• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

BBC article regarding the use of Welsh language by TfW

Status
Not open for further replies.

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,060
Location
London E14
Bilingual signs should IMO either contain two colours or two type faces (regular and italic etc) as a monolingual life long resident of Wales there are some truly appalling bilingual documents/signs out there that are difficult to read. Many of which come from government sponsored bodies.
As an actual partially sighted person myself a font in a lighter colour with less contrast would be harder for me to read. However these signs in Cardiff Central are big and it's easy to get up close. That doesn't excuse making the English fainter.

Please just use the same font and size for both English and Welsh. Making text fainter makes it harder to read.
Especially for signage that needs to be parsed quickly, there needs to be a clear distinction where one language ends and the other starts so that a monoglot speaker of (or even just someone more comfortable with) the language presented second can easily see where the information directed at them begins. I recall a temporary variable message sign on the M4 a few years ago where the first half was in Welsh and the second in English, but because the last words of the Welsh version and first words of the English version both completely filled the line it just looked like one solid wall of text until one read the start of every line (and I speak as someone who has a (very rusty) basic knowledge of Welsh, so the language is not completely unfamiliar to me).
Fonts can be used for this, but only if the two are both easily distinguished and equally legible in the given environment. Colour is possible, but rarely the best choice as one is usually going to have a lower contrast against the background (unless one language uses e.g. black-on-white and the other white-on-black). The Cardiff Central signs above look to be an example of the poor use of colour for this reason.
In many cases though the best solution is a simple one - blank space or a short horizontal line between the different languages.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,126
Here is more signage from Cardiff Central showing that English has been ‘downgraded':>
SIGNAGE ON ROOF OF SUBWAY AT CARDIFF CENTRAL.JPG
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,510
Location
Llandudno
Yeah this thread is about Welsh or other languages on tickets. We are all heading a bit off topic now.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
3,126
We are heading off topic because the original newsfeed from BBC Wales is not just about tickets.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,646
Location
South Wales
I don't know why TfW RS persist with this thin light grey lettering for English. Bold black for Welsh and bold red for English would be fine.
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
4,507
Wales and Borders introduced bilingual announcements at some Welsh stations in 2003, before that it was English only with Phil Sayer I believe. The electronic departure boards still show just English though.

The smaller stations with the text to speak system have only ever used English, though when I passed Skewen last week, I saw the CIS was actually in Welsh so I suspect things are being updated as we speak.

There is no Welsh audio on board, though both the TrainFX and the 175 PIS do show some stations in Welsh. It sounds as if these will be updated with Welsh announcements too.
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,171
Especially for signage that needs to be parsed quickly, there needs to be a clear distinction where one language ends and the other starts so that a monoglot speaker of (or even just someone more comfortable with) the language presented second can easily see where the information directed at them begins. I recall a temporary variable message sign on the M4 a few years ago where the first half was in Welsh and the second in English, but because the last words of the Welsh version and first words of the English version both completely filled the line it just looked like one solid wall of text until one read the start of every line (and I speak as someone who has a (very rusty) basic knowledge of Welsh, so the language is not completely unfamiliar to me).
Fonts can be used for this, but only if the two are both easily distinguished and equally legible in the given environment. Colour is possible, but rarely the best choice as one is usually going to have a lower contrast against the background (unless one language uses e.g. black-on-white and the other white-on-black). The Cardiff Central signs above look to be an example of the poor use of colour for this reason.
In many cases though the best solution is a simple one - blank space or a short horizontal line between the different languages.
Agree with your final line - I think a simple line or inverting the background like you described would make both languages "treated equally". Perhaps some folks prefer light on dark or dark on light, but I imagine there's folks in both camps so would be impossible to please both.

I certainly hope TfW finds Welsh translations, rather than just removing some information which was previously English only.
 

Sprinter153

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
438
Location
In the TGS
When I was GWR traincrew I provided bilingual announcements (welcome aboard, calling points, security announcements, the name of named trains etc) between Newport and Swansea, but I believe I was the only one who could speak fluent Welsh (to the confusion of Swansea and Cardiff crew as I was based at Paddington!).
 

Tazi Hupefi

On Moderation
Joined
1 Apr 2018
Messages
1,838
Location
Nottinghamshire
I can't see how Cross Country, Avanti and Great Western aren't similarly obliged to comply with these requirements/laws, at least for services originating/terminating or traversing through Wales.

I suspect the answer is that they are, and it's been such a niche issue with a relatively toothless government agency to enforce that they've simply not bothered.

TfW seem to be saying that because they've complied with the Welsh Language requirements in the franchise agreement that they aren't liable to do more. My view is that the law requires them to go further, and nothing in the franchise agreement prevents them, or excuses them, from complying with any other more onerous requirements.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,510
Location
Llandudno
I can't see how Cross Country, Avanti and Great Western aren't similarly obliged to comply with these requirements/laws, at least for services originating/terminating or traversing through Wales.

I suspect the answer is that they are, and it's been such a niche issue with a relatively toothless government agency to enforce that they've simply not bothered.

TfW seem to be saying that because they've complied with the Welsh Language requirements in the franchise agreement that they aren't liable to do more. My view is that the law requires them to go further, and nothing in the franchise agreement prevents them, or excuses them, from complying with any other more onerous requirements.

I would hazard a guess that as TfW is a registered company in Wales Welsh law applies. Avanti , cross country and GWR are not so are governed by English law. Similar to say Saudi Airlines not selling alcohol as it is prohibited in the country it is registered no matter where they may fly.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,510
Location
Llandudno
The next thing will be Cornish, an equally old language - anyone out there up to supporting that?

Any language that is spoken and used in day to day use and by more than a handful of people should absolutely be supported.

Here in North Wales where i live there are entire communities that mostly converse only in Welsh and are made up of almost entirely This must continue through the generations to make sure languages survive. Also they should be able to speak, read and listen in their native language at any Welsh institution, business or public body.

Just because people can speak English doesn't mean they should have to when in their own country.
 

Phil from Mon

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2014
Messages
406
Location
Beaumaris, Ynys Môn
Any language that is spoken and used in day to day use and by more than a handful of people should absolutely be supported.

Here in North Wales where i live there are entire communities that mostly converse only in Welsh and are made up of almost entirely This must continue through the generations to make sure languages survive. Also they should be able to speak, read and listen in their native language at any Welsh institution, business or public body.

Just because people can speak English doesn't mean they should have to when in their own country.
Where is the “like” button when you need it?
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,060
Location
London E14
Any language that is spoken and used in day to day use and by more than a handful of people should absolutely be supported.

Here in North Wales where i live there are entire communities that mostly converse only in Welsh and are made up of almost entirely This must continue through the generations to make sure languages survive. Also they should be able to speak, read and listen in their native language at any Welsh institution, business or public body.

Just because people can speak English doesn't mean they should have to when in their own country.

Where is the “like” button when you need it?
I also agree with this. Obviously there has to be an element of common sense - signage cannot be in every language simultaneously but certainly 2-3 is reasonable in most circumstances, and support for others where practical (e.g. ticket machines) should be strongly encouraged.
 

urbophile

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2015
Messages
2,473
Location
Liverpool
As far as station names are concerned, why do they need to be bilingual? Just use the local language: that is, in predominantly Welsh-speaking areas, use Welsh; in English speaking ones, English. Most place names are the same in both languages anyway. I don't expect a ticket for Roma or Wien to say Rome or Vienna; why should I expect one to Caergybi to say Holyhead?
 

MDB1images

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2018
Messages
682
Thanks Y Ddraig Coch, did wonder if the language was widely being taught/spoke these days.
When I worked trains in North Wales the amount of Welsh crew who could speak Welsh was minimal, never came across any pure Welsh speaking passengers so English was always used without any issues.
Sure adds to the cost in signage but presume it's all factored in to the franchise in anyhow.

Presume operationally English is the language used to avoid any issues(same as the aviation industry)

Do local buses announce all stops in Welsh and English as could imagine the noise from each bus stops being auto announced is annoying for the local commuting home!
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,060
Location
London E14
What about stations that serve both language communities, e.g. Abertawe/Swansea?
What about passengers who have bought a ticket from London to Bridgend who find themselves in Swansea because the train only called at Pen-y-Bont?
 

Tomos y Tanc

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2019
Messages
916
Language law in Wales is actually pretty practical and flexible. I'm not aware, for instance, of any public body being penalised for failing to reach the required standard level of services. They are merely expected to achieve those standards in future.

TfW have obviously had some problems with inherited equipment and with providing a Welsh interface on industry-wide software. Hopefully those issues will be resolved soon.

Just for clarity, public bodies in Wales are obliged to reply to correspondence in the language it's been received. It's only unsolicited and initial correspondence that's required to be bilingual.
 

Paul Dancey

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2018
Messages
31
When I was GWR traincrew I provided bilingual announcements (welcome aboard, calling points, security announcements, the name of named trains etc) between Newport and Swansea, but I believe I was the only one who could speak fluent Welsh (to the confusion of Swansea and Cardiff crew as I was based at Paddington!).

Many years ago, on one HST journey from Cardiff to London I was pleasantly surprised by a bilingual announcement as we approached Paddington. Perhaps that was you.
 

Tomos y Tanc

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2019
Messages
916
Do local buses announce all stops in Welsh and English as could imagine the noise from each bus stops being auto announced is annoying for the local commuting home!

I can't speak for other parts of Wales but in Cardiff the announcements are bilingual for stops that have either Welsh or different Welsh and English names and in English only for places with English names.

So it's either "yr arosfan nesaf yw Ysbyty Dewi Sant / The next stop is St David's Hospital" or "the next stop is Neville street". It aligns with the city council's policy of not translating existing street names while ensuring all new streets have Welsh only names until the balance is 50:50 across the city.
 

mrmartin

Established Member
Joined
17 Dec 2012
Messages
1,281
I believe at least iOS has full Welsh support, so the app could just detect that and show the app in welsh without user input. I'd actually be really surprised if they didn't currently do that; as it's beyond trivial to add Welsh support that way. I wonder how many people set their phone to Welsh in wales?

This also applies to web browsers, the accept-language header will contain Welsh first if the OS is set to that language. You don't have to select a language nor do a location lookup.
 

TrafficEng

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2019
Messages
419
Location
North of London
Depends on the person and how affected they are. We do have some partially sighted people on the forum who may be able to assist in answering this question ( @james-martin ?)

I'm not partially sighted, but have done quite a bit of work on sign design in the public realm including developing standards. I can't speak for partially sighted people, but working with some of them in a consultative panel gave me an appreciation of some of the difficulties.

One of the issues is there is no such thing as a standard partially sighted person, and in fact everybody - even the fully sighted - have slightly different perceptions of the things we look at. It is a far more complex subject than most people realise.

My natural eyesight is very poor and I would have to get even closer to the light grey text to be able to read that, compared to the darker bolder text.

That is possibly an example of one of the complexities. I couldn't say for sure without physically measuring the characters on the sign, but looking closely at the text I'd say the black and grey characters are the same font and size - the idea the darker text is "bolder" is probably perception, rather than an actual physical size/shape difference.

This is a known issue in sign design. In a similar (although not identical) situation traffic signs are designed with two slightly different styles of lettering - Transport Heavy and Transport Medium - in order to compensate for a difference in people's perception of white letters on a dark background vs black letters on a light background. When used on the same sign the letters will look the same, but the black characters have slightly larger stroke widths (~bolder)

With the TfW sign it looks like an issue with the lightness of the grey that should have been countered by adopting a marginally larger stroke width.

Partially sighted mean partially sighted not colour blind. They will be able to see exactly the same of both.

Colour blindness has nothing to do with it. But neither will "they" see exactly the same. As lachlan and others have mentioned, the issue with this sign is primarily one of contrast between the grey writing and the white background.

Although "grey" is commonly known as a 'colour' technically it is an achromatic colour (a colour without colour) which sits somewhere in a range between black and white. For a sign to be legible it is important to maintain the contrast between lettering and the background. If the grey on the TfW sign is somewhere around 50% grey then they have (in very rough terms) made it 50% harder for English readers to understand the sign than Welsh readers. So much for being equal.

Please just use the same font and size for both English and Welsh. Making text fainter makes it harder to read.

I know what you mean, but in this case if the colours stay the same then the grey text font needs to be adapted to give both texts equal weight visually.

Personally I'd replace the grey with a dark red as this would maintain contrast for partially sighted people, whilst making a clear distinction between the languages.
 

headshot119

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2010
Messages
2,051
Location
Dubai
I can't speak for other parts of Wales but in Cardiff the announcements are bilingual for stops that have either Welsh or different Welsh and English names and in English only for places with English names.

So it's either "yr arosfan nesaf yw Ysbyty Dewi Sant / The next stop is St David's Hospital" or "the next stop is Neville street". It aligns with the city council's policy of not translating existing street names while ensuring all new streets have Welsh only names until the balance is 50:50 across the city.

The Arriva Sapphire buses on the #1 Wrexham - Chester used to announce bilingually even when the Chester side of the border.
 

Struner

Member
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
923
Location
Ommelanden, EU
It won’t be long now before the little Englanders start complaining that the natives use their mother tongue when spoken to on a visit to the EU. :E
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,191
I need to correct you there all the ATW and the now TfW 175's always have CIS onboard in bilingual.

The onboard CIS is a bit odd however. Some places are listed bilingually; others aren't. It was explained to me that locations where trains terminate are bilingual, but intermediate points (in England at least) are not. As I say, odd.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,191
Why should the website & ticket machines automatically set Welsh as the priority over English - the main language of the people of Wales & the international language of the World? The parking machines on the streets of Cardiff are set to Welsh and this is causing no end of confusion - with locals and visitors alike as they have to find a button to switch them to English. (They then go back to Welsh ready for the next client). If the rail ticket machines get set to Welsh, it will cause no end of problems for the majority as well as foreign visitors.

I think it is appalling the way in which the English language has been treated on new signage that appeared recently at Cardiff Central & no doubt other stations in Wales - see photo below. Not only is it placed second, but it is also considerably fainter than the Welsh version. Who are the Welsh Language Society to dictate to the majority that their language should have such priority and that everybody in Wales should learn Welsh? This surely is not going to favour inward investment into Wales.

View attachment 72441

The Welsh Language Society has no power to dictate anything to anybody.

But I agree that the signage is poor.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
It seems unnecessarily obstructive and an extra risk to present Welsh first in areas where the majority of customers will be looking for the English.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top