RMT to ballot guards on East coast

[anonymous0101]

Are Virgin Trains staff any better with walking through their trains and checking tickets?

 

[Failed Unit]

Are Virgin Trains staff any better with walking through their trains and checking tickets?

From my experience they normally pass through after every station, however if you just gaze out the window they just walk past. Remember Virgin don't have as many gated stations on thier route. On East Coast a majority of the stations have some sort of gating.

Kings Cross (Goons)
Stevenage (Ticket Barriers)
Peterborough ?
Grantham (Ticket Barriers)
Newark (Ticket Barriers)
Retford ?
Doncaster ?
Wakefield ?
Leeds (Ticket Barriers)
York (None)
Northallerton (None)
Darlington (Ticket Barriers)
Durham (Ticket Barriers)
Newcastle (Ticket Barriers)
North of Newcastle none.

I am sure others can fill in the ?. The problem with depending on ticket barriers is that passengers can legitamately board without a ticket. Take someone who has come from Collingham on EMT, the guard doesn't have time to sell them a ticket they are on the platform at Newark so thier first chance to buy is now on East Coast. I know TVM's have got better but places like Knebworth you would have normally only had a permit to many destinations as the TVM's at the time could sell you a return to Metrocentre.

 

[tbtc]

Catering closing at Morpeth to stocktake etc

That was another surprise. Going south yesterday from Edinburgh, the buffet had closed by Dunbar (we didn't stop, but they announced it was closing before the train was even beyond Mussleburgh). I thought with electronic tagging etc they wouldn't need to spend so long on "stock checks" etc?

 

[jon0844]

How often do they do manual blocks at the gates to platforms 0-7? I see them hardly ever, and I'd never be particularly worried about there being a chance of being caught there - it would be so minimal.

 

[Aictos]

Peterborough has manual blocks in the morning from 6am to about 1pm although there has been times when both East Coast and FCC have held joint blocks with staff from both companies working together checking tickets in the evening which is very much random, there's no knowing if and when these evening blocks will happen.

You tend to find out when you get there.

 

[anonymous0101]

From my experience they normally pass through after every station, however if you just gaze out the window they just walk past. Remember Virgin don't have as many gated stations on thier route. On East Coast a majority of the stations have some sort of gating.

I'm just wondering whether Virgin Trains staff are more customer service focused because of their links with the airline. It seems boarding one of their trains is more akin to flying virgin than boarding a train in terms of the customer service experience whereas perhaps East Coast is a bit like the British Airways style of cabin crew service

 

[silentone]

Very common, Newcastle - Edinburgh is particully bad as they expect most people have been checked further South. Catering closing at Morpeth to stocktake etc. I guess now everyone boarding at Newcastle has been through the barriers.

I think some of these examples being given are very isolated as the majority of guards will go through the train checking tickets.

As for catering there is no reason for a crew to close at Morpeth on a Northbound trip for 'stocktaking.' Guards & Catering Crew alike there will always be certain members of staff who let down the rest.

This issue with the strike ballot is the most confusing I've ever seen. East Coast say that there is no apetite from Guards to strike - which is as far as I can see is true. Those that seem to wish to strike are active union members and the subject is becoming a bit of a hot potato as the Guards have had some rather generous settlements in the past. There are a large number of Guards who now encourage the sale of Underground tickets on-board and lets just say they are laughing at the return!

Any potential strike action could really split the company as there doesn't seem to be a great deal of support for the guards on the subject. I do believe the company already made an offer on this matter which was refused, there was also a pay award agreed for this year and next which was far more than was expected considering the events of the last year.

This union seem to be testing the patience of its members.

 

[Geezertronic]

I'm just wondering whether Virgin Trains staff are more customer service focused because of their links with the airline. It seems boarding one of their trains is more akin to flying virgin than boarding a train in terms of the customer service experience whereas perhaps East Coast is a bit like the British Airways style of cabin crew service

I almost always get my ticket checked travelling from BHI-EUS but on the return journey, if the ticket was checked on the gate at Euston, you only see the Train Manager when he/she does their passenger count (or if they are taking the driver a drink )

 

[tbtc]

you only see the Train Manager when he/she does their passenger count

That annoys me, when they come through "clicking" the number of passengers, but not checking their tickets

 

[anonymous0101]

Well at least they are visible i suppose.

 

[Geezertronic]

That annoys me, when they come through "clicking" the number of passengers, but not checking their tickets

I don't think it's a problem if the tickets have been checked at the gate at Euston though. And even if the service stops at Milton Keynes Central or Watford Junction, the Train Manager could tell who entered the service when he/she manages the door closing.

 

[andylloyd]

There are a large number of Guards who now encourage the sale of Underground tickets on-board and lets just say they are laughing at the return!

Is this common knowledge then? If so what are the going rates? Normal prices i.e £7.50 for an all zone travelcard?

 

[sheff1]

Seems strange that the ECML guards don't do it in that case.

I appreciate that you can't always do the full stretch inbetween every station, but "unbarriered" stations and lack of regular ticket checks is just going to encourage people not to buy tickets - even if you only get caught once or twice a week its cheaper not to bother buying a ticket.

I'm sure I've done Edinburgh - Doncaster before and only seen a Guard once

Nothing changes. Travelled Edinburgh to Doncaster on the 1900 departure yesterday. No ticket check at all despite leaving from an open platform at Waverley, no barriers at Dunbar, Berwick or York, gates locked open at Durham (couldn't see the gates at Newcastle or Darlington)

200+ joined at York where the ticket office is closed at that time. No doubt most joiners had tickets but, based on past exeperience, I suspect a number didn't.

 

[Aictos]

Peterborough is now gated Monday to Saturday as per local management instructures.

 

[blacknight]

Guards cannot win with public on this one go through train & do 100% ticket inspection after every station & your a jobsworth company employee.
Go through a train & call for any tickets from you rely on honestly of travelling public, something sadly lacking in hardcore fare dodgers. Before gating of stations commission was a reward for hard work going through train looking for ticketless travel which in theory ticket gates have eliminated
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing changes. Travelled Edinburgh to Doncaster on the 1900 departure yesterday. No ticket check at all despite leaving from an open platform at Waverley, no barriers at Dunbar, Berwick or York, gates locked open at Durham (couldn't see the gates at Newcastle or Darlington)

200+ joined at York where the ticket office is closed at that time. No doubt most joiners had tickets but, based on past exeperience, I suspect a number didn't.

At present ticket gates can only operate if ticket office is open hence reason gates are oftern left open alot. Also wages cost more than revenue collected so to bean counters ticketless travel is an acceptable price to to pay. As guards have now agreed a deal with East Coast for loss of commission caused by gating & AP ticketing both hard working & idle get the same so if you can't beat them join them.

 

[Failed Unit]

Guards cannot win with public on this one go through train & do 100% ticket inspection after every station & your a jobsworth company employee.
Go through a train & call for any tickets from you rely on honestly of travelling public, something sadly lacking in hardcore fare dodgers. Before gating of stations commission was a reward for hard work going through train looking for ticketless travel which in theory ticket gates have eliminated

Could I have a Collingham - London KX return please. What you didn't buy it before hand why not? The EMT's gaurds ticket machine wasn't working. Why didn't you buy it at Newark? I had a 7 minute connection which I would have missed and would have needed to pass your barriers to get to the ticket purchasing area.

So as you say East Coast will still lose revenue if tickets are not checked based on the assumption the stations is gated! Unhappy from Collingham will be in London before they get thier ticket and them probably be hit with a penalty fare as they didn't find the gaurd. (I regaurd only been able to buy an open return when a super off peak is valid as a penalty fare.) I guess they could just say they got on a Finsbury Park as they are getting hit anyway.

 

[Greenback]

Barriers are only part of the solution to tackling fare evasion. We all know that regular on train inspections act as both a deterrent and good customer service, as the conductor can answer questions and provide the human face of the travel experience.

TBH, I think that guards who don't bother to walk the train are doing themselves, their customers and their colleagues a disservice. If they don't bother because there's no commission in it, or not enough commission, then they are simply not doing their job correctly.

 

[blacknight]

Could I have a Collingham - London KX return please. What you didn't buy it before hand why not? The EMT's gaurds ticket machine wasn't working. Why didn't you buy it at Newark? I had a 7 minute connection which I would have missed and would have needed to pass your barriers to get to the ticket purchasing area.

So as you say East Coast will still lose revenue if tickets are not checked based on the assumption the stations is gated! Unhappy from Collingham will be in London before they get thier ticket and them probably be hit with a penalty fare as they didn't find the gaurd. (I regaurd only been able to buy an open return when a super off peak is valid as a penalty fare.) I guess they could just say they got on a Finsbury Park as they are getting hit anyway.

Maybe posters should be put up like sign EMT have at Newark Castle which states passenger must actively seek out the guard to buy a ticket or EMT could install a TVM at Collingham.
In East Coasts defence they do state in timetable its passenger responsibility to buy ticket before they board so connection time is irrelevant & trains south are frequent.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe posters should be put up like sign EMT have at Newark Castle which states passenger must actively seek out the guard to buy a ticket or EMT could install a TVM at Collingham.
In East Coasts defence they do state in timetable its passenger responsibility to buy ticket before they board so connection time is irrelevant & trains south are frequent.

I beg to differ. EMT won't install a TVM at many of thier local stations as they don't make enough money to cover the costs and most times the on train arrangements work. In my example the ticket machine wasn't working on the EMT train (I does happen you know, more often then you think).

But why should I miss a connection because the railway can't sell me a ticket? Lets say I am wanting to catch the 0729 to London Kings Cross, do you really think that because I don't have a ticket I should miss it and wait for the 0834 :roll: Likewise the perfect storm you have been unable to buy on the train it is running late and you want to catch the 0737 Edinburgh service again would you really expect someone to miss it?

Yes you should go an find someone willing to sell you a ticket on the East Coast train, so where do you start looking. An irregular traveller wouldn't know the gaurd is at the front of first class, I know you could ask at the buffet, but some TOC's think that barriers rule the world and if you don't have a ticket you are a criminal. I think the half way house is needed, the gaurd walks down the train you stop them, they sell you the best ticket for the journey. Not many people from Collingham would expect to get to London without seeing a least one member of stall walk through the train. But the day that the conditions of carriage change to force people to miss trains to buy tickets when they have made reasonable effort to do so will be the day I stop travelling by train.

 

[Mojo]

At present ticket gates can only operate if ticket office is open hence reason gates are oftern left open alot.

Is that just an East Coast policy? I've travelled through Bristol Parkway over an hour after the ticket office has closed to find the ticket barriers still in operation and similarly at Oxford in late evening and the barriers are still in operation after the ticket office closes (at the ridiculously early) 8pm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe posters should be put up like sign EMT have at Newark Castle which states passenger must actively seek out the guard to buy a ticket...

There is no requirement to seek out the guard if boarding at an unstaffed station. If the ticket office is open and you are running late it is obviously courtesy to ask if you can buy a discounted ticket onboard and anyone who didn't ask beforehand would have few grounds for complaint if boarding at such a station and being charged the SDR fare.

 

[Tom B]

Commission/bonus can never be relied upon as a means of income as by its very nature it cannot be guaranteed. In my opinion it is a quite ludicrous thing to strike over.

Exactly my thoughts.

Bob Crow and the RMT seem to be intent on losing all possible support from the public - silly strikes such as this distract from those which are called over genuine issues.

As to East Coast, in general they seem to be very variable - ticket collections sometimes happen after every station, sometimes once per journey. Likewise the catering service is laughable - the staff spend more time doing "stocktakes" than actually working.

 

[Greenback]

I beg to differ. EMT won't install a TVM at many of thier local stations as they don't make enough money to cover the costs and most times the on train arrangements work. In my example the ticket machine wasn't working on the EMT train (I does happen you know, more often then you think).

But why should I miss a connection because the railway can't sell me a ticket? Lets say I am wanting to catch the 0729 to London Kings Cross, do you really think that because I don't have a ticket I should miss it and wait for the 0834 :roll: Likewise the perfect storm you have been unable to buy on the train it is running late and you want to catch the 0737 Edinburgh service again would you really expect someone to miss it?

Yes you should go an find someone willing to sell you a ticket on the East Coast train, so where do you start looking. An irregular traveller wouldn't know the gaurd is at the front of first class, I know you could ask at the buffet, but some TOC's think that barriers rule the world and if you don't have a ticket you are a criminal. I think the half way house is needed, the gaurd walks down the train you stop them, they sell you the best ticket for the journey. Not many people from Collingham would expect to get to London without seeing a least one member of stall walk through the train. But the day that the conditions of carriage change to force people to miss trains to buy tickets when they have made reasonable effort to do so will be the day I stop travelling by train.

Too right! Making the customer walk the train ins earch of a guard would also assist those member sof staff who don't want to leave their cabs and do the job they are paid to do!

I've often asked myself why it is that the railway seems to take such delight out of inconveniencing its customers whenerever it can. I still don;t know the answer...

Is that just an East Coast policy? I've travelled through Bristol Parkway over an hour after the ticket office has closed to find the ticket barriers still in operation and similarly at Oxford in late evening and the barriers are still in operation after the ticket office closes (at the ridiculously early) 8pm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no requirement to seek out the guard if boarding at an unstaffed station. If the ticket office is open and you are running late it is obviously courtesy to ask if you can buy a discounted ticket onboard and anyone who didn't ask beforehand would have few grounds for complaint if boarding at such a station and being charged the SDR fare.

That seems like a fair and reasonable analysis. And the barriers at Swansea remain open after the closure of the ticket office. Perhaps Blacknight is confusing the fact that barriers have to be staffed to remain in operation?

 

[Failed Unit]

Is that just an East Coast policy? I've travelled through Bristol Parkway over an hour after the ticket office has closed to find the ticket barriers still in operation and similarly at Oxford in late evening and the barriers are still in operation after the ticket office closes (at the ridiculously early) 8pm.

I know it is a slightly different situation, but I thought that barriers had to open if no member of staff was able to assist passengers who's tickets are not accepted by the barriers for whatever reason. I know CT got into trouble for "trapping" passengers by having the gate shut and no one to assist at Lincoln

There is no requirement to seek out the guard if boarding at an unstaffed station. If the ticket office is open and you are running late it is obviously courtesy to ask if you can buy a discounted ticket onboard and anyone who didn't ask beforehand would have few grounds for complaint if boarding at such a station and being charged the SDR fare.

Again depends why you are running late, if you have just got off a connecting train and it is a valid connection then surely you should be able to just buy on board? At Newark it is a cross platform connection so it is quite possible that you get between the trains without seeing a member of staff (which in that case are saying London passengers cross quickly). Surely no member of staff would say, no I can only change you the open return unless you miss this train and wait for the next one. Something that would cause you over 1 hour delay if you were trying to catch the 0737 Newark - Edinburgh service.

 

[Greenback]

I know it is a slightly different situation, but I thought that barriers had to open if no member of staff was able to assist passengers who's tickets are not accepted by the barriers for whatever reason. I know CT got into trouble for "trapping" passengers by having the gate shut and no one to assist at Lincoln


Again depends why you are running late, if you have just got off a connecting train and it is a valid connection then surely you should be able to just buy on board? At Newark it is a cross platform connection so it is quite possible that you get between the trains without seeing a member of staff (which in that case are saying London passengers cross quickly). Surely no member of staff would say, no I can only change you the open return unless you miss this train and wait for the next one. Something that would cause you over 1 hour delay if you were trying to catch the 0737 Newark - Edinburgh service.

Yes, if you are off a connecting train I agree, I assume Mojo meant if you just turn up at your origin station late!

 

[Mojo]

I know it is a slightly different situation, but I thought that barriers had to open if no member of staff was able to assist passengers who's tickets are not accepted by the barriers for whatever reason. I know CT got into trouble for "trapping" passengers by having the gate shut and no one to assist at Lincoln.

The Railway Group Standards for automatic ticket gates (ATGs) are quite clear; there must be someone who can dedicate appropriate levels of time to monitor the ATGs and in many cases this would be ticket office staff (for quieter stations and where the TOCs aren't bothered about customer service or people who don't have a ticket and just want the barriers there for show) or gateline staff. However they are also allow for remote monitoring by CCTV; aside for stations where there are multiple gatelines and one or more are unstaffed, I'm not aware of places on the national network where this happens (but I've not been everywhere!), although it's quite commonplace on LU.

 

[Sceptre]

From my experience they normally pass through after every station, however if you just gaze out the window they just walk past. Remember Virgin don't have as many gated stations on thier route. On East Coast a majority of the stations have some sort of gating.

Kings Cross (Goons)
Stevenage (Ticket Barriers)
Peterborough ?
Grantham (Ticket Barriers)
Newark (Ticket Barriers)
Retford ?
Doncaster ?
Wakefield ?
Leeds (Ticket Barriers)
York (None)
Northallerton (None)
Darlington (Ticket Barriers)
Durham (Ticket Barriers)
Newcastle (Ticket Barriers)
North of Newcastle none.

I am sure others can fill in the ?. The problem with depending on ticket barriers is that passengers can legitamately board without a ticket. Take someone who has come from Collingham on EMT, the guard doesn't have time to sell them a ticket they are on the platform at Newark so thier first chance to buy is now on East Coast. I know TVM's have got better but places like Knebworth you would have normally only had a permit to many destinations as the TVM's at the time could sell you a return to Metrocentre.

Wakefield has no barriers.

 

[blacknight]

Is that just an East Coast policy? I've travelled through Bristol Parkway over an hour after the ticket office has closed to find the ticket barriers still in operation and similarly at Oxford in late evening and the barriers are still in operation after the ticket office closes (at the ridiculously early) 8pm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is no requirement to seek out the guard if boarding at an unstaffed station. If the ticket office is open and you are running late it is obviously courtesy to ask if you can buy a discounted ticket onboard and anyone who didn't ask beforehand would have few grounds for complaint if boarding at such a station and being charged the SDR fare.

EMT have placed a sign to that effect at Newark Castle just as you enter on to platform1 at signal box end. Was talk when EMT aka Stagecoach won franchise they would reopen ticket office part time basis but instead have installed a TVM on platform1.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I beg to differ. EMT won't install a TVM at many of thier local stations as they don't make enough money to cover the costs and most times the on train arrangements work. In my example the ticket machine wasn't working on the EMT train (I does happen you know, more often then you think).

But why should I miss a connection because the railway can't sell me a ticket? Lets say I am wanting to catch the 0729 to London Kings Cross, do you really think that because I don't have a ticket I should miss it and wait for the 0834 :roll: Likewise the perfect storm you have been unable to buy on the train it is running late and you want to catch the 0737 Edinburgh service again would you really expect someone to miss it?

Yes you should go an find someone willing to sell you a ticket on the East Coast train, so where do you start looking. An irregular traveller wouldn't know the gaurd is at the front of first class, I know you could ask at the buffet, but some TOC's think that barriers rule the world and if you don't have a ticket you are a criminal. I think the half way house is needed, the gaurd walks down the train you stop them, they sell you the best ticket for the journey. Not many people from Collingham would expect to get to London without seeing a least one member of stall walk through the train. But the day that the conditions of carriage change to force people to miss trains to buy tickets when they have made reasonable effort to do so will be the day I stop travelling by train.

At 7.29 in morning unless you have a railcard as only open tickets are valid for travelling to London on that & 8.34. It is stated in timetable that only these fares are available on board & guards do get questioned as to why other ticket types have been soldon board.

 

[Failed Unit]

EMT have placed a sign to that effect at Newark Castle just as you enter on to platform1 at signal box end. Was talk when EMT aka Stagecoach won franchise they would reopen ticket office part time basis but instead have installed a TVM on platform1.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


At 7.29 in morning unless you have a railcard as only open tickets are valid for travelling to London on that & 8.34. It is stated in timetable that only these fares are available on board & guards do get questioned as to why other ticket types have been soldon board.

To be honest you are been extremely picky, my point was why should you miss a connection because you have been unable to buy a ticket. I could have picked other gaps that are off peak. But as you state yourself railcard discounts would be OK on that train so should someone with a YP card be delayed 1 hour because they haven't had the chance to buy a ticket? What if you were travelling from Collingham - Edinburgh, do you think it is acceptable to force people to miss a trian and arrive in Edinburgh at 1230 rather than 1109 because they couldn't buy a ticket?

Likewise at Newark Castle you are travelling to Lincoln and only have a £20 note, which end of the train to you get on to find the gaurd. There is absolutely no way I am going to trust a TVM with a £20 note!

 

[blacknight]

To be honest you are been extremely picky, my point was why should you miss a connection because you have been unable to buy a ticket. I could have picked other gaps that are off peak. But as you state yourself railcard discounts would be OK on that train so should someone with a YP card be delayed 1 hour because they haven't had the chance to buy a ticket? What if you were travelling from Collingham - Edinburgh, do you think it is acceptable to force people to miss a trian and arrive in Edinburgh at 1230 rather than 1109 because they couldn't buy a ticket?

Likewise at Newark Castle you are travelling to Lincoln and only have a £20 note, which end of the train to you get on to find the gaurd. There is absolutely no way I am going to trust a TVM with a £20 note!

I think sir tis you who may also be being a little picky getting up & think urm lets go to Edinburgh or London today only to find advantix not working slim chances of that happening. When manual ticket barrier was in operation staff used to sell ticket on platform but this stopped when automated gates went in.
Could try arguement that no TVM is provided on upside & you would have to queue to get through gates to buy one onboard. Can only play by rules that are set from those upon high.
EMT is a strange example of Intercity meets regional railways as penalty fare system only appears to operate to destinations south & west of Nottingham going off the leaflet they produced to explain it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think sir tis you who may also be being a little picky getting up & think urm lets go to Edinburgh or London today only to find advantix not working slim chances of that happening. When manual ticket barrier was in operation staff used to sell ticket on platform but this stopped when automated gates went in.
Could try arguement that no TVM is provided on upside & you would have to queue to get through gates to buy one onboard. Can only play by rules that are set from those upon high.

No it is not as slim as you would think as many gaurds on this forum would allude to. I have got on at Market Rasen with exactly that situation. My first chance to buy a ticket was at Newark NorthGate, I wasn't going to risk my connection and bought the said off-peak return on board. The gaurd didn't make any issue of it or attempt to contact EMT to verify this. I sat on a seat and the gaurd found me, they did not expect me to search the train looking for them. There is ABSOLUTLY no way I would miss a connection for the sake of queuing for a ticket and if I was charged the full anytime open return as a result then this would certainly be taken up with passenger focus if it got that far as I would have followed the rules as set in the NRCOC.

If a TVM is provided I have not requirement to use it, most TOC will only force you into only buying none discounted tickets if the ticket office is open, the TVM is an additional option. I personally will only use a TVM for fares of around £5 cash or credit cards. But if my only means of paying for a £3 fare is even a £10 note it will be a on the train job. EMT don't object to this at Newark Castle.