Yet another call to re-open Woodhead

[Harpers Tate]

According to the Sheffield Star
https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/traf...line-between-manchester-and-sheffield-1354577

Rail campaigners are calling for a long-forgotten train route between Sheffield and Manchester to be brought back - 50 years after the last passenger services on the line ended.........

My own thoughts on the matter are this:

1: Without substantial civil engineering in Sheffield it can't readily serve the present station (Midland) and absent such works would presumably have to serve the former Victoria site. The only current connecting service that could reasonably serve Victoria as well is that to Worksop and beyond; unless services from the South were re-routed via Beighton to reach it instead of Midland. Those connecting elsewhere would need to transfer between stations. It is a little more than a kilometre as the crow flies between the present station and the former Victoria site, which is probably further than it is reasonable to cover with any kind of travelator contraption. And to cover this distance by either that or by a shuttle bus would obviate any time savings from a faster journey for anyone not actually starting or ending in Sheffield itself.

2: Passenger capacity problems on the existing Hope Valley would be most readily solved by simply running trains that are big enough; not necessarily more of them. A 30 minute "fast" frequency is enough - as long as one can board and travel in reasonable comfort.

3: Journey times could be reduced by reworking substantial parts of the track to faster (and heavier) standards. A proportion of the present slowness arises from speed limits that apply to "heavy" trains which includes the 185 fleet used here by TPE. Relay it to true "inter-city" standards and permit higher speeds reduced only where the geometry so requires it.

 

[meepmeep]

I believe the three tunnels are now owned by National Grid and at least one carries national grid cables?

 

[Mugby]

Sounds like it was a slow news day for the Sheffield Star on Saturday!

 

[vidal]

I believe the three tunnels are now owned by National Grid and at least one carries national grid cables?

The new (1954?) bore now has the 400kV supergrid cables and associated cooling running through it. One of the single bores collapsed many years ago and there are still cables in the other single bore.

Reopening Woodhead is a complete non-starter despite it only comparatively recently being closed . The main traffic (coal from Yorkshire to Fiddler's Ferry power station is no longer there, there are no population centres of any size along it's length.

Use it as a cycle path and footpath and just enjoy the scenery rather than getting all worked up into a lather over a project that will never ever see the light of day.

James

 

[Bertie the bus]

A quick internet search shows this campaigner has been bombarding various Yorkshire newspapers with his masterplan to reopen Woodhead for quite some time. Slow news day can be the only explanation as to why The Star has decided to run the story.

 

[Western Lord]

Not only would there be major problems at the Sheffield end, it is unlikely that there would be spare capacity at the Manchester end these days.

 

[tbtc]

a long-forgotten train route between Sheffield and Manchester

Got to laugh at that description - Woodhead is never forgotten - it's always being brought up as a magical solution in need of a problem.

I know that people always want to argue how hard done by their city is and how their neck of the woods "deserves" more money throwing at it, but Woodhead would be hundreds of millions of pounds without actually solving much.

If the aim is better/faster services from Sheffield to Manchester then how are you going to do that when the stopper from Hadfield to Manchester takes about forty minutes to do around a dozen miles ... so how fast is your Woodhead service going to have to get from Sheffield Victoria to Hadfield in to compete with the fifty minute journey time for current trains through the Hope Valley?

If the aim is longer trains/ more seats from Sheffield to Manchester then why not do something about the fact that most services are three/four coaches at the moment? You don't need to spend megabucks to achieve that - just some extra DMU carriages.

If the idea is that electric trains would be better for the environment then can't we just wire up the Hope Valley? The same concerns about planning applications for "ugly" electrification would apply whether you plan stringing up wires through Edale or Longenden.

And that's without getting into the whole issue of re-opening Sheffield Victoria (in the far corner of the city centre, a long way from the main retail area/ Universities/ tram lines, terrible for parking, on top of a viaduct, relatively poor for bus interchange)

You could have transformative benefits by sorting out Dore station, consider four tracking through Heeley, build some kind of overtaking facilities between the two cities... and stop obsessing about a line that wasn't worth keeping even when we still had lots of long slow freight in the 1980s - but there will always be unimaginative people with unimaginative answers to every single problem, so I expect Woodhead to crop up every few months along with the line through Bakewell and the wacky zany SELRAP proposals.

That's not to blame the Star, they are a local paper so a lot of their market is elderly nostalgists who will lap up the idea of "simple answers to complicated problems" - they have to feed that nostalgia with periodic "calls to re-open Woodhead" articles - it's par for the course

 

[Journeyman]

Is there going to be a new build of Class 76s to go with it?

I can't help feeling the only reason anyone wants Woodhead back is because it had interesting non-standard equipment. If it ever reopened, it wouldn't have that novelty, and would be operated by completely standard trains over completely standard modern infrastructure - which is often spectacularly ugly. It would have none of the features that made enthusiasts love it so much in the first place.

Complete non-starter anyway, for reasons stated.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Got to laugh at that description - Woodhead is never forgotten - it's always being brought up as a magical solution in need of a problem.

If the aim is better/faster services from Sheffield to Manchester then how are you going to do that when the stopper from Hadfield to Manchester takes about forty minutes to do around a dozen miles ... so how fast is your Woodhead service going to have to get from Sheffield Victoria to Hadfield in to compete with the fifty minute journey time for current trains through the Hope Valley?

To be scrupulously fair, the Hadfield stoppers do deviate via Glossop - the fastest running time I can find in the 1959/60 timetable for Manchester (LR) to Sheffied (V) via Woodhead is 54 minutes calling at Guide Bridge, Dinting, Dunford Bridge and Penistone, so non-stop running would easily beat the current Hope Valley timings. Of the few expresses from London Road that did call at Hadfield, 20 mins was the typical running time.

The biggest threat to Hope Valley rail services is the proposed Woodhead 'base' road tunnel, which seems to be back on the agenda after the General Election. I would like to see a combined road / rail tunnel but there seems to be a worrying trend away from rail investment to roads again.

 

[The Planner]

It isnt the Grand Northern lot again is it? Their webpage is superb along with their Brexit themed Facebook page, good for a laugh.

 

[eastwestdivide]

To (partially) quote the Sheffield Star article, the person calling for the reopening is:

Andrew Oldfield, secretary for the Huddersfield, Penistone and Sheffield Rail Users' Association, said: “In 1954 the Woodhead line was the pinnacle for the city in terms of rail and in the 50 years since it was closed we have gone backwards or stood still while others have got the investment.

“It should never have gone in the first place but we need to go back to the future. When the Woodhead closed a truly modern rail corridor was just abandoned.

 

[a_c_skinner]

One of the single bores collapsed many years ago and there are still cables in the other single bore.

I've not seen that reported before, even when the cables were relocated. When was it?
I've no doubt that at present there isn't a case for Woodhead, but I do think it was a mistake to repurpose the new tunnel.

 

[vidal]

I've not seen that reported before, even when the cables were relocated. When was it?
I've no doubt that at present there isn't a case for Woodhead, but I do think it was a mistake to repurpose the new tunnel.

http://resources.peakdistrict.gov.uk/ctte/planning/reports/2007/070713Item6-8.pdf

NG owns the three disused railway tunnels, which are the north tunnel, south tunnel, and the newer 1953 tunnel. The south tunnel is in the worst condition, after suffering some collapses since it was built, and as such, is no longer suitable for cabling or transport use in its current condition.

James

 

[NoMorePacers]

If the aim is better/faster services from Sheffield to Manchester then how are you going to do that when the stopper from Hadfield to Manchester takes about forty minutes to do around a dozen miles ... so how fast is your Woodhead service going to have to get from Sheffield Victoria to Hadfield in to compete with the fifty minute journey time for current trains through the Hope Valley?

Although most of your post is sensible, I can't help but feel a train going non-stop from Piccadilly to Hadfield would take a reasonably lower amount of time than the all-stations stopper, which spends about 15 minutes on the Glossop branch anyways (which I doubt a train all of the way to Sheffield would be made to do).

 

[tbtc]

To be scrupulously fair, the Hadfield stoppers do deviate via Glossop - the fastest running time I can find in the 1959/60 timetable for Manchester (LR) to Sheffied (V) via Woodhead is 54 minutes calling at Guide Bridge, Dinting, Dunford Bridge and Penistone, so non-stop running would easily beat the current Hope Valley timings. Of the few expresses from London Road that did call at Hadfield, 20 mins was the typical running time

Although most of your post is sensible, I can't help but feel a train going non-stop from Piccadilly to Hadfield would take a reasonably lower amount of time than the all-stations stopper, which spends about 15 minutes on the Glossop branch anyways (which I doubt a train all of the way to Sheffield would be made to do).

Okay, in the interests of fairness, Piccadilly - Dinting is about half an hour (seems to be longer westbound, but presumably that's insurance to ensure it gets through the throat and into the low numbered Piccadilly platform on time), which is still pretty slow for twelve miles - so even if you spend hundreds of millions of pounds getting from a newly rebuilt Sheffield Victoria.. through relatively empty countryside... through a new expensive tunnel ... you're then going to hit the tediously slow Manchester commuter corridors (not just the Glossop stopper; the Marple DMUs take a dozen minutes to cover the five miles as far as Guide Bridge).

I appreciate that (if you have the money to re-open the route and find spare paths at the Piccadilly throat etc) you can try to time your westbound services to get through Dinting just before the Glossop - Manchester service but I know how badly the "try to path the Hope Valley stopper so that it only leaves Sheffield once the TPE service has already departed and hope that it gets to Chinley before the EMR service catches up with you" approach works.

And this is assuming that Andy Burnham never gets his wish to convert the Glossop line to a high frequency tram-train operation etc.

 

[Journeyman]

Also, much of the route out from Piccadilly has been reduced from quadruple to double track, and I'm sure the Hadfield/Glossop services are much more frequent than they used to be.

 

[6Gman]

Got to laugh at that description - Woodhead is never forgotten - it's always being brought up as a magical solution in need of a problem.

You beat me to it !

I also note that sending Manchester - Sheffield fast trains via Hadfield would remove the (well-used) Stockport stops.

For a fraction of the cost of Woodhead you could improve the Hope Valley and provide trains of decent length.

 

[ABB125]

I personally don't think reopening the Woodhead line is the solution (to what problem?). Instead the Hope Valley line could and should be upgraded (although to what extent I will leave to people more familiar with the line).
My preferred long term option is a combined road/rail tunnel, with the rail bit forming the Manchester-Sheffield(-Nottingham?) section of Northern Powerhouse Rail.

 

[Journeyman]

How long before someone seriously suggests Class 442s as suitable stock for a reopened Woodhead?

 

[Doomotron]

How long before someone seriously suggests Class 442s as suitable stock for a reopened Woodhead?

If you modified them to work with Class 92s (which have exceptional acceleration), the Woodhead Line would have very fast and very comfortable services, which may be a winner with the public.

 

[Journeyman]

If you modified them to work with Class 92s (which have exceptional acceleration), the Woodhead Line would have very fast and very comfortable services, which may be a winner with the public.

I was not making a serious suggestion.

Woodhead is a dead duck, with or without 442s, HSTs or [insert favourite redundant class here].

 

[NoMorePacers]

I was not making a serious suggestion.

Woodhead is a dead duck, with or without 442s, HSTs or [insert favourite redundant class here].

Class 319s?

 

[Journeyman]

Class 319s?

I'm sure there's a few Pacers knocking about somewhere...

*ducks*

 

[Senex]

If you modified them to work with Class 92s (which have exceptional acceleration), the Woodhead Line would have very fast and very comfortable services, which may be a winner with the public.

I don't think it could ever have been made very fast. Did you ever travel over it and note the curvature? Scenically it was a splendid route, but quick it was not. As 6Gman suggests, far better now to spend a fraction of the cost on upgrading the Midland route to improve the present dire speeds between Manchester and Sheffield. (Why is it that there's so much public interest in the slowness of services between Manchester and Leeds, but the slowness of the Sheffield service generally gets very little comment (save in forums like this one)?

 

[Doomotron]

I don't think it could ever have been made very fast. Did you ever travel over it and note the curvature? Scenically it was a splendid route, but quick it was not. As 6Gman suggests, far better now to spend a fraction of the cost on upgrading the Midland route to improve the present dire speeds between Manchester and Sheffield. (Why is it that there's so much public interest in the slowness of services between Manchester and Leeds, but the slowness of the Sheffield service generally gets very little comment (save in forums like this one)?

In my not very serious post, I was thinking of acceleration primarily.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Why would you need new trains to work it, when you could just use the strategic steam reserve in the tunnels?

 

[Journeyman]

Why would you need new trains to work it, when you could just use the strategic steam reserve in the tunnels?

Sshh! Don't talk about the S*******c R*****e! The government will send hit men after you!

Where's my tinfoil hat?

 

[Killingworth]

The nostalgic calls for reopening old lines divert attention from getting on with other improvements that will give better cost/benefits and can be ready, never quickly, but quicker and better. Harpers Tate has it about right.

The original Victorian tunnels were too narrow for old steam trains and were no longer good enough for even the electricity cables and have to be totally discounted. The new double tunnel was built to 1940s DC electrification standards, good at the time but not for the desired fast modern AC electrics. Freight services ceased almost 40 years ago. Reboring the existing tunnels would almost certainly cost more than totally new bores on a new alignment. The cables would have to be relocated somewhere too. It's not pleasing the restorationists that a further section of overhead infrastruture is about to be buried below the old surface route.

However the tunnel/s aren't even the biggest issue. Getting through the suburbs into both Sheffield and Manchester would reduce any speed benefits considerably. The bits between the tunnel and the cities aren't straight and level either. Neither Woodhead nor Hope Valley routes are direct between the cities. Hope Valley is over 42 miles. Woodhead is only a mile or two less, but a well disciplined crow could fly it straight in about 32 miles.

It isn't going to happen, but boring a straight and almost level tunnel from beneath Sheffield Midland station to below Piccadilly would avoid conflicts with other tracks and buildings in the suburbs, avoid visual objections through the Peak District (apart from the construction phase), provide an enclosed weatherproof environment free from conflicts with trees, suicides, landslip and floods. Being almost straight and level a journey time of under 25 minutes is totally achievable - half the best today.

Could it be done? Of course it could. The Swiss, Norwegians, Japanese and Chinese would happily do it. Finance and political priorities are what won't allow it to happen - any more than similar links from Manchester to Leeds and Leeds to Sheffield to complete a Pennine fast triangle. It would revolutionise the north and create a true Northern Powerhouse.

I've used it as an example in another thread. From Oslo Airport into the centre of Oslo is about 29 miles. Trains run every 10 minutes and average journey time is 20 minutes. Oslo city centre is rapidly going car less. The railway runs beneath the city and cuts through hills along the way.

We are so far behind after being so far ahead. It saddens me when I hear effort having to be expended on feasibilty studies into reopening long abandoned routes. To that extent I'd prefer concentation on longer and more reliable Hope Valley trains rather than more and faster. As it is the forthcoming improvements don't go far enough, as we'll find when they're finally completed.

15/16..... I'll stop there. Think what the Brunel and Stephenson generations would have done if they'd had our technology. Get tunnelling!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Somebody just send HS2 up to Manchester through Sheffield so that these 'calls' finally end!

 

[pappleby]

why not install 'HyperLoop' t'ween the two cities, ( only jokingly)