BBC article regarding the use of Welsh language by TfW

[Tomos y Tanc]

Any language that is spoken and used in day to day use and by more than a handful of people should absolutely be supported.

Here in North Wales where i live there are entire communities that mostly converse only in Welsh and are made up of almost entirely This must continue through the generations to make sure languages survive. Also they should be able to speak, read and listen in their native language at any Welsh institution, business or public body.

Just because people can speak English doesn't mean they should have to when in their own country.

Clywch clywch! Even here, in my part of Cardiff, it's a very rare day where you don't hear Welsh being spoken. I'm in Canton and I'm sure that's less true in some other parts of the city but it's a vibrant, living language.

 

[Chris M]

The onboard CIS is a bit odd however. Some places are listed bilingually; others aren't. It was explained to me that locations where trains terminate are bilingual, but intermediate points (in England at least) are not. As I say, odd.

Not everywhere in England has a Welsh name. Generally its only very large settlements and those near the border that do, e.g. Bristol (Bryste), Chester (Caer) and London (Llundain) do, but places like Reading and Wolverhampton don't.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It seems unnecessarily obstructive and an extra risk to present Welsh first in areas where the majority of customers will be looking for the English.

But the Welsh in Wales will be looking for Welsh.. surely In their own country this the least they can expect. Should Welsh people stop talking Welsh as too many English have moved to Wales and it would be "easier" maybe just ban Welsh altogether

 

[Meerkat]

But the Welsh in Wales will be looking for Welsh.. surely In their own country this the least they can expect. Should Welsh people stop talking Welsh as too many English have moved to Wales and it would be "easier" maybe just ban Welsh altogether

The Welsh in Wales will be looking for Welsh?? Really? What percentage of Welsh people have Welsh as their first language?
Ps “too many English have moved to Wales” has a nasty undercurrent of discrimination.

 

[lachlan]

But the Welsh in Wales will be looking for Welsh.. surely In their own country this the least they can expect. Should Welsh people stop talking Welsh as too many English have moved to Wales and it would be "easier" maybe just ban Welsh altogether

Perhaps in places where the majority of people don't speak Welsh it's more accesible for everyone if just English is used. Such as names on the front of buses or railway station departure boards where you need to quickly glance at the information. It's bad enough having departure boards swapping between information and BTP reminders as it is.

I'm not suggesting that Welsh people can't or shouldn't speak Welsh, but in some places providing Welsh translations would have little gain for a lot of inconvenience.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The Welsh in Wales will be looking for Welsh?? Really? What percentage of Welsh people have Welsh as their first language?
Ps “too many English have moved to Wales” has a nasty undercurrent of discrimination.

But stopping Welsh in Wales isn't discrimination?

If people don't stick up for languages they die.....

 

[6Gman]

It seems unnecessarily obstructive and an extra risk to present Welsh first in areas where the majority of customers will be looking for the English.

Why?

.

 

[Meerkat]

But stopping Welsh in Wales isn't discrimination?

If people don't stick up for languages they die.....

Did I say “stopping Welsh”? Put the predominant language for that area first.

 

[Meerkat]

Why?

.

Why are any signs made clear for users?
Having large crowds of predominantly English speakers delayed from reading service information (and safety information) is not good for keeping crowds moving and safe. It’s putting politics before convenience and safety.

 

[6Gman]

Not everywhere in England has a Welsh name. Generally its only very large settlements and those near the border that do, e.g. Bristol (Bryste), Chester (Caer) and London (Llundain) do, but places like Reading and Wolverhampton don't.

But why show Crewe/Cryw (which is a bit of a fabrication anyway) but not Ludlow/Llwydlo (which definitely isn't) ?

 

[6Gman]

Why are any signs made clear for users?
Having large crowds of predominantly English speakers delayed from reading service information (and safety information) is not good for keeping crowds moving and safe. It’s putting politics before convenience and safety.

But is there any evidence that bilingual signs are a hazard to safety?

(Been hearing this about bilingual roadsigns for decades, but still waiting for any evidence.)

 

[Meerkat]

But is there any evidence that bilingual signs are a hazard to safety?

(Been hearing this about bilingual roadsigns for decades, but still waiting for any evidence.)

clearer signs are safer signs. Not language related but wasn’t one of the findings re the poor girl who died leaning out of an HST that the warning signs were cluttered and not obvious enough?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If people driving cars at 70 mph can read bilingual signs I'm sure passengers walking through a station at 2mph can. People, creating drama because it's easier for them personally.

I don't ask for anything in England to be in Welsh.

If English is on a sign , that should be good enough. Wherever it location.

 

[transmanche]

The website and TVMs should be fully functioning in both languages, but it is standard practice to default to one language and have others as options.

Why should the website & ticket machines automatically set Welsh as the priority over English

The simple answer is that you don't need to prioritise one language over the other on the website. You just access the different languages via different URLs.

So it's tfwrail.wales if you want English and trctrenau.cymru if you want Welsh. With a simple toggle switch in the top-right corner if you want/need to switch language.

 

[Meerkat]

If people driving cars at 70 mph can read bilingual signs I'm sure passengers walking through a station at 2mph can. People, creating drama because it's easier for them personally.

I don't ask for anything in England to be in Welsh.

If English is on a sign , that should be good enough. Wherever it location.

that assumes people driving at 70 are getting the info they need without risky distraction.
Very few people living in England have Welsh as their second language let alone their first so your point is pretty invalid.
You seem unwilling to accept that English is the first language of most Welsh people (in fact only 30% claim to speak Welsh)

personally I think the best way is to have Welsh in green - very clear that way on signs.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Did I say “stopping Welsh”? Put the predominant language for that area first.

Yes, but Welsh was the predominant language in Wales until the late 19th century. It was the policy and actions of the UK government that changed that by denying Welsh any official legal status, even going so far as beating children who spoke it in the school yard and denying monoglot Welsh speakers the right to give evidence in court.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if the peope elected by Welsh voters want to use their powers to gently correct an historic injustice, that's just democracy. We elect our government and all the parties in our Parliament support the policy.

There would be little support for a 'predominant language' party as we have reached a consensus on this in Wales. If you think differently, the elections are next year.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Clywch clywch! Even here, in my part of Cardiff, it's a very rare day where you don't hear Welsh being spoken. I'm in Canton and I'm sure that's less true in some other parts of the city but it's a vibrant, living language.

After over 20 years of living in Merthyr Tydfil/Tudful I can say it's a very, very rare day when I DO hear Welsh being spoken here.

 

[6Gman]

Did I say “stopping Welsh”? Put the predominant language for that area first.

It sounds a good idea, but you then get the problem of the order changing mid-journey.

 

[transmanche]

But why show Crewe/Cryw (which is a bit of a fabrication anyway) but not Ludlow/Llwydlo (which definitely isn't) ?

Cryw is a simple transliteration of the English name. In much the same way that Aberdovey and Ruabon are simple transliterations of the Welsh names Aberdyfi and Rhiwabon.

 

[transmanche]

Put the predominant language for that area first.

clearer signs are safer signs.

And signs are clearer if the language order is consistent.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

It sounds a good idea, but you then get the problem of the order changing mid-journey.

Absolutely, if people get used to seeing Welsh first and they are English they will get used to looking below the Welsh. It becomes habit and no issue at all.

 

[Meerkat]

Yes, but Welsh was the predominant language in Wales until the late 19th century. It was the policy and actions of the UK governement that changed that by denying Welsh any official legal status, even going so far as beating children who spoke it in the school yard and denying monoglot Welsh speakers the right to give evidence in court.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and if the peope elected by Welsh voters want to use their powers to gently correct an historic injustice, that's just democracy. We elect our government and all the parties in our Parliament support the policy.

There is no support for a 'predominant language' party. If you think there is, set one up and see how it does. The elections are next year.

Your last bit sounds like rather like the “no support for a Brexit party so the voters don’t want Brexit” we used to get. The voters don’t get a choice if none of the parties offer it. Has there ever been any research into the language desires of the Welsh population? The Welsh people I have known pretty quickly lost interest in the Welsh they learnt at school.
I have sympathy for your first paragraph, but that is water under the bridge now. Forcing Welsh onto Welsh people seems like a political move by the nationalists to make the Welsh feel more separate from the English, backed by an implied accusation of disloyalty if you disagree.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The Welsh feel more seperate from the English. ? We are a seperate country. With our own language
We are not meant to be joined at the hip

 

[Chew Chew]

You get the feeling that some folk on this thread are the kind of folk that complain there are too many Spaniards at Spanish holiday resorts and Spanish shouldn't be spoken in Spanish hotels and Spanish food shouldn't be served either.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

You get the feeling that some folk on this thread are the kind of folk that complain there are too many Spaniards at Spanish holiday resorts and Spanish shouldn't be spoken in Spanish hotels and Spanish food shouldn't be served either.

Exactly this......

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Your last bit sounds like rather like the “no support for a Brexit party so the voters don’t want Brexit” we used to get. The voters don’t get a choice if none of the parties offer it. Has there ever been any research into the language desires of the Welsh population? The Welsh people I have known pretty quickly lost interest in the Welsh they learnt at school.
I have sympathy for your first paragraph, but that is water under the bridge now. Forcing Welsh onto Welsh people seems like a political move by the nationalists to make the Welsh feel more separate from the English, backed by an implied accusation of disloyalty if you disagree.

Both Ukip and Brexit party AMs support the current policy. As I said, we are a democracy. Anyone can stand. If you think differently do something about it.

 

[Searle]

You get the feeling that some folk on this thread are the kind of folk that complain there are too many Spaniards at Spanish holiday resorts and Spanish shouldn't be spoken in Spanish hotels and Spanish food shouldn't be served either.

I mean it's a completely different concept but keep on telling yourself that if you want

 

[Kilopylae]

As an English speaker who knows no Welsh beyond the word 'Cymru', on my travels through Wales (including complex interchanges, dealing with disruption that left me stranded for eight hours, etc.), I have never found the presentation of Welsh first an issue. The idea that it's "unsafe" or even that it makes life more difficult is utterly ridiculous. Friends of mine in Ireland have often complained that the strange typeface used for Irish on road signs in the ROI seems patronizing/delegitimizing and my instinct is to say that putting Welsh in green would have much the same issue.

A side note - according to some of the Welshmen I have spoken to about the railways, it seems that the English-language announcements often pronounce Welsh places wrong, before the Welsh-language announcer proceeds to pronounce it correctly! Machynlleth, for example, should be something like "mach-HUNTH-leth" with the ch like in Bach, but the English announcement says something more like "MAR-cum-flarth". It seems to me that for bilingual Welsh-English speakers half paying attention who are expecting something at least resembling the actual name of where they're trying to go, removing the Welsh would actually make matters more confusing.

 

[CambrianCoast]

Your last bit sounds like rather like the “no support for a Brexit party so the voters don’t want Brexit” we used to get. The voters don’t get a choice if none of the parties offer it. Has there ever been any research into the language desires of the Welsh population? The Welsh people I have known pretty quickly lost interest in the Welsh they learnt at school.
I have sympathy for your first paragraph, but that is water under the bridge now. Forcing Welsh onto Welsh people seems like a political move by the nationalists to make the Welsh feel more separate from the English, backed by an implied accusation of disloyalty if you disagree.

The Welsh language is not being forced upon anyone. The only thing being seemingly forced here is your ignorance. Wales is a bilingual country with its own language and culture so deal with it. I’m a first language Welsh speaker with an English father and a Welsh mother. Bilingualism has been an enriching, normal part of my life for as long as I can remember, just as it is in the vast majority of other nations and cultures around the world. I’ve visited many countries across the world and used their transport systems and their language did not impede my journey one bit. I think your issue here is purely based on xenophobia and the old chestnut that we only speak Welsh when there are English people in the room. Why on earth would we have to be asked about our “language desires”, that frankly is completely ridiculous. Do the French hold surveys to see if their nation fancy a “change of language”. I don’t think so!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I mean it's a completely different concept but keep on telling yourself that if you want

Is it though? I don't hear the English that reside in Gibraltar complaining about Spanish signs when they cross the border into Spain.

What exactly is the difference?