RMT to ballot guards on East coast

[CarterUSM]

As title says, the RMT have confirmed they are balloting their guard members on east coast as a result of barriers having been installed lowering their commission. Received an e-mail about it thus no link unfortunately. They are looking for an increase in salary by the looks of it to compensate. I had no idea of this scenario at all, don't remember it being discussed at branch meetings. Anybody else have any further info?

 

[Failed Unit]

Considering how easy it is to travel from say Doncaster to Newcastle without getting your ticket checked this is strange. Also most east coast stations are staffed and you can only buy open returns when they are not. The determined will dodge barrier or not. I can't see the gaurds losing much as I rarely see them issuing tickets. It is not like they are pay trains. Guess we will see.

 

[anonymous0101]

Considering how easy it is to travel from say Doncaster to Newcastle without getting your ticket checked this is strange. Also most east coast stations are staffed and you can only buy open returns when they are not. The determined will dodge barrier or not. I can't see the gaurds losing much as I rarely see them issuing tickets. It is not like they are pay trains. Guess we will see.

If you check transportinfo.co.uk you'll find some articles in there. According to one forum, east coast guards are only on a basic under 23k. whereas on virgin train managers can get nearer to 30k.

 

[yorkie]

What is a 'pay train'? I think that is a 1980s term from what I hear. On EC trains trains you can buy on board full-fare tickets and many business people do. I heard a conversation between passengers and staff a while back where someone in FC said they always made sure they bought on board their £260ish ticket so that the guards got £13 commission each time and it was easier for them too.

Morning trains net guards a lot of commission and this has become part of their expected income.

I'm not a fan of strikes, but I actually am siding with the guards on this one. Barriers are an inconvenience to many, and do NOT prevent determined 'dodgers'; as Failed Unit says if someone is trying to dodge they still will. And it will be a LOT easier for them, as all they need is a "sandwich" without a filling, and if the guards are less likely to check as it's all checked at the barriers, that's just easy for them!

Barriers are helpful to dodgers but annoying to genuine passengers, particularly when you encounter clueless barrier staff who you have to convince that some Rover they've never heard of is valid, or that you can in fact break your journey on your ticket, or that this particular "off peak" ticket is valid at any time after 4am!

If barriers were suitably staffed by helpful people who were clued up, it wouldn't be such a problem, but there's no chance of that happening consistently.

 

[Capybara]

'Pay Train'? 60s/70s more like. It was the term given to Eastern Region branch line trains such as I used from Harrogate to York and Leeds where you bought your ticket on the train meaning that stations could go unstaffed. You could only buy tickets between stations on that line mind you and had to go to the ticket office at Harrogate for anything further afield. Tickets were little square paper affairs and time tables were issued in leaflets which were predominantly green (similar to that used in that raileasy advert up there) with 'Pay Train' in large black letters on the cover.

 

[Aictos]

I disagree with the RMT action, look at Scotland where Glasgow, Aberdeen, Edinburgh etc...all have barriers yet I'm sure the guards are still able to get their commission on tickets sold or from tickets needing to be excessed.

Or what about the manual barriers at Kings Cross or Peterborough, tickets get checked before boarding when in operation yet still get checked onboard by the guard, so what's the difference between a manual barrier and a automatic barrier?

Plus you will always get people with Toc Only tickets such as FCC Only which are not valid on East Coast using them so it's instantly a full fare single for that journey or people using advance tickets but travelling on a train other then the booked one, especially if they wanted to travel earlier or later so again guards get commission on the full fare ticket.

However I do believe the guards deserve a payrise, say £28k to £30k, apart from that I cannot agree to the RMT on this one no matter how unpopular I will be!

 

[38Cto15E]

I hope this dispute will not affect my journey to the Kyle of Lochalsh, PBO-INV on the 8th and back on the 10th.

 

[Barn]

If you check transportinfo.co.uk you'll find some articles in there. According to one forum, east coast guards are only on a basic under 23k. whereas on virgin train managers can get nearer to 30k.

However, in this climate, I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing and able to work as guards for £23k.

 

[gordonthemoron]

EC guards would probably make some more money from penalty fares if they actually bothered to do a ticket check, I can't remember the last time I had my ticket checked between Leeds & Newark, a journey I take once a month, and the barriers at both stations are frequently open

 

[Bellwater]

Both EC and HT Guards are on a very low basic(HT until recently less than TPE/Northern!)So the Commission makes their money up.

Cheap and easy cost savings for EC through the back door.

 

[rail-britain]

When I worked on ICEC trains between Aberdeen and Newcastle the commission was pretty much hit and miss
The majority of customers had tickets
The usual ticket that needed to be issued was an excess due to it being a Saver day, passenger holding a SuperSaver

At weekends there was a great opportunity to "up-sell" Weekend First
The train was typically quiet until Edinburgh, so could advise customers the train would be busy after Edinburgh and if they wanted peace and quiet to move now
The same was true after Edinburgh
Equally, there wasn't any restriction on the ticket type held

For the other days it was normally passengers boarding without tickets, so it was full price
I know some Senior Conductors refused to sell returns, the commission on a single was higher

At the other end of the extreme were "commuters" and we generally didn't bother
A good example was the first HST in the morning Dunbar to Edinburgh
Senior Conductors instead were given a fixed enhancement to the pay, as issuing tickets would have meant using up three pads and only some of the passengers being issued with tickets (simply not enough time to get through the entire train)
A trial was conducted using three Senior Conductors (passengers were a bit miffed, the old argument not everyone would get a ticket, but we advised them that the train actually had three of us on it)
A few weeks later the train started carrying two Condutors (sent from Edinburgh by taxi) from ScotRail instead, the Senior Conductors were instructed not to perform ticket examinations between Dunbar and Edinburgh

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm surprised to hear east coast guards receive such a low salary compared to virgin, in fact, scotrail even pay just over 24k now. Before barriers were placed at queen street and waverley, some guards at these depots used to make more in commission than their actual wages! Thanks for the info anyway folks.

 

[tbtc]

I'm surprised to hear east coast guards receive such a low salary compared to virgin, in fact, scotrail even pay just over 24k now

I'd be interested to know the difference in what the roles require (to make a fair comparison).

As for the Guards; on the ECML they seem pretty reluctant to walk the train more than once or twice - perhaps due to the length of the train (you can walk a Pacer/ Sprinter end to end several times in the time it takes to get from one end of an HST to the other and back again). If they were really on comission, I'd have expected them to be keener to walk up and down a bit more (especially as the fares can be pretty high).

 

[Ferret]

I'd be interested to know the difference in what the roles require (to make a fair comparison).

As for the Guards; on the ECML they seem pretty reluctant to walk the train more than once or twice - perhaps due to the length of the train (you can walk a Pacer/ Sprinter end to end several times in the time it takes to get from one end of an HST to the other and back again). If they were really on comission, I'd have expected them to be keener to walk up and down a bit more (especially as the fares can be pretty high).

Crap excuse. I work HSTs and walk up and down them all the time - yes, they are long trains but I'm sure the exercise does me good!

 

[anonymous0101]

Crap excuse. I work HSTs and walk up and down them all the time - yes, they are long trains but I'm sure the exercise does me good!

I suppose once one ticket check has been done the guard would know where the passenger is going and only check new arrivals boarding the train. I think the main difference between an EC guard and say a northern guard is that EC trains travel a lot longer without stopping, so in theory there is less to do whereas on a stopping service, the guard could be rushing around checking/selling tickets as well as performing station duties including doors when stations are just a few minutes apart. Maybe some guards can comment?

 

[455driver]

I'd be interested to know the difference in what the roles require (to make a fair comparison).

As for the Guards; on the ECML they seem pretty reluctant to walk the train more than once or twice - perhaps due to the length of the train (you can walk a Pacer/ Sprinter end to end several times in the time it takes to get from one end of an HST to the other and back again). If they were really on commission

FGW train Managers manage to walk the train after every major station and they are only 1 coach shorter, 2+8 as against 2+9 on East Coast!

 

[sheff1]

There is considerable ticketless travel from Doncaster to York and return (both unbarriered) but it is extremely rare to see a ticket check on that section, presumably because the short journey time would not allow a full check, even by two conductors working together.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is considerable ticketless travel from Doncaster to York and return (both unbarriered) but it is extremely rare to see a ticket check on that section . . . .

I love it! The week's brand new verb: "to unbarrier"!

Yes, there are other sections in the north which are not regularly inspected, particularly at night, though I wouldn't exactly want to publise them.

 

[tbtc]

FGW train Managers manage to walk the train after every major station and they are only 1 coach shorter, 2+8 as against 2+9 on East Coast!

Seems strange that the ECML guards don't do it in that case.

I appreciate that you can't always do the full stretch inbetween every station, but "unbarriered" stations and lack of regular ticket checks is just going to encourage people not to buy tickets - even if you only get caught once or twice a week its cheaper not to bother buying a ticket.

I'm sure I've done Edinburgh - Doncaster before and only seen a Guard once

 

[trainfanatic]

From Thursday's 'Daily Telegraph'.....Apologies...I'm not sure how to link a newspaper article to the forum


Union threatens strike over automated ticket barriers
Train guards are threatening to go on strike because of the introduction of automated ticket barriers to deter fare dodgers.

By David Millward, Transport Editor
Published: 4:15PM BST 19 May 2010

The RMT transport union says 200 guards on the Government-owned East Coast line from London to the North East and Scotland could lose up to £1,000 each a year in commission.

It has called a strike ballot because of what it says is the failure of the company to come up with plans to compensate the guards for their lost income.


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On East Coast, guards who caught anyone without a ticket could sell them one on the train and would receive five per cent of the fare as commission.

The strike threat is the latest from RMT, the union which earlier this year was blocked from calling the first national rail strike since 1994 by the High Court.

Bob Crow, the union's left-wing leader, made no apology for RMT's decision to ballot its guards.

“Our members have made it clear that the loss of earnings arising from automation on East Coast is totally unacceptable and that they are not prepared to see the position of the guard undermined to the point where these key staff are reduced to become among the lowest paid guards in the country," he said.

“The management on the East Coast Mainline needs to show very clearly that they appreciate the role and responsibility of their guards with an offer that fully recognises the loss of income incurred through the installation of ticket barriers.

The threatened strike was condemned by Anthony Smith, chief executive of the consumer watchdog, Passenger Focus.

“Passengers will be very irritated if their train services were disrupted due to industrial action. East Coast and the union must keep talking to find a solution,” he said.

Meanwhile a spokesman for the Department for Transport added: “Any industrial action is regrettable but this is a matter between the train operator and their staff. We urge them to find a resolution so that disruption to passengers can be avoided.”

 

[A60K]

I suppose once one ticket check has been done the guard would know where the passenger is going and only check new arrivals boarding the train.

Genuine question - how many guards have a memory good enough to remember, even roughly, which passengers they have already checked and which are new on a long train? I imagine a few have got good memories, but most wouldn't be able to remember more than a small proportion.

 

[Pumbaa]

Virgin staff are generally terrible about this. Most staff rely on you fidgeting for a ticket when they come through asking for tickets from where you've just got on. If you sit blankly, they'll pass you by.

That applies for most staff on trains by the way, its just Virgin staff are particularly crap at remembering who got on where.

 

[yorkie]

I'd be interested to know the difference in what the roles require (to make a fair comparison).

As for the Guards; on the ECML they seem pretty reluctant to walk the train more than once or twice - perhaps due to the length of the train (you can walk a Pacer/ Sprinter end to end several times in the time it takes to get from one end of an HST to the other and back again). If they were really on comission, I'd have expected them to be keener to walk up and down a bit more (especially as the fares can be pretty high).

EC guards tend to check every little detail, this takes longer. If a 'typical' Northern guard checked EC, they;'d make sure everyone had a ticket, and would sell more tickets for sure, but people on the wrong train or have an out of date railcard or going by a potentially invalid route would be much less likely to be charged. EC's approach probably gets more revenue, as someone on a £10 AP ticket can potentially make them £100, but ensuring everyone has tickets for Donny-Retford or Newark-Grantham will net far lower amounts. There would also be a lot less newspaper stories about people being unfairly charged, and also the court case that GNER lost regarding rovers would not have happened
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is considerable ticketless travel from Doncaster to York and return (both unbarriered) but it is extremely rare to see a ticket check on that section, presumably because the short journey time would not allow a full check, even by two conductors working together.

Is there any evidence of this? I ask because, although ECs policy is that full fare tickets are available on board, I've never actually known anyone sat near me to be sold such a ticket between Donny and York. And yes I have travelled on the route many times, and a full inspection is sometimes carried out on this section. Yet everyone seems to already have a ticket. I think it's one of those myths that just gets re-circulated. There isn't a huge number of people who do Donny-York either, that's another myth I think. York-Leeds , on the other hand, does have a huge market.

At peak time I am sure many more buy tickets on board though, and this is where there is huge loss of income to guards, potentially much more than a normal day's wages on something like the Yorkshire Pullman I'd have thought.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess we will never know what the get with people not having a ticket at all. I am sure the money the make from excessing aps will be the same. I can certainly see there point. Many people accept lower basic because the commission makes thier salary a lot better. I would be looking to take action myself if I was in the east coasts gaurds position. Hopefully the management will sort this before the passengers lose.

 

[gingerheid]

I didn't realise they were on commission. Is this why I've had a couple of EC commission chasers determined to try and (dishonestly) say my ticket wasn't valid then?

 

[spoony]

Commission/bonus can never be relied upon as a means of income as by its very nature it cannot be guaranteed. In my opinion it is a quite ludicrous thing to strike over.

 

[Greenback]

I can't remember whether FGW conductors got an increase in salasry when barriers were introduced on the GWML. Knowing First (at that time anyway), I doubt it!

If they did, then the EC staff have slightly more justification, but I do think it's a ridculous reason to strike! Hopefully, the conductors themselves will agree, and vote against it! Don't forget, it's a pay issue here, not a question of whether barriers are effective!

 

[sheff1]

Is there any evidence of this? I ask because, although ECs policy is that full fare tickets are available on board, I've never actually known anyone sat near me to be sold such a ticket between Donny and York. And yes I have travelled on the route many times, and a full inspection is sometimes carried out on this section. Yet everyone seems to already have a ticket. I think it's one of those myths that just gets re-circulated. There isn't a huge number of people who do Donny-York either, that's another myth I think.

The only evidence I have is of my own eyes and ears. I can't believe that the people who openly talk about not having, and never buying, a ticket (i) always get into the carriage I am in at York and no other and/or (ii) are all lying about their lack of a ticket just for effect.

Maybe it is just the times I am travelling (normally bewteen 1900 & 2200) but, more often than not, such people sit close to me on this section - multiply by the number of other carriages/other trains and the total would indeed be considerable.

 

[tbtc]

Friday afternoon, Newcastle to Edinburgh, no ticket check (90 min journey? stopping at Berwick)

Sunday afternoon, Edinburgh to Doncaster, one ticket check (two hours? stopping at Berwick/ Durham/ Darlington/ York)

 

[Failed Unit]

Friday afternoon, Newcastle to Edinburgh, no ticket check (90 min journey? stopping at Berwick)

Sunday afternoon, Edinburgh to Doncaster, one ticket check (two hours? stopping at Berwick/ Durham/ Darlington/ York)

Very common, Newcastle - Edinburgh is particully bad as they expect most people have been checked further South. Catering closing at Morpeth to stocktake etc. I guess now everyone boarding at Newcastle has been through the barriers.