Merseyrail Penalty Fares

[jon0844]

I'd LOVE to see what the RPI that gave me a PF (see the Livid! thread) would have done if I'd been a 20-something leggy blonde with loads of cleavage on show!

 

[CarterUSM]

A mobile phone number perhaps.

 

[Greenback]

Ha ha, most amusing. Unlucky mate! What people want to see is consistency, and unfortunately this is an unlikely aim, given some staffs various dispositions towards their commercial duties. The situation you describe though john is patently favouritism, and if I had been one of the penalty fared individuals, I would have been pretty miffed at this.

It's difficult to avoid allegations of favouritism, and achieve consistency, where discretion is involved. However, Jon's example is a good, if a little extreme, example of how it can affect people in a practical way.

I'm not in favour of PF's, and this is another reason why. I think mthey are ineffective at targetting serial evaders, and are used by lazy TOC's as an easy way to appear to be doing something.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's difficult to avoid allegations of favouritism, and achieve consistency, where discretion is involved. However, Jon's example is a good, if a little extreme, example of how it can affect people in a practical way.

I'm not in favour of PF's, and this is another reason why. I think mthey are ineffective at targetting serial evaders, and are used by lazy TOC's as an easy way to appear to be doing something.

Indeed,i'm in agreement , we do not have penalty fares up here thank goodness, though we do standard fare individuals from manned stations where they had an opportunity to buy. Again though, i've always thought a bit of discretion goes a long way in many cases, a friendly reminder of their own responsibilities as a passenger will encourage people to buy before they board and save them from a bit of possible hassle .

 

[nedchester]

Believe it or not, but there is a security contractor paid to sit and remotely watch the TVMs 24/7! That person is the point of contact for the RPIs for any queries about the machines, their status etc...

The software allegedly lets you pull video pretty much straight away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



1. Merseyrail would have rang the TVM remote operator to find out if there is a problem with the machine. If it comes back as all clear, and nothing has been detected in the fault logs, then Merseyrail has proved that they provided the means to pay. It may well be the card was defective or user error, in which case you are liable for a Penalty Fare as you did not have valid means to purchase a ticket- in fact that could even lead to prosecution if it was proved that you knew your card wouldn't work and you travelled, but anyway that's an aside. As far as Merseyrail is concerned, you're in the wrong because their systems and the log history shows no problems. It's hard for an RPI to accept your version of events if someone else says there are no problems, or other people managed to use their card. Although the machine may be faulty, it's really hard for an RPI to accept your version of events. With all Penalty Fares discretion is allowed, but does NOT have to be exercised. It is very circumstantial.

Would the machine be able to 'tell' whether it had an intermittent fault or not as seemed to be the case here?

In my case I tried two different cards and the machine 'hung' and nothing happened but eventually reset itself after a minute or so.

Whilst I have no problem with the penalty fares system I do feel that the railway does seem to presume guilt of its customers rather than taking into account the passenger who may have a genuine reason for not having a ticket.

 

[Greenback]

The majority of people in my neck of the woods will actively seek to purchase a ticket before getting on the train. I've seen people have notes rejected, and borrow of friends in order to get a ticket out of the TVM! And we hav eno PF's either! I seem to have a distant memory of them being first introduced in the South East when DOO was first introduced and coincided with an increase in open stations. But I may be wrong on that!

 

[jon0844]

When it is clear that someone didn't bother to buy a ticket or has no intention of paying, you come down on them hard. You don't let them off 'this once' and send out all the wrong signals.

THAT will then stop people trying it on.

At the moment, people who kick up a fuss get off and the easy prey get the penalty fares and bad treatment.

The railway also needs to realise that they should staff stations whenever trains are running. At the very least, even if the ticket office is closed, there would be someone on duty who could confirm that a TVM wasn't working properly and perhaps issue a permit to travel if they couldn't sell a ticket themselves.

Totally unmanned stations should also issue permits - with the knowledge that there will be staff along the way or at the destination. If the railway doesn't have anyone at any point, but you have a permit, then you've at least done your bit.

Just as I get angry for people treated unfairly, so I get equally angry when people are punished with PFs as an 'easy option'.

Would the machine be able to 'tell' whether it had an intermittent fault or not as seemed to be the case here?

At my station, one of the outdoor TVMs will often fail in wet weather. The touchscreen stops responding in certain places, making it impossible to complete a full transaction. However, it will not be able to report that as a fault unless they have some very clever software that works out there might be a fault if people are pressing to start the ticket buying process but never complete it!

I had to explain this to an RPI who was getting ready to issue lots of PFs on the train (I personally had a season but my wife couldn't get a ticket) and feel I only got away with it because there were so many other people who boarded the same carriage who had been in the same situation. Now I suppose we could have all been in on some mega-scam planned in advance!

 

[nedchester]

At my station, one of the outdoor TVMs will often fail in wet weather. The touchscreen stops responding in certain places, making it impossible to complete a full transaction. However, it will not be able to report that as a fault unless they have some very clever software that works out there might be a fault if people are pressing to start the ticket buying process but never complete it!

The touchscreen thing is an interesting one. The other week I went to Capenhurst to buy a ticket in advance for the next day (which you can do from these machines) It was about 3 in the afternoon and I couldn't do it? Why not because the machine was faulty but because the sun was at such an angle that I couldn't read the screen due to the glare. So what if you can't read the screen because of the sun. No doubt the RPI would ching you up £20 but I genuinely couldn't see the screen. I went back later and got my ticket.

 

[Greenback]

I'm sure that glare on the screen and a touchscreen that doesn;t work properly will be familiar to many regular travellers. It's not so much of a problem when there are several machines to choose from, or if it isn;t a penalty fare area. But the combination of a PF zone, malfunctioning hardware, a single TVM in an unstaffed station is a recipe for misery. At the very least, PF's should not be permitted from unstaffed or partially staffed stations!