Yet another call to re-open Woodhead

[HSTEd]

You would be better off just building a new Woodhead Line that uses the Woodhead "axis" but is an entirely new alignment.
Most likely in tunnel with either a service bore or regular (every 1000m) air/escape shafts.

 

[Meerkat]

You would be better off just building a new Woodhead Line that uses the Woodhead "axis" but is an entirely new alignment.
Most likely in tunnel with either a service bore or regular (every 1000m) air/escape shafts.

The Woodhead axis is not relevant to modern needs though, not pointing directly at anywhere on the East end and requiring long and difficult approach lines.
If you are going large it needs to be on the Sheffield - Stockport axis, but even that is really tricky - if it’s a really long base tunnel then where do the East portals go?

 

[HSTEd]

The Woodhead axis is not relevant to modern needs though, not pointing directly at anywhere on the East end and requiring long and difficult approach lines.
If you are going large it needs to be on the Sheffield - Stockport axis, but even that is really tricky - if it’s a really long base tunnel then where do the East portals go?

Well the woodhead axis does have the advantage at the east end that it is on the north side of sheffield, it is a potentially usable Manchester-Leeds route as well as a Manchester-Sheffield route.

The southern route is better at the western end, but mainly, I think, for access to the airport and thus the HS2 alignment into the centre, assuming it is built obviously.

EDIT:

Whilst you will not be able to fill a line with solely Manchester-Leeds traffic, you could probably get close to filling one with all the Manchester-Leeds and MAnchester-Sheffield traffic.

Could be operated by 140-150mph bi-modes.
Probably wouldn't be a traditional "base" tunnel due to the relatively minor peak altitude and gradients, the tunnel is just to reduce public opposition and impacts in the Pennines.

So you could use a single tunnel bore inside the valley wall, with flat/near-flat adits every 1000m for escape purposes. Large sized TBMs that can do the job exist now.

You only need an escape bore for a few kilometres in the middle.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Well the woodhead axis does have the advantage at the east end that it is on the north side of sheffield, it is a potentially usable Manchester-Leeds route as well as a Manchester-Sheffield route.

Im sure if we start thinking about putting Leeds & Manchester services through it, someone will inevitably suggest routing it near to Woodhead Tunnel, then someone will suggest reopening Woodhead tunnel, then we find ourselves back to Square One and another thread on this subject!

So please, please, please can we forget about trying to send Leeds & Manchester traffic through it too, which would probably be better in a new tunnel from just before Sowerby Bridge to Littleborough!

 

[ohgoditsjames]

It’s very tiresome constantly hearing about the Manchester to Leeds route when a Manchester to Sheffield route desperately needs some serious investment.

 

[Killingworth]

Any new route needs to start from the slowest part, the first 5-10 miles out of the city centres. By concentrating on old disused tunnels, and old congested lines through the Pennines we miss where the potential for improved journey times may come.

Expensive tunnelling is the best long term course. On South Pennine roure a best realistic achieveable target for Sheffield -Manchester is 45 minutes. A city centre to city centre tunnel could achieve under 20 minutes for the 32 miles . I have no expectation that this will ever happen but when we look at other expensive proposals we shouldn't overlook the most expensive might be best for the long term. Old lines would remain for freight and shorter distance trains.

For now it would be helpful if the already planned improvements for the Hope Valley were completed. That's already delayed from 2018 to 2023 and not a spade in the ground due until 2022!

 

[HSTEd]

It’s very tiresome constantly hearing about the Manchester to Leeds route when a Manchester to Sheffield route desperately needs some serious investment.

Well are you suggesting cutting travel times between Manchester and Sheffield nearly in half would not be serious investment?

 

[ashkeba]

I can't help feeling the only reason anyone wants Woodhead back is because it had interesting non-standard equipment.

I do not think we should underestimate the dislike of many British motorists for walking and cycling having sole use of any route. From their slow-moving cars on the bendy A road across the lake, they see the freaks on the Trans Pennine Trail which uses parts of old Woodhead route and imagine forcing them into cars on a new motorway along that route. Alternatively, force them into trains, which many motorists think are worse than cars. Anything to stop these tourists having any fun in the countryside without using motors! Anything to stop anyone saying that motor use should be reduced! Great Britain: one country united under smog!

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Well are you suggesting cutting travel times between Manchester and Sheffield nearly in half would not be serious investment?

No I’m not.

What I’m saying is where are the plans for that to happen? Because at present there are non but there are plans to improve the connectivity, speed and capacity between Manchester and Leeds, in fact there are two developments, the TransPennine electrification and then HS3.

Manchester to Sheffield however isn’t getting ANY of that.

Contrary to what the media would like you to believe, Leeds and Manchester aren’t the only parts of the North.

 

[HSTEd]

Transpennine electrification is dead

 

[Meerkat]

No I’m not.

What I’m saying is where are the plans for that to happen? Because at present there are non but there are plans to improve the connectivity, speed and capacity between Manchester and Leeds, in fact there are two developments, the TransPennine electrification and then HS3.

Manchester to Sheffield however isn’t getting ANY of that.

Contrary to what the media would like you to believe, Leeds and Manchester aren’t the only parts of the North.

They aren’t the only parts of the north, but they are between quite a lot of bits of the north.
Manc-Leeds is a section of Liverpool to Hull/Teeside/Newcastle

 

[ohgoditsjames]

They aren’t the only parts of the north, but they are between quite a lot of bits of the north.
Manc-Leeds is a section of Liverpool to Hull/Teeside/Newcastle

Doesn’t change the fact that they’re neglecting a route that connects 2 of the countries largest cities, 2 of the largest neighbouring cities that I’d like to remind you are also 2 of the worst connected by both rail and road.

 

[Meerkat]

Doesn’t change the fact that they’re neglecting a route that connects 2 of the countries largest cities, 2 of the largest neighbouring cities that I’d like to remind you are also 2 of the worst connected by both rail and road.

It’s clearly the lesser of the trans Pennine routes, yet it’s also very hard to do anything about.
Obviously Dore should have been sorted years ago, but it goes through two long difficult tunnels and in between goes through a National Park. What do you suggest they do between what they are doing and some fantasy base tunnel?

 

[ohgoditsjames]

It’s clearly the lesser of the trans Pennine routes, yet it’s also very hard to do anything about.
Obviously Dore should have been sorted years ago, but it goes through two long difficult tunnels and in between goes through a National Park. What do you suggest they do between what they are doing and some fantasy base tunnel?

Build a completely new line. The Hope Valley is inadequate and will never be adequate enough for what’s required now or in the future.

 

[Meerkat]

Build a completely new line. The Hope Valley is inadequate and will never be adequate enough for what’s required now or in the future.

Where? Are you going to overrule the National Park or build an unprecedentedly subsidised base tunnel?

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Where? Are you going to overrule the National Park or build an unprecedentedly subsidised base tunnel?

Bit of both I suppose.

 

[Meerkat]

Neither are realistic. Look how much effort getting one loop took, and the only base tunnels are those under the Alps carrying huge quantities of freight across Europe.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Neither are realistic. Look how much effort getting one loop took, and the only base tunnels are those under the Alps carrying huge quantities of freight across Europe.

What’s the solution then?

 

[Meerkat]

Marginal gains I guess.
Get Dore and loop done, start looking at electrification, longer and faster trains.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Marginal gains I guess.
Get Dore and loop done, start looking at electrification, longer and faster trains.

Electrifying Totley tunnel would be an absolute nightmare

 

[Meerkat]

Electrifying Totley tunnel would be an absolute nightmare

And we are back to square one. Something needs doing, but it’s all not allowed or ridiculously expensive

 

[Killingworth]

Electrifying Totley tunnel would be an absolute nightmare

As would Cowburn and Disley. Line blockades would be likely for months - which the freight operators wouldn't wear! They're not happy about the blockades being suggested at Xmas 2002, Easter 2023 and odd weekends for the limited scheme now in final planning stages.

However bi-modes could happen, as long as Peak Park objections to masts and wires along the Hope Valley section are overcome.

 

[The Planner]

As would Cowburn and Disley. Line blockades would be likely for months - which the freight operators wouldn't wear! They're not happy about the blockades being suggested at Xmas 2002, Easter 2023 and odd weekends for the limited scheme now in final planning stages.

That's because no one has proven they can get diversionary paths yet I suspect, if they can then the blocks will happen.

 

[Killingworth]

That's because no one has proven they can get diversionary paths yet I suspect, if they can then the blocks will happen.

Indeed they will happen, 2022/3. They're a major reason why it won't now be 2021/2, unless Grant Shapps puts his boot in. Part of the issue is that although diversionary paths can be found those routes take longer and put pressure on the limited supply of special wagons. It's the same argument being put forward in support of SELRAP by Drax.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed they will happen, 2022/3. They're a major reason why it won't now be 2021/2, unless Grant Shapps puts his boot in. Part of the issue is that although diversionary paths can be found those routes take longer and put pressure on the limited supply of special wagons. It's the same argument being put forward in support of SELRAP by Drax.

It isn't guaranteed they will, unless NR are watertight on it then the FOCs will just take us to dispute and probably win. SELRAP are being a bit daft about that, if Drax has said "any old path will do" then they should be coughing up to support the scheme but I suspect GBRf may think differently as it will be no quicker.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Pretty sure there’d be some serious clearance issues in Totley tunnel as well and as far as I’m aware NR has stopped accepting rigid bar conductors too.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I do not think we should underestimate the dislike of many British motorists for walking and cycling having sole use of any route. From their slow-moving cars on the bendy A road across the lake, they see the freaks on the Trans Pennine Trail which uses parts of old Woodhead route and imagine forcing them into cars on a new motorway along that route. Alternatively, force them into trains, which many motorists think are worse than cars. Anything to stop these tourists having any fun in the countryside without using motors! Anything to stop anyone saying that motor use should be reduced! Great Britain: one country united under smog!

I'm a motorist and have been for over fifty years. I've known and worked alongside many other motorists, but I've never met one who thinks in the way you describe.

 

[ashkeba]

I'm a motorist and have been for over fifty years. I've known and worked alongside many other motorists, but I've never met one who thinks in the way you describe.

Lucky you. They are around here. They are similar to the people mentioned in discussions like https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...uided-busway-may-need-to-be-ripped-up.114468/ who always suggest railways or busways to be converted into tarmac roads and opened to all motorists. Some of them even get elected to local government where they can do damage.

 

[HSTEd]

Neither are realistic. Look how much effort getting one loop took, and the only base tunnels are those under the Alps carrying huge quantities of freight across Europe.

Including one tunnel that carries so much traffic that it is partially single track! (Lötschberg Base Tunnel)

The problem is the Hope Valley line is so substandard that it can never be salvaged as a viable modern intercity route.
It's alignment simply forbids this from occuring.

It's so poor I don't think there is really any point spending money on it.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Lucky you. They are around here. They are similar to the people mentioned in discussions like https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/‘deteriorating’-cambridgeshire-guided-busway-may-need-to-be-ripped-up.114468/ who always suggest railways or busways to be converted into tarmac roads and opened to all motorists. Some of them even get elected to local government where they can do damage.

The thread you have linked to is about the pros and cons of a guided busway and does not corroborate your assessment of the attitude of motorists.