about noise to escalate this to 'preachers of hate' - and in your usual style get in more innuendo that has nothing to do with the subject you were quizzed on and at the same time levelling the same accusation of innuendo at anyone who pulls you up about it. Finally you throw in a story about a Sikh as yet another smokescreen.

The problem for you OT is that it's not just me who sees through your tactics and methods.

 

[Greenback]

Why exactly? Are you denying that the Islamic community is close? Are you denying that members of that community know who the extremists are? The point has already been made that large numbers of the Irish Catholic communities knew the identities of PIRA/INLA terrorists but remained silent. Could the same not be the case here?

Is it likely that a practising Muslim in Plymouth is going to know the identity of someone in Maidstone who may be planning to commit an atrocity? The point about Northern Ireland (on both sides, not just the Catholics) uis that it is a relatively small community. Your point should really be that all Catholics in Britain knew who the members of these groups were, as it seems that you are saying that Muslims generally will be well aware of who the terrorists are in their religion.

It shows that concerns over immigration have been going on for at least twice as long as you think.

Well, concerns about immigration have been around for centuries! What I mean is that the specific economic concerns about over population and the finite resources of the earth are more recent. There have always been people who shout 'send them back' and there probably always will, but more people are concerned now about how do we allocate resources, and not just in a British context either.

But we're not talking about a week or two's break in Tenerife or Costa Brava, we're talking about the practice of sending money out of the economy over a substantial period of time. Ok, if a few do it it's not going to make a deal of difference, but doing it en masse? I think that would be a different matter. But as i said, i'm not an economist.

Does anyone know how much money is sent to relatives in other parts of the world? Does anyone know how much money is actually spent abroad by UK holidaymakers? I think this argument is a bit of a dead end = a shas been said holidaymakers spend money in the UK too, and, obviously so do the people who have come to this country to work, presumably they have to eat? Even illegal immigrants spend money here!

 

[90019]

Well, concerns about immigration have been around for centuries! What I mean is that the specific economic concerns about ove rpopulation and the finite resources of the earth are more recent. There have always been people who shout 'send them back' and there probably always will, but more people are concerned now about how do we allocate resources, and not just in a British context either.

And what about those emigrating from the UK? They'll be taking their money with them out of the UK economy as well, so should we ban emigration?

 

[Greenback]

And what about those emigrating from the UK? They'll be taking their money with them out of the UK economy as well, so should we ban emigration?

Quite!

 

[90019]

Quite!

I know, lets build a big concrete wall around the UK to stop people getting in and out, that way, all the money will stay in the country, and we won't have any immigrants
Even better, two walls, with an area of no mans land between them, to make it harder for people to cross it!

 

[Snapper]

- and block up the Channel tunnel whilst you're at it!

After all, you can't be too careful nowadays...

 

[TrainBrain185]

Quite!

Those emigrating from the UK will be individuals that carry professional/business/technical/medical qualifications that will be of benefit to the country they emigrate too.
They will not be relying on state benefits and medical/housing/education assistance as the many current unskilled waifs and straifs/asylum seekers/gypsies recieve from a percentage of our hard earned taxes when they arrive in the UK.
I got no problem with immigration to the UK as long as it is controlled, the individual has a skill or qualification of benefit to the nation and they are not a burden to our public services.
Hopefully Mr Cameron will curb uncontrolled unskilled entry here as long as his Lib-Dem sidekick does not put a spoke in the works...

 

[Greenback]

Those emigrating from the UK will be individuals that carry professional/business/technical/medical qualifications that will be of benefit to the country they emigrate too.
They will not be relying on state benefits and medical/housing/education assistance as the many current unskilled waifs and straifs/asylum seekers/gypsies recieve from a percentage of our hard earned taxes when they arrive in the UK.
I got no problem with immigration to the UK as long as it is controlled, the individual has a skill or qualification of benefit to the nation and they are not a burden to our public services.
Hopefully Mr Cameron will curb uncontrolled unskilled entry here as long as his Lib-Dem sidekick does not put a spoke in the works...

He'll have to pull out of the EU to control unskilled entrants!