FGW trains idling at Oxford sidings overnight

[Aictos]

Well said Pumbaa!!!

 

[Metroland]

Some of your information is not quite correct here. Firstly many of the houses and flats (including mine) were already here before this noise problem started, although it is true that a lot more have been built since then.

It's not true that freight trains belt through every few minutes. The line is relatively quiet, and in any case that is not what is being complained about.

Trains are not being shunted around till 3am. There is in fact no movement on the sidings during the middle of the night. The noise comes from stationary engines left idling in the same spot.

People should not have to live with unnecessary noise or be forced out of their homes because of bad practice on the part of the employees.

The flats on the west side of the station were constructed 10 years ago, the houses on the west side are a little longer. Rewley road sidings were operated all night, with the last trains coming in at 2am, and first ones going out at 4am, since 1992. Before then it was a deisel depot and fueling point, and before then a steam shed/goods yard.

There are freightliner trains travelling at 75mph between 2am and 4am, running to and from Southampton, every night bar saturday. These usually pass every 30 mins or more on one of the lines, and have been doing for some time.

There are also goods loops in both directions where trains can be stored, for whatever reason. EG recess due to engineering work or waiting Didcot yard.

I suspect the most recent troubles have been caused by the stabling of HSTs. I think the power packs are for the turbo trains. The HST service was introduced over the Oxford-London stretch and there are additional HSTs over the Cotswold line (there has always been 3 each way since the 80s) as a response to improving the service and reducing overcrowding. My understanding is they have to be kept ticking over to get them out pre-heated and fault free for the intensive commuter service first thing.

While noise should be kept to the minimum, it has always been a busy yard overnight, and has been since the GWR arrived in the 1840s. (Tried living next to the major trunk and motorways overnnight these days to, or by distribution depots, they are continuous?)

I always thought the access to the flats, on the west side, was an especially silly arrangement. That was always a quiet railway depot acesss road, and never was meant to be a busy thoroughfare.

The blame goes entirely with Oxford city council for granting planning permission, and the people that decided to move in next to a 24 hour railway.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...7654,-1.271195&spn=0.004888,0.015589&t=h&z=17

For people unaware on the area, the row of houses next to the station throat on the right hand side were constructed around 2000, the flats on the left, just after. The access route to the left, was always a semi industrial road and passes at the rear of the station buildings, next to the PSB, emergency generators etc. This was only ever used to get access to the diesel depot before it closed, and subsequently the nursery - as well as NR staff, and other station staff parking.

Finally, when the gauge conversion work for the Midlands to South coast ports is finally done in the next couple of years, I would suspect there is likely to be even more freight trains overnight, because there's not that much space during the day. This is an alternative to heavy lorries clogging up the A43 24 hours of the day and causing even more noise and pollution.

In the end, someone has to live next to major transport corridors, and the prices of property usually reflects this. A little more research would have helped residents make a purchasing decision, those flats/houses are certainly not a place I'd live, even as an enthusiast.

 

[142094]

Not a well thought response. Ear plugs do not block the throbbing vibration sound emitted by these idling engines. Nor do they block the fumes.

Oh dear, someone lacking a sense of humour I think. I wouldn't expect ear plugs to block fumes, unless you have something hugely wrong with your anatomy. Plus I wouldn't expect fimes to be that much of a problem, unless this part of Oxford has some bizarre climatic conditions where the wind is always blowing to your house.

To be frank, why did you decide to live there in the first place? Certainly you wouldn't move next to a road expecting the noise levels to stay the same over time?

And for the record, I live 150m away from the ECML and Metro line, so I have first hand experience of living next to a 24hr railway.

 

[Nick W]

Regardless of any issues of "nimbyism", isn't it absolutely disgraceful that the trains are left idling overnight, in terms of diesel use and pollution? Can you imagine if car drivers did this in winter so they didn't have to scrape the car, streets and streets of cars left idling, emitting foul fumes?

Surely if need be they can get someone from the yard to start diesel engines 15-20 minutes before they're needed or implement a way of starting them remotely if need be (such technology exists).

 

[Isisbridge]

Oh dear...

Pure NIMBYism. Unfortunately the railway was there before the residential developments; I can see no case for residents complaining if fGW decide, and are at liberty to decide, that it is to their maintenance and passenger benefit to leave their engines idling.

It is still a service, after all the privatisation. To suggest "they wear jumpers" you've turned into Marie Antoinette.

The railway was there, but the sidings only started this ALL NIGHT idling of engines 18 months ago. So why did they suddenly "decide" it would be of "benefit" to do this?

 

[Metroland]

Well there is one answer, electric trains. I suspect the NIMBYs will complain about OHL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The railway was there, but the sidings only started this ALL NIGHT idling of engines 18 months ago. So why did they suddenly "decide" it would be of "benefit" to do this?

You'd have to ask First GW, I suspect so the trains don't freeze up over night and fail. Trains end up being cancelled, which causes commuters to jump and down and the government to step in and take the franchise away/fine the company.

 

[Greenback]

I love it when people use pompous terms like 'national disgrace on YouTube! Do they realise how ridiculous they appear?

Isisbridge demands that the company move their trains to a more remote location. Didn't the sidings used to be fairly remote before the flats and houses were built?

Isisbridge acknowledges that the railway has been there longer than the residences, but also states that the noise problem is quite recent. Which makes Metroland's explanation about the HST's sound correct. But, honestly, having chosen to live near railway sidings, did Isisbridge not consider that at some point there may well be disturbance in the future? Or are they really upset with developers for selling it and themselves for buying it?

As someone who lived for seven years near to Landore diesel depot in Swansea, I must say I was never disturbed by either engine noise or fumes in all of that time. Yet I was prepared for it when I bought the house and moved in. Mind you, when I had a flat in Reading I was appalled that I could hear noise from the street at all hours of the night. Sometimes I couldn;t even have my window open because of the drunken shouting and smell of kebabs. If only You Tube and Facebook had been around so I could have started a protest!

 

[Isisbridge]

The flats on the west side of the station were constructed 10 years ago, the houses on the west side are a little longer. Rewley road sidings were operated all night, with the last trains coming in at 2am, and first ones going out at 4am, since 1992. Before then it was a deisel depot and fueling point, and before then a steam shed/goods yard.

There are freightliner trains travelling at 75mph between 2am and 4am, running to and from Southampton, every night bar saturday. These usually pass every 30 mins or more on one of the lines, and have been doing for some time.

There are also goods loops in both directions where trains can be stored, for whatever reason. EG recess due to engineering work or waiting Didcot yard.

I suspect the most recent troubles have been caused by the stabling of HSTs. I think the power packs are for the turbo trains. The HST service was introduced over the Oxford-London stretch and there are additional HSTs over the Cotswold line (there has always been 3 each way since the 80s) as a response to improving the service and reducing overcrowding. My understanding is they have to be kept ticking over to get them out pre-heated and fault free for the intensive commuter service first thing.

While noise should be kept to the minimum, it has always been a busy yard overnight, and has been since the GWR arrived in the 1840s. (Tried living next to the major trunk and motorways overnnight these days to, or by distribution depots, they are continuous?)

I always thought the access to the flats, on the west side, was an especially silly arrangement. That was always a quiet railway depot acesss road, and never was meant to be a busy thoroughfare.

The blame goes entirely with Oxford city council for granting planning permission, and the people that decided to move in next to a 24 hour railway.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...7654,-1.271195&spn=0.004888,0.015589&t=h&z=17

For people unaware on the area, the row of houses next to the station throat on the right hand side were constructed around 2000, the flats on the left, just after. The access route to the left, was always a semi industrial road and passes at the rear of the station buildings, next to the PSB, emergency generators etc. This was only ever used to get access to the diesel depot before it closed, and subsequently the nursery - as well as NR staff, and other station staff parking.

Finally, when the gauge conversion work for the Midlands to South coast ports is finally done in the next couple of years, I would suspect there is likely to be even more freight trains overnight, because there's not that much space during the day. This is an alternative to heavy lorries clogging up the A43 24 hours of the day and causing even more noise and pollution.

In the end, someone has to live next to major transport corridors, and the prices of property usually reflects this. A little more research would have helped residents make a purchasing decision, those flats/houses are certainly not a place I'd live, even as an enthusiast.

Like I said, freight trains are not passing every few minutes. Every thirty minutes, you're now saying. And that does not cause me any problem at all.

Do the first trains go out at 4am? I thought it was more like 6am? And I haven't noticed it being particularly busy yard during the night. In fact there doesn't seem to be much, if anything, coming in after 2am.

I agree that it was probably not a good idea to have all that development on the west side of the railway (particularly as it is also on the flood plain) and the concentrated development does seem to have the effect of channeling the fumes into a narrow corridor where they can't escape.

However, I live on the east side, where there has been development since Victorian times. I especially chose to live here, because it is exceptionally nice in every other way, and I was not aware of the full extent of the problem with the railway sidings until after I had taken up occupancy.

Of course I knew there was a railway here. I am not averse to living near a railway and I am quite happy to hear trains going past. In fact I hardly notice them. However, the continuous droning throbbing of a stationary engine going through your bed is quite another matter. I was certainly not aware of this problem before I moved here (not having the chance to sleep here before moving in) and in any case the engines were not going all night when I first moved here. The all-night running started around December 2008.

I know nothing at all about train operation, but I based my information on a report compiled by a local person with technical knowledge who made a study of train movements at these sidings and estimated that bad practice on the part of the drivers was wasting more than half a million litres of fuel per year. He reckons that the power packs are not used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh dear, someone lacking a sense of humour I think. I wouldn't expect ear plugs to block fumes, unless you have something hugely wrong with your anatomy. Plus I wouldn't expect fimes to be that much of a problem, unless this part of Oxford has some bizarre climatic conditions where the wind is always blowing to your house.

To be frank, why did you decide to live there in the first place? Certainly you wouldn't move next to a road expecting the noise levels to stay the same over time?

And for the record, I live 150m away from the ECML and Metro line, so I have first hand experience of living next to a 24hr railway.

I have a brilliant sense of humour, but it's not very humorous to have some condescending person suggesting I wear ear plugs, as if I'm not intelligent enough to have thought up that idea for myself. I've tried ear plugs and they don't work.

As for climatic conditions, the prevailing wind is westerly (common knowledge if you did geography at school) and I live east of the sidings, so the wind does have a great tendency to blow towards my flat. The old saying "when the wind is in the east, tis neither good for man nor beast" does not hold true in my case. The east wind is a blessing for me, as it is so much quieter here, and less smelly.

And yes, the fumes are a real problem here, because they are chanelled into a narrow corridor, due to the dense (often four-storey) developments having gone up all around the railway within the past ten years or so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I love it when people use pompous terms like 'national disgrace on YouTube! Do they realise how ridiculous they appear?

Isisbridge demands that the company move their trains to a more remote location. Didn't the sidings used to be fairly remote before the flats and houses were built?

Isisbridge acknowledges that the railway has been there longer than the residences, but also states that the noise problem is quite recent. Which makes Metroland's explanation about the HST's sound correct. But, honestly, having chosen to live near railway sidings, did Isisbridge not consider that at some point there may well be disturbance in the future? Or are they really upset with developers for selling it and themselves for buying it?

As someone who lived for seven years near to Landore diesel depot in Swansea, I must say I was never disturbed by either engine noise or fumes in all of that time. Yet I was prepared for it when I bought the house and moved in. Mind you, when I had a flat in Reading I was appalled that I could hear noise from the street at all hours of the night. Sometimes I couldn;t even have my window open because of the drunken shouting and smell of kebabs. If only You Tube and Facebook had been around so I could have started a protest!

"National Disgrace" was not my terminology actually. I was copying from a report compiled by someone else, who has made a study of these sidings. But he's probably right. I mean, all these people exhorting us to use energy-efficient light bulbs to save the planet, and they allow this!

Did the location of the sidings used to be fairly remote? No, I don't think it was actually. There's been a settlement here since Victorian times.

And no, I wasn't aware of the full extent of this problem before I moved here. And it's nothing to do with developers selling me property, because this is not a new property and I don't own it.

 

[j0hn0]

My friends can sympathise with you Isisbridge. They live in a secluded little house in between the old leamington line and the WCML in Rugby.

They have no problems with trains passing at all, like me, they find it relaxing once you get used to it.

It's just that recently, basically since the "upgrade", network rail have been leaving diesels idling all night once a week in the siding that was once the old leamington line.

This is right next to my friends house and causes them no end of sleeping issues when a loco is stationed there overnight.

So my sympathies, its not trains passing that is an issue, its the constant rumbling, vibrating idling that causes the issue.

I play drums, no-one cares about hearing the cymbals, everyone complains about the vibration from the kick drum.

Vibrations I think is the key word here

 

[43167]

Think one of the most daft problems was with houses at Loughborough next to the shed at the GCR. Railway there since before 1900, houses since about 2000. New Residents move in & as soon as a steam loco is been fired up, they complain because of the black smoke.

And on the GCR(N), part of which still has regular freight traffic, trains cant run before 0600 or some stupid like that.

 

[90019]

As for climatic conditions, the prevailing wind is westerly (common knowledge if you did geography at school)

South westerly, I think you'll find


Seriously, I really don't understand the big deal here.
I live pretty much under a flight path, have done for 13 years, and it's not a problem. If you buy a house under a flight path, next to a railway or a main road, expect there to be noise and vibrations.
If you choose to live there and never expect the noise levels to change, then you're just being ignorant.

And yes, I understand about the vibrations as well, I live in a pretty old house (about 120 years old or so), so you do feel the vibrations. For a few years, the road outside became the main throughfare for trucks going to and from a large building site nearby. Every time one passed, the whole house vibrate and shook, but you know what? It didn't matter. The road can be fairly busy, and the trucks had every right to be on it.
There was also a generator (sometimes 2) going 24/7 for about 7-8 months, which I could hear and feel in my room for the whole time, but again, it really didn't matter; I learned to block it out.

 

[Greenback]

Like I said, freight trains are not passing every few minutes. Every thirty minutes, you're now saying. And that does not cause me any problem at all.

Do the first trains go out at 4am? I thought it was more like 6am? And I haven't noticed it being particularly busy yard during the night. In fact there doesn't seem to be much, if anything, coming in after 2am.

I agree that it was probably not a good idea to have all that development on the west side of the railway (particularly as it is also on the flood plain) and the concentrated development does seem to have the effect of channeling the fumes into a narrow corridor where they can't escape.

However, I live on the east side, where there has been development since Victorian times. I especially chose to live here, because it is exceptionally nice in every other way, and I was not aware of the full extent of the problem with the railway sidings until after I had taken up occupancy.

Of course I knew there was a railway here. I am not averse to living near a railway and I am quite happy to hear trains going past. In fact I hardly notice them. However, the continuous droning throbbing of a stationary engine going through your bed is quite another matter. I was certainly not aware of this problem before I moved here (not having the chance to sleep here before moving in) and in any case the engines were not going all night when I first moved here. The all-night running started around December 2008.

I know nothing at all about train operation, but I based my information on a report compiled by a local person with technical knowledge who made a study of train movements at these sidings and estimated that bad practice on the part of the drivers was wasting more than half a million litres of fuel per year. He reckons that the power packs are not used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I have a brilliant sense of humour, but it's not very humorous to have some condescending person suggesting I wear ear plugs, as if I'm not intelligent enough to have thought up that idea for myself. I've tried ear plugs and they don't work.

As for climatic conditions, the prevailing wind is westerly (common knowledge if you did geography at school) and I live east of the sidings, so the wind does have a great tendency to blow towards my flat. The old saying "when the wind is in the east, tis neither good for man nor beast" does not hold true in my case. The east wind is a blessing for me, as it is so much quieter here, and less smelly.

And yes, the fumes are a real problem here, because they are chanelled into a narrow corridor, due to the dense (often four-storey) developments having gone up all around the railway within the past ten years or so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


"National Disgrace" was not my terminology actually. I was copying from a report compiled by someone else, who has made a study of these sidings. But he's probably right. I mean, all these people exhorting us to use energy-efficient light bulbs to save the planet, and they allow this!

Did the location of the sidings used to be fairly remote? No, I don't think it was actually. There's been a settlement here since Victorian times.

And no, I wasn't aware of the full extent of this problem before I moved here. And it's nothing to do with developers selling me property, because this is not a new property and I don't own it.

I did not say it was your phrase. I just love the pomposity of its use by anyone. I mean, of all the things that we could classify a natinal disgrace, I don't think that a private company wasting fuel is one of them. (What I would term a national disgrace is invading other countries and breaking international law, innocent photgraphers being harrassed and threatened by PCSO's in a way that would have been unthinkable in Soviet Russia, and the fact that MP's get a golden handshake when they step. I'm sure others can think of a lot more!). I'm not sure even the Labour government has introduced a fuel wastage watchdog, so I don't know who the 'they' are that allow this to happen.

I'm sorry for the tone of soem of my post. I think I misread what you have actually been saying. Havign looked again at your posts, I think you have got a point regarding the power packs. If there is a way for FGW to operate their HST's without leaving them running all night, then this should definitely be used. I'm also sorry for assuming that you live in one of the newly developed flats. I try to avoid assumptions normally, looks like I failed on this occasion!

In mitigation, I have been involved in trying to defend pubs and sports clubs from complaints and action brought by people who moved into nearby old and new properties. This has probably coloured my views about people who may be raising legitimate complaints.

 

[Metroland]

Drivers wasting 500 tonnes of fuel per year needs to be taken with a pinch of salt I feel. The entire rail consumption is 686,000 tonnes, I find it hard to believe 1.3% of the entire network's fuel is wasted in Oxford with a few HSTs ticking over.

Just as a comparison road consumption is 37,416,000 tonnes and air is 12,172,000 tonnes.

The best thing to do is contact First Great Western, as a company that gets quite concerned about wasting energy, you should tell them of the facts you find and see what the response is.

If they don't talk to one person, set up a website and a local community group, take it to the Oxford Mail.

Kevin Gale is their operations manager.

First Great Western
1 Milford Street
Swindon
Wiltshire SN1 1HL

01793 499400

 

[Greenback]

FGW will undoubtedly be concerned about the waste of money!

 

[Metroland]

£350,000 worth based on the cost of red diesel per litre, which is about 70p

70 x 1000 = 70,000 / 100 = £700 per tonne

£700 x 500 tonnes = £350,000

 

[Isisbridge]

My friends can sympathise with you Isisbridge. They live in a secluded little house in between the old leamington line and the WCML in Rugby.

They have no problems with trains passing at all, like me, they find it relaxing once you get used to it.

It's just that recently, basically since the "upgrade", network rail have been leaving diesels idling all night once a week in the siding that was once the old leamington line.

This is right next to my friends house and causes them no end of sleeping issues when a loco is stationed there overnight.

So my sympathies, its not trains passing that is an issue, its the constant rumbling, vibrating idling that causes the issue.

I play drums, no-one cares about hearing the cymbals, everyone complains about the vibration from the kick drum.

Vibrations I think is the key word here

Nice to have a sympathetic response after all the flak!

Vibration is indeed the key word and it's not something that I can demonstrate with video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPmSnYjBEHg
My video recording is just picking up the higher pitch sounds, which can to some extent be shut out with double-glazing. But it is the low-pitch pulsing sound that is the killer. I can hear this through my pillow, even though my bedroom is on the other side of the building from the railway, and ear plugs do not eliminate it.

If it stops round about 1-2am, then I can get into a deep sleep and hopefully sleep through the early morning fire-up at around 4-5am. But when it goes on continuously all night I can't get to sleep in the first place.

I hope your friends' problem will be resolved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think one of the most daft problems was with houses at Loughborough next to the shed at the GCR. Railway there since before 1900, houses since about 2000. New Residents move in & as soon as a steam loco is been fired up, they complain because of the black smoke.

And on the GCR(N), part of which still has regular freight traffic, trains cant run before 0600 or some stupid like that.

Move the steam locos down to Jericho! I'd love to have steam trains at the bottom of my garden! (Not very green though, I'll admit.)

 

[eddygrim]

i dont know what the problem trains 24/7 wish i could live there.

I Own Number 43301

 

[Isisbridge]

South westerly, I think you'll find


Seriously, I really don't understand the big deal here.
I live pretty much under a flight path, have done for 13 years, and it's not a problem. If you buy a house under a flight path, next to a railway or a main road, expect there to be noise and vibrations.
If you choose to live there and never expect the noise levels to change, then you're just being ignorant.

And yes, I understand about the vibrations as well, I live in a pretty old house (about 120 years old or so), so you do feel the vibrations. For a few years, the road outside became the main throughfare for trucks going to and from a large building site nearby. Every time one passed, the whole house vibrate and shook, but you know what? It didn't matter. The road can be fairly busy, and the trucks had every right to be on it.
There was also a generator (sometimes 2) going 24/7 for about 7-8 months, which I could hear and feel in my room for the whole time, but again, it really didn't matter; I learned to block it out.

Yep, south-westerly. I was just trying to simplify matters.

You're lucky that you could block out the vibration from the generator. Some people can't. Particularly people with certains types of neurological disability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did not say it was your phrase. I just love the pomposity of its use by anyone. I mean, of all the things that we could classify a natinal disgrace, I don't think that a private company wasting fuel is one of them. (What I would term a national disgrace is invading other countries and breaking international law, innocent photgraphers being harrassed and threatened by PCSO's in a way that would have been unthinkable in Soviet Russia, and the fact that MP's get a golden handshake when they step. I'm sure others can think of a lot more!). I'm not sure even the Labour government has introduced a fuel wastage watchdog, so I don't know who the 'they' are that allow this to happen.

I'm sorry for the tone of soem of my post. I think I misread what you have actually been saying. Havign looked again at your posts, I think you have got a point regarding the power packs. If there is a way for FGW to operate their HST's without leaving them running all night, then this should definitely be used. I'm also sorry for assuming that you live in one of the newly developed flats. I try to avoid assumptions normally, looks like I failed on this occasion!

In mitigation, I have been involved in trying to defend pubs and sports clubs from complaints and action brought by people who moved into nearby old and new properties. This has probably coloured my views about people who may be raising legitimate complaints.

I agree there are a lot of other national disgraces, but I think pollution has to be one of them! I am a photographer too:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61686932@N00/sets/72157622665218531/
and I wouldn't like to be harassed by PCSOs for taking photographs, but I would rate this as being of higher importance.

I think the person who originally made that "national disgrace" comment is trying to put pressure on FGW to make more use of their power packs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Drivers wasting 500 tonnes of fuel per year needs to be taken with a pinch of salt I feel. The entire rail consumption is 686,000 tonnes, I find it hard to believe 1.3% of the entire network's fuel is wasted in Oxford with a few HSTs ticking over.

Just as a comparison road consumption is 37,416,000 tonnes and air is 12,172,000 tonnes.

The best thing to do is contact First Great Western, as a company that gets quite concerned about wasting energy, you should tell them of the facts you find and see what the response is.

If they don't talk to one person, set up a website and a local community group, take it to the Oxford Mail.

Kevin Gale is their operations manager.

First Great Western
1 Milford Street
Swindon
Wiltshire SN1 1HL

01793 499400

I can't argue with that, as I didn't do the figures and don't know anything about such matters. I was simply repeating (rightly or wrongly) what had been said in a local report. As for the Oxford Mail, they've already had a number of letters on the subject, and it's also been on BBC radio and TV. And I believe that local councillors have been on to FGW about it for some time.

 

[142094]

I have a brilliant sense of humour, but it's not very humorous to have some condescending person suggesting I wear ear plugs, as if I'm not intelligent enough to have thought up that idea for myself. I've tried ear plugs and they don't work.

As for climatic conditions, the prevailing wind is westerly (common knowledge if you did geography at school) and I live east of the sidings, so the wind does have a great tendency to blow towards my flat. The old saying "when the wind is in the east, tis neither good for man nor beast" does not hold true in my case. The east wind is a blessing for me, as it is so much quieter here, and less smelly.

Good to hear you have a sense of humour. Thanks for clarifying that point.

Also yes I did geography at school, and I'm guessing I know a bit more about it that you, and I'm guessing I know more about wind patterns as well. That is unless you happen to be a meteorologist or climatologist. The prevailing wind may come from the south west, but that doesn't necessarily mean it does at all times, as I'm sure you know. And of course there are many other factors involved which would take too long to put down.

I also happen to know a bit about planning, and if I can find the documents about the development you live at I will look at whether the council had any concerns before development commenced, and whether there were conditions attached to the planning permission. What I can assure you is that developments near to sources of noise such as sidings will have conditions about the type of window and other things. I'll have a look and let you know.

Now the real issue I guess you are commenting on is the fact that they have decided to change the way they stable trains. I don't work for FGW, nor am I a driver, but I assume that there is a very good reason for this. The amount of local and national regulations, as well as internal ones should assure that leaving engines running for no apparent reason is nullified.

 

[KiddyKid]

I assume the noise problem is with HST's rather than Class 165/166 units. Since the power cars have been re-engined with the more efficient MTU engine there has been a need to preheat the diesel engine prior to starting, this can be done from the train supply or from a shore supply. I would assume that there is no three phase supply to the stabling roads in the yard and therfore the power cars can only be preheated form the train supply which requires at least one power car to be running. I know this does not help the situation but might give you a reason for why they do it.

 

[142094]

As far as I understand you don't live at the new development, but I have checked the planning conditions and decision notices. The first application was refused due to the planning board wanting more affordable housing. No mention of the effect of the railway here. This was overturned on appeal, and the application granted. The application number for part of the site to the west of the sidings is 03/01874/FUL if you'd like to look yourself. Also I've looked at 07/01234/FUL which was for a development of student housing, which again does not contain any information about noise pollution in the area.

 

[Isisbridge]

I assume the noise problem is with HST's rather than Class 165/166 units. Since the power cars have been re-engined with the more efficient MTU engine there has been a need to preheat the diesel engine prior to starting, this can be done from the train supply or from a shore supply. I would assume that there is no three phase supply to the stabling roads in the yard and therfore the power cars can only be preheated form the train supply which requires at least one power car to be running. I know this does not help the situation but might give you a reason for why they do it.

I've no idea what type of trains they are. Perhaps you could look at this photo and let me know: http://www.flickr.com/photos/61686932@N00/4587464869/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I understand you don't live at the new development, but I have checked the planning conditions and decision notices. The first application was refused due to the planning board wanting more affordable housing. No mention of the effect of the railway here. This was overturned on appeal, and the application granted. The application number for part of the site to the west of the sidings is 03/01874/FUL if you'd like to look yourself. Also I've looked at 07/01234/FUL which was for a development of student housing, which again does not contain any information about noise pollution in the area.

I live EAST of the railway in a 1980 development.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

They are cl.165/166's I think.

 

[Metroland]

Have been stabled on the up side (east side) since 1992. From around midnight trains arriving at Oxford tend to arrive in the up platform (or at least did from most of the time since 1992) and head down the sidings, with the last train arriving at 1.30am. The sidings are re-arranged every night, ready for returning services and most of the units are left on for cleaning and moving.

First trains are due back out around 4am (indeed this has been the case for many years), with empty coaching stock moves to various places in the area to, for example the returning 0637 and 0649 services.

Up services from Oxford are at 0400, 0503, 0534, 0545, 0559 (HST), 0607, 0627 (HST), 0637 (ex Banbury), 0649 (ex Bicester), 0656 (HST), 0709 (HST) and so on.

There's usually a ferryman booked at oxford to take the trains backwards and forwards to the station from the sidings.

 

[142094]

I live EAST of the railway in a 1980 development.

Yes I understand that, however this shows that Oxford City Council and its planners did not think that the noise from the sidings would be a reason to refuse planning permission. So they must think the noise levels are within acceptable limits.

An earlier poster suggested getting in contact with FGW and Oxford CC. See what they have to say.

 

[Pumbaa]

Was able to chew this over and do some digging while out today - 3 vital facts to add in which will explain your problem isisbridge, 2 of which have been touched on.

I suspect the most recent troubles have been caused by the stabling of HSTs. I think the power packs are for the turbo trains. The HST service was introduced over the Oxford-London stretch and there are additional HSTs over the Cotswold line (there has always been 3 each way since the 80s) as a response to improving the service and reducing overcrowding. My understanding is they have to be kept ticking over to get them out pre-heated and fault free for the intensive commuter service first thing.

Correct - the power packs are for the Turbos. HSTs cannot be easily attached to powerpacks, and these ones are incompatible. New ones would be required for the trailers, but these would be superfluous because...

The MTU warranty! The contract between MTU and fGW explicitly states that the warranty becomes invalid if the engine components fall below a certain optimum temperature. To obtain this temperature, the engines can't be stood off for more than an hour half - two hours. Thus power packs cannot be used, as its the oil and fluids (I can't obtain the exact one, but will edit it in later).

Regardless of any issues of "nimbyism", isn't it absolutely disgraceful that the trains are left idling overnight, in terms of diesel use and pollution? Can you imagine if car drivers did this in winter so they didn't have to scrape the car, streets and streets of cars left idling, emitting foul fumes?

Covered by my point above. Hopefully this new technology is emerging soon - there is a reason why the GC HSTs are coming back /9s This will hopefully move us on from MTU and the warranty issue.

The railway was there, but the sidings only started this ALL NIGHT idling of engines 18 months ago. So why did they suddenly "decide" it would be of "benefit" to do this?

As touched on already, Dec 08 saw a significant Timetable change, which involved more Oxford and Cotswold services being operated by HSTs. Thus more HSTs sit in the sidings overnight. And unfortunately this cannot be reversed, as it's a requirement of the DfT to help combat overcrowding.

You'd have to ask First GW, I suspect so the trains don't freeze up over night and fail. Trains end up being cancelled, which causes commuters to jump and down and the government to step in and take the franchise away/fine the company.

Covered above; but essentially this is also the reason why trains are started early in the morning. unfortunately we can't just ask passengers to "wear jumpers"...

The all-night running started around December 2008.

Covered above - new timetable.

So, to summarise:

- Powerpacks are for the Turbo trains only; cannot be used on HSTs.
- HST powercars need to be lift idling overnight to keep the engine warm, and thus avoid voiding the warranty on their 'new' engines. MTU currently maintain their engines as well at Canton, St P Marsh and OOC.
- New timetable requires more HSTs from 2008 Dec.

What this means for you isisbridge is you now have answers. What can be done, I think, will be very little. Unless you offer to stump up on the warranty of course!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume the noise problem is with HST's rather than Class 165/166 units. Since the power cars have been re-engined with the more efficient MTU engine there has been a need to preheat the diesel engine prior to starting, this can be done from the train supply or from a shore supply. I would assume that there is no three phase supply to the stabling roads in the yard and therfore the power cars can only be preheated form the train supply which requires at least one power car to be running. I know this does not help the situation but might give you a reason for why they do it.

Spot on - requires at least 1 PC idling to keep heat up. Maintenance regime set by MTU requires it. And no supply at Oxford. Don't know whether or not its proposed though.

 

[Isisbridge]

Yes I understand that, however this shows that Oxford City Council and its planners did not think that the noise from the sidings would be a reason to refuse planning permission. So they must think the noise levels are within acceptable limits.

An earlier poster suggested getting in contact with FGW and Oxford CC. See what they have to say.

I think it may be the case that this noise nuisance was not in existence when these flats were built. The above poster says the engines were moved up here in 1992. I wasn't around then, but someone told me there were complaints from residents when it first started.

It does not follow that the granting of planning permission for further developments means that the Council thinks the noise is within acceptable limits. Many Councillors are aware that the noise is quite UNacceptable, but, because it is a nuisance in terms of duration and type of noise rather than decibel level, it is not considered a statutory nuisance.

To quote from the recent report (not mine):

"In the past various efforts were made by Environmental Health to reduce train noise at Jericho. This failed because although noise was almost continuous, it never exceeds what would be classed as a statutory noise problem. The officers were actually handicapped by the legislation. Only when one thinks about the chemical pollution is it clear how bad the situation is.

It is bad in summer when we wish to enjoy the outside environment, but it is even worse for health in colder periods when temperature inversions trap and force the fumes sideways into the streets and waterways. The contribution of CO2 to global warming is unacceptable. It is surprising that company accountants are unconcerned about the wastage of fuel; the cost is clearly added to ticket prices.

Local residents’ protests have never been taken very seriously. One resident has installed triple glazing, another was driven out of a new house, many have to keep windows sealed at all times of the year. There are in truth some who have been in despair over noise and fumes but not fully listened to."

You suggest I get in contact with FGW and the Council, but this has already happened. I was invited to take part in a radio programme with a spokesman from First Great Western, and he assured me that there is no problem, because the engines are never running for more than fifteen minutes at a time! Unfortunately there's a ten-minute limit on YouTube, otherwise I could easily disprove his statement!

 

[mindfeeder]

Did I just cause a MASSIVE argument?

Anyway I grew up on Walton Well Road, backing onto Lucy's foundry. That usually "out shouted" the railway sidings. Ironically, the new development is on the old site of that foundry.

 

[Isisbridge]

Did I just cause a MASSIVE argument?

Anyway I grew up on Walton Well Road, backing onto Lucy's foundry. That usually "out shouted" the railway sidings. Ironically, the new development is on the old site of that foundry.

"THE" new development? That's just one of them!

 

[142094]

You say the report is not yours, but do not say where it has come from (unless I have missed this in a previous post). If you have the full report, please share it with us.

The statements seem very generalised. CO2 is emitted by all forms of transport, yet whilst it is widely conisdered to be the most important greenhouse gas in the eyes of the general public, it isn't. You don't mention if the report states the levels of CO2 and CO2e gases, so it is hard to make a comparison with other situations.