Paying only when challenged – cash vs card

[AlbertBeale]

What do you mean by "that would be usable for an expensive train journey"?

Is he someone who draws his whole salary in cash at the start of the month? That is a choice. If you can have the cash, you can leave it in the bank and pay by debit card.

Let's say it's someone who is highly responsible in terms of his work, and is entrusted with a card that can be used for spending on behalf of the organisation, but who is nevertheless sometimes not on top of his personal finances and sometimes ends up with a card which doesn't have a usable balance on it, even though he has some money in his pocket. Not everyone is as well-organised and forward-thinking as you appear to be (and I try to be).

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is this really a problem anywhere else than on these pages?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is this really a problem anywhere else than on these pages?

Is wanting to pay in cash, and not using a machine that is card-only, without suffering any penalty, a problem in many places other than on these pages?? (Or is that what you meant?!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is wanting to pay in cash, and not using a machine that is card-only, without suffering any penalty, a problem in many places other than on these pages?? (Or is that what you meant?!)

You can't pay cash on London buses, if you want a major public transport example.

The increased speed of boarding from this proves it to have very much been the right decision.

 

[sheff1]

You can't pay cash on London buses, if you want a major public transport example.

The increased speed of boarding from this proves it to have very much been the right decision.

You can pay by contactless on buses in Sheffield but the time taken (by students in particular) to present a phone in the correct way to make a payment means boarding is no quicker, and often slower, than when cash was the only option.

 

[Hadders]

You can pay by contactless on buses in Sheffield but the time taken (by students in particular) to present a phone in the correct way to make a payment means boarding is no quicker, and often slower, than when cash was the only option.

That's different to how it works in London because in London it's a flat fare so everyone just taps in and gets charged the same amount. Elsewhere fares vary so the ticket you wish to buy has to be selected on the machine by the driver then you can pay by contactless. This takes longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's different to how it works in London because in London it's a flat fare so everyone just taps in and gets charged the same amount. Elsewhere fares vary so the ticket you wish to buy has to be selected on the machine by the driver then you can pay by contactless. This takes longer.

If that's Ticketer machines it isn't helped by the fact that presenting the card early confuses it.

 

[neilmc]

Another consideration is that an overseas visitor might just load their wallet with cash and pay just one transaction charge as opposed to lots of small charges which add up when using card payment out of ones own financial system. In other words, you DON'T use cards for everyday expenses - like train tickets - unless you have one which has zero charges and a reasonable exchange rate, if you think that carrying cash is sufficiently low-risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another consideration is that an overseas visitor might just load their wallet with cash and pay just one transaction charge as opposed to lots of small charges which add up when using card payment out of ones own financial system. In other words, you DON'T use cards for everyday expenses - like train tickets - unless you have one which has zero charges and a reasonable exchange rate, if you think that carrying cash is sufficiently low-risk.

If you are with a bank that hits you with a flat charge for a debit card transaction, find a new bank. There are plenty that simply charge a percentage or indeed don't charge anything.

But fundamentally there is no need for us to set our system up specifically for tourists. Workarounds can be found for them.

 

[CrispyUK]

If you are with a bank that hits you with a flat charge for a debit card transaction, find a new bank. There are plenty that simply charge a percentage or indeed don't charge anything.

I have a credit card that allows fee-free overseas spending, which is a different card & bank to what I usually use for my UK spending. I travel overseas often enough to make it worth maintaining both, that may not be the case for others. Overseas cards can sometimes be unpredictable in whether they are accepted, especially for self-serve situations such as a TVM. I’ve been unable to use my UK MasterCard at ticket machines (and petrol pumps!) on the continent on several occasions.

But fundamentally there is no need for us to set our system up specifically for tourists. Workarounds can be found for them.

Such as allowing them to purchase a ticket on board the train using cash?

 

[sheff1]

If you are with a bank that hits you with a flat charge for a debit card transaction, find a new bank. There are plenty that simply charge a percentage or indeed don't charge anything
But fundamentally there is no need for us to set our system up specifically for tourists. Workarounds can be found for them.

At the risk of going off topic, I have the sort of cards you describe but have found on recent visits to Sweden (an increasingly cashless society) an apparently growing number of places which do not accept cash but also only accept payment by Swish which is a system only available to persons with a Swedish ID number and Swedish bank account. The message is clearly "if you are not a Swedish resident we don't want your custom". The only workaround I have found is a willing Swede who will pay and accept your cash.

I have not heard of a similar locals-only payment system in the UK, but wouldn't put it past the 'get rid of cash' zealots proposing one.

Such as allowing them to purchase a ticket on board the train using cash?

What an excellent idea.

 

[MikeWh]

You can't pay cash on London buses, if you want a major public transport example.

Whilst you can't pay cash ON the bus, you can pay for a day travelcard or Oystercard using cash at any of the numerous ticket-stop shops.

 

[Busaholic]

Latest estimate of number of adults without a bank account in the U.K. is 1.2 million, down from around 2.5 million in the early part of the century. It probably goes without saying that virtually none of them will have available credit card facilities either. So, it's still far from isolated cases where cash is the only way of paying for services.Such people, assuming they are sufficiently part of society to have a permanent home with utility supplies will usually end up paying more for those supplies because of how bills are skewed to make those who have least money pay more proportionately, which situation is unlikely to be reformed during the currency of this government.
,

 

[35B]

You can't pay cash on London buses, if you want a major public transport example.

The increased speed of boarding from this proves it to have very much been the right decision.

From personal experience on an occasional visit to London with an under 16, I would beg to differ. It is a hostile set up, designed to fleece those who do not fit a pre defined mould, and with the sort of ethics associated with prepayment meters.

That is in a city with reasonable alternatives readily available. On the national network, I would regard imposing cashless payments (which, incidentally, suit me personally quite well) as a further descent into digital exclusion and as such undermining of the railways claim to social necessity.

 

[Non Multi]

I had a very similar experience to the original post. I did not want to pay by card. The TfL Rail TVM kept rejecting my £10 banknote. I had 2 options: go to the next station to pay the fare with cash and wait half an hour for the next train, or take a bus which was due in 5 minutes. I took the bus, paid £8 for a day ticket (bus service was outside London) and train operator GWR got nothing that day.

If rail operators want to turn fare paying custom away they're definitely going the right way about it.

 

[Dai Corner]

I had a very similar experience to the original post. I did not want to pay by card. The TfL Rail TVM kept rejecting my £10 banknote. I had 2 options: go to the next station to pay the fare with cash and wait half an hour for the next train, or take a bus which was due in 5 minutes. I took the bus, paid £8 for a day ticket (bus service was outside London) and train operator GWR got nothing that day.

If rail operators want to turn fare paying custom away they're definitely going the right way about it.

This is the sort of thing I, and I think others reading the thread, find hard to understand.

Presumably you preferred to use the train or you'd have gone to the bus stop not the station. Why not use your card to buy the ticket then later pay cash for something else, withdraw less from an ATM or even pay cash in to your account to put you back to where you would have been if you'd paid cash for the train ticket?

 

[AM9]

This is the sort of thing I, and I think others reading the thread, find hard to understand.

Presumably you preferred to use the train or you'd have gone to the bus stop not the station. Why not use your card to buy the ticket then later pay cash for something else, withdraw less from an ATM or even pay cash in to your account to put you back to where you would have been if you'd paid cash for the train ticket?

Some people budget that way. Having immediate access to all of their resources might be great for retailers to sell things that people don't really want and can't really afford, but if individuals find that drawing out a safe amount of cash, say, each week works for them, why should they not do so?

 

[FGW_DID]

I had a very similar experience to the original post. I did not want to pay by card. The TfL Rail TVM kept rejecting my £10 banknote. I had 2 options: go to the next station to pay the fare with cash and wait half an hour for the next train, or take a bus which was due in 5 minutes. I took the bus, paid £8 for a day ticket (bus service was outside London) and train operator GWR got nothing that day.

If rail operators want to turn fare paying custom away they're definitely going the right way about it.

Really, just because a TVM which takes cash didn’t accept your £10 note! Why didn’t you just pay by card, I appreciate you may not have the funds in your account but c’mon really.

This is the sort of thing I, and I think others reading the thread, find hard to understand.

Presumably you preferred to use the train or you'd have gone to the bus stop not the station. Why not use your card to buy the ticket then later pay cash for something else.............

Exactly this ^

 

[Dai Corner]

Some people budget that way. Having immediate access to all of their resources might be great for retailers to sell things that people don't really want and can't really afford, but if individuals find that drawing out a safe amount of cash, say, each week works for them, why should they not do so?

I get that, that's why I added the bit about putting things straight later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From personal experience on an occasional visit to London with an under 16, I would beg to differ. It is a hostile set up, designed to fleece those who do not fit a pre defined mould, and with the sort of ethics associated with prepayment meters

Some aspects of it are certainly questionable but they are not an issue with card only payment per se, least of all card only payment at a TVM where you can purchase any manner of tickets for any number of people. The railway simply moving to card only payment would not suffer those issues.

That is in a city with reasonable alternatives readily available. On the national network, I would regard imposing cashless payments (which, incidentally, suit me personally quite well) as a further descent into digital exclusion and as such undermining of the railways claim to social necessity.

You can hardly call not holding a basic bank account with debit card "digital exclusion". It's not a modern technology, it's one that's been around for years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some people budget that way. Having immediate access to all of their resources might be great for retailers to sell things that people don't really want and can't really afford, but if individuals find that drawing out a safe amount of cash, say, each week works for them, why should they not do so?

Because it puts a burden of cost and inconvenience on other people and businesses to provide for their ever-less-common desire. And the idea is rapidly being replaced with bank apps which can give you an up to date figure of what you've got in your account and is available to spend having taken monthly commitments off.

Cash is expensive to process, awkward to use, and encourages crime. We would be much better off following the Scandinavian countries and just getting rid.

 

[yorkie]

We would be much better off following the Scandinavian countries and just getting rid.

Until then, people are entitled to use cash and are not "fare dodging" by doing so (as about 4 people, not you, appear to be falsely claiming).

 

[Dai Corner]

Because it puts a burden of cost and inconvenience on other people and businesses to provide for their ever-less-common desire. And the idea is rapidly being replaced with bank apps which can give you an up to date figure of what you've got in your account and is available to spend having taken monthly commitments off.

Cash is expensive to process, awkward to use, and encourages crime. We would be much better off following the Scandinavian countries and just getting rid.

Budgeting is easier if you can see exactly where every £ was spent rather than thinking 'I wonder where that £100 I drew out last week went?'

 

[AM9]

Because it puts a burden of cost and inconvenience on other people and businesses to provide for their ever-less-common desire. And the idea is rapidly being replaced with bank apps which can give you an up to date figure of what you've got in your account and is available to spend having taken monthly commitments off.

Cash is expensive to process, awkward to use, and encourages crime. We would be much better off following the Scandinavian countries and just getting rid.

So now the proposition is to force those who just about manage their resources responsibly to acquire a smartphone (which in the case of some elderly people or those with other learning issues may cause yet more problems), just for the convenience of those who according to many posters here have no problems with money., and of course to maximise the profits of TOCS a d banks. It just 'aint gonna happen even with the current lurch to the right that the UK is suffering from.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Budgeting is easier if you can see exactly where every £ was spent rather than thinking 'I wonder where that £100 I drew out last week went?'

Indeed. Since I switched to Monzo, the level of control I have over my finances and where the money goes has improved many-fold. And I don't even use all its capabilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So now the proposition is to force those who just about manage their resources responsibly to acquire a smartphone (which in the case of some elderly people or those with other learning issues may cause yet more problems), just for the convenience of those who according to many posters here have no problems with money., and of course to maximise the profits of TOCS a d banks. It just 'aint gonna happen even with the current lurch to the right that the UK is suffering from.

It's getting a bit more general than the thread, but my fundamental belief is that in public services generally we should cater for "can'ts" i.e. disabilities, but not "won'ts" i.e. people who simply won't countenance using IT. It would be cheaper to provide free devices and Internet access to those needing them along with suitable training than continuing with the old way, and I very much support that approach.

I would sort of agree that right-wing "Boomer driven" populism makes that less likely, though eventually the "Boomers" will all die off (they are in their 70s now) and things move on - if anything the right wing line will then be "if they don't use a smartphone stuff them".

 

[AM9]

Indeed. Since I switched to Monzo, the level of control I have over my finances and where the money goes has improved many-fold. And I don't even use all its capabilities.

That's your choice, - many wouldn't want to do that and nor should they be forced to do it in the pursuit of profit by a commercial organisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's your choice, - many wouldn't want to do that and nor should they be forced to do it in the pursuit of profit by a commercial organisation.

I disagree. Cash is an almighty nuisance and drives crime. Get rid.

 

[Dai Corner]

That's your choice, - many wouldn't want to do that and nor should they be forced to do it in the pursuit of profit by a commercial organisation.

In the case of the railway, surely its minimising the Government subsidy (or getting the best value from the subsidy available) rather than maximising anybody's profit?

 

[AM9]

It's getting a bit more general than the thread, but my fundamental belief is that in public services generally we should cater for "can'ts" i.e. disabilities, but not "won'ts" i.e. people who simply won't countenance using IT. It would be cheaper to provide free devices and Internet access to those needing them along with suitable training than continuing with the old way, and I very much support that approach.

I would sort of agree that right-wing "Boomer driven" populism makes that less likely, though eventually the "Boomers" will all die off (they are in their 70s now) and things move on - if anything the right wing line will then be "if they don't use a smartphone stuff them".

There are plenty from the various 'letter' generations since then whose personal finances are in a perpetual parlous state because of the greed of the commercial world of which plastic money is a major enabler. Meanwhile the rest of the country is content to pass scorn on them because 'they' are managing fine.