First class on the Cambrian route?

[squizzler]

I am a reasonably frequent traveller on the Cambrian line, my usual route is to Tywyn. But for the main service to Aberystwyth, does anybody else feel first class is needed?

Aberystwyth is a major centre of learning and administrative capital of Mid/West Wales. The journey from Birmingham takes a whole three hours and is a lifeline to the communities en route. The train is not fast, but certainly competitive with speeds that motorists might achieve on the single carriageway roads. As the train cannot be made to go so much faster, I argue that one way to reduce West Wales' economic isolation is to offer a premium onboard service to the business community.

The north and south coast routes in Wales have first class available on some services, as does the north-south 'Gerald' route and eventually so will the new CAF units on the Manchester - South Wales service. Surely it is past time that executives or any other potential well-heeled travellers to West Wales should be able to do so in their accustomed comfort?

 

[JonathanH]

Probably not - first class on a short train is not really sensible as the compartment is too small - I doubt it would of itself resolve any economic isolation Aberystwyth faces.

 

[squizzler]

Probably not - first class on a short train is not really sensible as the compartment is too small - I doubt it would of itself resolve any economic isolation Aberystwyth faces.

The consensus on the Civity for Wales thread is that the two car units ordered are likely to prove too short and that three cars should have been ordered for the Aberystwyth route at least. They have designed three car CAF Civities for the Swansea - Manchester route, I would like some the order varied so we get more of these instead of two car units proposed for the Cambrian. The design work for Civity with 1st is already done, the cost of variation would simply be that of more middle cars!

Offering first class would not eliminate the economic disadvantages of Aberystwyth's location by itself, but no one solution ever could. It might however help bring a little more inward investment and a few more wealthier travellers to the area.

 

[Emyr]

First class is used by solicitors to allow travel time to also be working (i.e billable) time. Not sure how common it is for lawyers to travel to or from Aberystwyth, but some visitors to the University may find the more work-compatible environment attractive even if those who work at UoW can't justify the expense.

 

[Bevan Price]

I am a reasonably frequent traveller on the Cambrian line, my usual route is to Tywyn. But for the main service to Aberystwyth, does anybody else feel first class is needed?

Aberystwyth is a major centre of learning and administrative capital of Mid/West Wales. The journey from Birmingham takes a whole three hours and is a lifeline to the communities en route. The train is not fast, but certainly competitive with speeds that motorists might achieve on the single carriageway roads. As the train cannot be made to go so much faster, I argue that one way to reduce West Wales' economic isolation is to offer a premium onboard service to the business community.

The north and south coast routes in Wales have first class available on some services, as does the north-south 'Gerald' route and eventually so will the new CAF units on the Manchester - South Wales service. Surely it is past time that executives or any other potential well-heeled travellers to West Wales should be able to do so in their accustomed comfort?

First Class on both North & South Wales is an absolutely stupid idea with 2 or 3 coach dmus - all it will do is make standard class overcrowding much worse than it is now. And with modern train designs, I suspect that the new trains could well have fewer seats than either 158s or 175s. But I suppose that is what happens when you let politicians meddle with train specifications......- they sit in expenses-paid isolation, oblivious to the real people squashed into inadequate space. Trains should have at least 5 coaches before they even consider provision of 1st Class.

 

[squizzler]

First class is used by solicitors to allow travel time to also be working (i.e billable) time. Not sure how common it is for lawyers to travel to or from Aberystwyth, but some visitors to the University may find the more work-compatible environment attractive even if those who work at UoW can't justify the expense.

I was in the area when the consultation for the new franchise was being done and do not recall if they asked about first class. If it wasn't on the questionnaire I don't suppose any of the existent users would have thought of it. The problem withe the surveys is that they only asked the current rail users about their opinion, not that of people who currently don't but might if they provided facilities not available at present.

First Class on both North & South Wales is an absolutely stupid idea with 2 or 3 coach dmus

I didn't know that there were 2 and 3 coach DMUs on the north and south Welsh routes with 1st: I thought it was to be found on the Avanti and GWR services going east respectively or the loco hauled on north to south. I doubt anyone here disagrees with your sentiment that the trains need to be long enough to meet demand.

 

[krus_aragon]

I didn't know that there were 2 and 3 coach DMUs on the north and south Welsh routes with 1st

I think @Bevan Price was referring to the fact that TfW's current stock (and the stock on order) is a mix of 2- and 3-car units, and that putting First Class on them would be a silly idea.


With regard to the original idea, given that Swansea and Cardiff to Manchester services don't have First Class accomodation (yet), I think it's a bit early in the day to suggest there ought to be provision in the Cambrian direction already. Many would argue that the introduction of a full hourly service to Aberystwyth is of greater appeal to potential travellers. Perhaps in 5-10 years it might be time to reconsider whether there's scope for First Class provision as well...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I had any involvement, I'd have bid for the Cambrian the following:-

5-car hourly clockface Aberystwyth to Brum Intl service, one coach as 1st and a small buffet, so a proper IC service. FLIRTs would be perfect (no fumes in New St) though there are many other options too.

Separate 2-hourly clockface Mach-Pwllheli local service using dedicated 3-car DMUs of some kind (possibly 230s if the things can be made to work) with lots of luggage and cycle space for the holiday passengers.

Same service 7 days a week.

 

[Belperpete]

The Cambrian mainline is worked with two units coupled together, that split at Machynlleth for Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Both sets are the same, which gives flexibility in working. If only one set had first-class, there would then have to be sets dedicated to Aberystwyth workings, and sets dedicated to Pwllheli services, and the possibility that the first-class set might head off to Pwllheli instead of Aberystwyth. If both sets had a first-class section, this would be quite a loss of standard-class capacity. These services are regularly full and standing between New Street and Shrewsbury as it is.

 

[krus_aragon]

If I had any involvement, I'd have bid for the Cambrian the following:-

5-car hourly clockface Aberystwyth to Brum Intl service, one coach as 1st and a small buffet, so a proper IC service. FLIRTs would be perfect (no fumes in New St) though there are many other options too.

Separate 2-hourly clockface Mach-Pwllheli local service using dedicated 3-car DMUs of some kind (possibly 230s if the things can be made to work) with lots of luggage and cycle space for the holiday passengers.

Same service 7 days a week.

That feels a bit ambitious to me, given what the existing service was a year or two ago. Plus, stakeholders along the Cambrian Coast were very voiciferous about keeping their through trains to Shrewsbury & Birmingham. Having a buffet east of Machynlleth probably wouldn't have been enough of a sweetener for them.

 

[Belperpete]

Agreed, most passengers coming down the Coast to Mach are travelling beyond, often with a lot of luggage. On the occasions when it is necessary to change at Mach, it is not popular, particularly if it involves crossing the footbridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Cambrian mainline is worked with two units coupled together, that split at Machynlleth for Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Both sets are the same, which gives flexibility in working. If only one set had first-class, there would then have to be sets dedicated to Aberystwyth workings, and sets dedicated to Pwllheli services, and the possibility that the first-class set might head off to Pwllheli instead of Aberystwyth. If both sets had a first-class section, this would be quite a loss of standard-class capacity. These services are regularly full and standing between New Street and Shrewsbury as it is.

They're going to be even worse in future as a 2-car CAF DMU has less capacity than a Class 158. The lack of growth build is beyond incompetent.

 

[Llanigraham]

If I had any involvement, I'd have bid for the Cambrian the following:-

5-car hourly clockface Aberystwyth to Brum Intl service, one coach as 1st and a small buffet, so a proper IC service. FLIRTs would be perfect (no fumes in New St) though there are many other options too.

Separate 2-hourly clockface Mach-Pwllheli local service using dedicated 3-car DMUs of some kind (possibly 230s if the things can be made to work) with lots of luggage and cycle space for the holiday passengers.

Same service 7 days a week.

And would be a complete waste for most of the day.

The Cambrian mainline is worked with two units coupled together, that split at Machynlleth for Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Both sets are the same, which gives flexibility in working. If only one set had first-class, there would then have to be sets dedicated to Aberystwyth workings, and sets dedicated to Pwllheli services, and the possibility that the first-class set might head off to Pwllheli instead of Aberystwyth. If both sets had a first-class section, this would be quite a loss of standard-class capacity. These services are regularly full and standing between New Street and Shrewsbury as it is.

Quite!!

Myself and plenty of my friends use the Cambrian and I know of none of them who see a need for a First Class service, especially when it will cause huge problems with overcrowding at certain times of the day. The question was not asked during the consultation.

 

[Meerkat]

I would have thought there was a market for business types who want to work, and the richer end of the tourist market - plenty of pricey holiday homes out that way who’s owners/renters might not want to mix with the plebs.
But not going to happen when train lengths are restricting standard capacity

 

[Bletchleyite]

Myself and plenty of my friends use the Cambrian and I know of none of them who see a need for a First Class service, especially when it will cause huge problems with overcrowding at certain times of the day. The question was not asked during the consultation.

Only because the trains are too short. The mind utterly boggles as to why they are replacing 2-car DMUs with, er, 2-car DMUs.

 

[6Gman]

Only because the trains are too short. The mind utterly boggles as to why they are replacing 2-car DMUs with, er, 2-car DMUs.

Because the line already requires a substantial subsidy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because the line already requires a substantial subsidy?

One way to reduce that subsidy is to get a bit more money out of those who will pay more for a more comfortable journey. That's what First Class is for.

 

[Llanigraham]

One way to reduce that subsidy is to get a bit more money out of those who will pay more for a more comfortable journey. That's what First Class is for.

2 car units are adequate for much of the day, and are often extended to 4 car units, which are also adequate when it is busy. The service could be made a lot more comfortable if Wolverhampton, Telford and Wellington passengers did not board at New St during the rush hour.
And as a local that often uses this line I cannot understand why you think it needs any First Class seating capacity.

 

[Mogz]

Wasn’t there a Euston-Aberystwyth through Intercity train in the BR sector years?

Surely there would be demand for peak service like that? TfW take note!

 

[Llanigraham]

Wasn’t there a Euston-Aberystwyth through Intercity train in the BR sector years?

Surely there would be demand for peak service like that? TfW take note!

Yes there was, and according to locals the First Class was rarely used.
I travel up to London roughly every 6 weeks and rarely do I see other passengers making the same journey, and to be honest changing at New St or International isn't difficult. I've also used to (ex)Virgin Shrewsbury - Euston train on a couple and again from what I have seen the number of passengers going the full distance is low.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wasn’t there a Euston-Aberystwyth through Intercity train in the BR sector years?

Surely there would be demand for peak service like that? TfW take note!

Done very much on the margin - half a West Coast set from Wolverhampton , and weekends only. No 1st class , or buffet car. 37 hauled.

In my Aber years of 1976 to 1979 , there was in theory "1st class" on the variegated units that operated There never seemed to be any genuine passengers in there , hardly surprising considering the stock of the time.

 

[squizzler]

Myself and plenty of my friends use the Cambrian and I know of none of them who see a need for a First Class service, especially when it will cause huge problems with overcrowding at certain times of the day. The question was not asked during the consultation.

The latter is worth noting as most people just go of the options presented to them in the questionnaire. At any rate consultations tend to be self selecting as they tend only to reach those using the trains or with an interest in them already. To be successful the railway needs to reach new markets, particularly premium ones.

With regard to the original idea, given that Swansea and Cardiff to Manchester services don't have First Class accomodation (yet), I think it's a bit early in the day to suggest there ought to be provision in the Cambrian direction already. Many would argue that the introduction of a full hourly service to Aberystwyth is of greater appeal to potential travellers. Perhaps in 5-10 years it might be time to reconsider whether there's scope for First Class provision as well...

Swansea and Cardiff (and the major towns on the North Wales coast) already enjoy First class on some services, particularly those heading East. I am only suggesting that the residents of Aberystwyth have a premium option that the other Welsh university city of Bangor already enjoys, levelling the playing field within Wales which is currently tilted against the central hinterlands.

Does anyone know of any British settlement of equivalent academic or administrative rank to Aberystwyth that is so far from a first rate city and with such a bog standard rail connection? Whilst distances in the Highlands are greater, I suggest an equivalent town would benefit from the Seven Cities HSTs (with First Class) and possibly even a sleeper service to London.

Only because the trains are too short. The mind utterly boggles as to why they are replacing 2-car DMUs with, er, 2-car DMUs.

If they decided there was a business case for first class it might be a way of getting the order varied to longer trains without losing face by admitting to getting it wrong by ordering too short formations first time round.

 

[daodao]

In my Aber years of 1976 to 1979 , there was in theory "1st class" on the variegated units that operated There never seemed to be any genuine passengers in there , hardly surprising considering the stock of the time.

The first generation dmus used on the Cambrian coast line in 1974 had 1st class accommodation. I distinctly remember travelling first class (with my dad, at his expense) on a journey from Minffordd to Tywyn and back in August 1974, to avoid the crush in 2nd class. We also benefited from panoramic views from the rear compartment.

 

[jimm]

Wasn’t there a Euston-Aberystwyth through Intercity train in the BR sector years?

Surely there would be demand for peak service like that? TfW take note!

Done very much on the margin - half a West Coast set from Wolverhampton , and weekends only. No 1st class , or buffet car. 37 hauled.

In my Aber years of 1976 to 1979 , there was in theory "1st class" on the variegated units that operated There never seemed to be any genuine passengers in there , hardly surprising considering the stock of the time.

The mid-1980s incarnation of the Cambrian Coast Express ran at least six days a week year-round and I'm pretty sure there was never first class accommodation on the portion that ran to and from Aberystwyth.

The usual formation was five Mk2 TSOs and a BSO or BG taken off/attached to the London service at Shrewsbury - first class coaches and the restaurant-buffet car were left there - with a single Class 37/4 hauling it. Pictures below showing an all-standard class formation but I guess a BFK might have been included on occasion if no other variety of brake coach was available.

It was a separate operation from the assorted summer Saturday trains between the coast and Birmingham and Euston at that time, which were all full-length trains, usually Mk1s including Northampton Cobbler rakes in NSE livery - with pairs of 37s on the front.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24467327@N03/2334106093/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glevumblues/14280707872

https://railphotoprints.uk/p838254863/h4EA0E03A#h4ea0e03a

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/38354570542

https://www.flickr.com/photos/69692273@N03/23385524555/in/photostream/

The latter is worth noting as most people just go of the options presented to them in the questionnaire. At any rate consultations tend to be self selecting as they tend only to reach those using the trains or with an interest in them already. To be successful the railway needs to reach new markets, particularly premium ones.

Swansea and Cardiff (and the major towns on the North Wales coast) already enjoy First class on some services, particularly those heading East. I am only suggesting that the residents of Aberystwyth have a premium option that the other Welsh university city of Bangor already enjoys, levelling the playing field within Wales which is currently tilted against the central hinterlands.

Does anyone know of any British settlement of equivalent academic or administrative rank to Aberystwyth that is so far from a first rate city and with such a bog standard rail connection? Whilst distances in the Highlands are greater, I suggest an equivalent town would benefit from the Seven Cities HSTs (with First Class) and possibly even a sleeper service to London.

If they decided there was a business case for first class it might be a way of getting the order varied to longer trains without losing face by admitting to getting it wrong by ordering too short formations first time round.

Swansea and Cardiff (and the top end of Bristol) have lots of people, lots of businesses, large government departments, etc - the things generally associated with there being sufficient premium travel on expenses to create a business case for the provision of first class coaches. Aberystwyth and the towns in Mid Wales have none of those things.

The presence of a university is neither here nor there - Bangor has first class on some trains because they run to and from Euston as past of a major intercity franchise, not because it is heavily used west of Chester..

Inverness is something like two-and-half-times the size of Aberystwyth, is the key regional centre for a large part of Scotland and a hub for the Highland tourist trade - Aberystwyth is not in remotely the same category - and people in Newtown and Welshpool are rather more likely to look for services, shopping, etc in Shrewsbury and Birmingham than they are in Aberystwyth.

 

[Meerkat]

Plenty of wealthy incomers in West Wales - they might be tempted to use Rail if they didn’t have to sit with the riff raff! Plus the boomer tourists who have all the money apparently.....

 

[krus_aragon]

The presence of a university is neither here nor there - Bangor has first class on some trains because they run to and from Euston as past of a major intercity franchise, not because it is heavily used west of Chester.

Going further back, the reason Bangor has first class services is because it's on the way to the Dublin ferry.

Could there be much of a market for a first class service at Aberystwyth that doesn't run through to London?

 

[daodao]

Going further back, the reason Bangor has first class services is because it's on the way to the Dublin ferry.

Could there be much of a market for a first class service at Aberystwyth that doesn't run through to London?

The only trains that can really justify first class accommodation are inter-city trains to/from London. There is no need for any first-class accommodation on LM/LNW, TPE or TfW services.

 

[Llanigraham]

Plenty of wealthy incomers in West Wales - they might be tempted to use Rail if they didn’t have to sit with the riff raff! Plus the boomer tourists who have all the money apparently.....

Really?
Funny but living in the area I do not see many of these people. What I do see are retiring ex-middle waged people looking to move to a cheaper area, and who aren't at all bothered who they mix with, and not forgetting the aging Hippies of Machynlleth and it's surroundings. (joke!!)

(And Aberystwyth is Mid Wales, not West. That's Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire)

 

[30907]

The only trains that can really justify first class accommodation are inter-city trains to/from London. There is no need for any first-class accommodation on LM/LNW, TPE or TfW services.

TfW (like TPE) think otherwise and intend to introduce it on Manchester-Cardiff-Swansea (their premier route, which ironically spends more than half its time in England) - and of course there is the dining service from Holyhead, at the behest of the Welsh Assembly.

 

[jimm]

Going further back, the reason Bangor has first class services is because it's on the way to the Dublin ferry.

Er yes, but I was thinking more of the modern context where the first class train and ferry passengers of yesteryear are on a flight over the Irish Sea, along with an awful lot of traffic from the cheap seats as well.

TfW (like TPE) think otherwise and intend to introduce it on Manchester-Cardiff-Swansea (their premier route, which ironically spends more than half its time in England) - and of course there is the dining service from Holyhead, at the behest of the Welsh Assembly.

Well there's first class on proper intercity trains and then there's first class on an XC Class 170... and the Holyhead train is also at the expense of Welsh taxpayers, most of whom will never set foot on that service, never mind sit in one of the handful of first class seats.