Paying only when challenged – cash vs card

[Bletchleyite]

A permit to travel isn't the same as a promise to pay, but there are similarities. I don't know if any companies still have them and actually keep them in working order.

What I do wonder, though, is if any legislation covering PERTIS (is there any?) would also apply to Promise to Pay? It is indeed not quite the same thing, but would be used in similar circumstances - typically they are turned on when the ticket office is closed and accompanied these days with a card only TVM (years ago they would probably be accompanied by a cash only TVM if anything, and it's card payers who would need to pay on board having chucked 5p in!)

FWIW, following in my father's habits as a retired banker, once I was old enough to get a payment card (16 I think) I have very rarely, if ever, paid cash for a train ticket. I prefer to use a TVM than a person anyway, a TVM doesn't argue. Though having obtained a new phone with a rather better battery life than my old one I am making far more use of e-tickets than I used to.

(An interesting question is if with a phone in my pocket with several TOC apps plus the Trainline app on it I have an opportunity to pay at any station where there is a signal?)

 

[xotGD]

I don't understand what you mean; a promise to pay is only available from machines that do not accept cash; the holder of such a promise to pay is promising to pay in cash. I don't understand what your 'second' point means.

They are not promising to do anything. They just have a piece of card stating where they boarded the train. What they do next depends on a combination of their honesty, whether their destination station has barriers and whether or not they encounter a member of staff on their journey.

 

[Hadders]

It shouldn’t matter what their preference is! The fact is if they have the means & the method I.e a valid bank card & a working TVM then that should be used.

I imagine if the TVM was cash only and not accepting cards, it would be amazing to see how swiftly some people would suddenly prefer paying by card!

How do you establish whether someone hasn’t a card on their person? Are you proposing that passengers are searched?

I carry a company credit card, it has my name on the front of it and no reference to my employer (as is required by banking law) but I am not allowed to use it for personal use. How is that going to work?

 

[yorkie]

They are not promising to do anything. They just have a piece of card stating where they boarded the train. What they do next depends on a combination of their honesty, whether their destination station has barriers and whether or not they encounter a member of staff on their journey.

They are entitled to board the train if the origin station doesn't take cash, unless you get the rules changed to cease cash being a valid payment method.

Whether or not evidence of this entitlement is held, in the form of a Promise to Pay, is irrelevant to the facts.

This thread is really about an unwillingness by some to accept the current position that cash is a valid payment method (to the surprising extent that one person was prepared to compare cash to bitcoins); if the three or four of you who want this change decide to lobby your MPs, the DfT, or anyone else, that's entirely your choice.

But until you succeed in changing the rules, people are entitled to do exactly what Northern say, as I quoted above, and pay by cash, if they wish to do so.

 

[FGW_DID]

How do you establish whether someone hasn’t a card on their person? Are you proposing that passengers are searched?

I carry a company credit card, it has my name on the front of it and no reference to my employer (as is required by banking law) but I am not allowed to use it for personal use. How is that going to work?

That’s a ridiculous suggestion! It all boils down to the person’s integrity as mentioned above at post #62

What they do next depends on a combination of their honesty, whether their destination station has barriers and whether or not they encounter a member of staff on their journey.

As for your company credit card, that’s irrelevant as you can’t use it for personal use.
We are talking here about people’s personal bank cards.

I don’t see why any person with a bit of honesty and integrity about them, even if they prefer using cash, wouldn’t buy a ticket from a working TVM with a bank card!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not promising to do anything. They just have a piece of card stating where they boarded the train. What they do next depends on a combination of their honesty, whether their destination station has barriers and whether or not they encounter a member of staff on their journey.

That is I suppose an advantage of them (as per PERTIS) - they provide evidence of where you boarded, so short-faring is avoided.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I carry a company credit card, it has my name on the front of it and no reference to my employer (as is required by banking law) but I am not allowed to use it for personal use. How is that going to work?

Unless they have been a victim of theft very recently, is there even one single person in the world who has a well-enough-paid job to be walking around with a corporate credit card in their wallet but do not themselves have even a basic "online only" debit card?

This forum (as uk.railway did) does seem to like inventing ever less plausible niche situations that barely if ever exist in the real world.

 

[yorkie]

That’s a ridiculous suggestion! It all boils down to the person’s integrity as mentioned above at post #62

The fact you say it's "ridiculous" demonstrates that a suggestion that cash be acceptable as a payment method only if a customer does not hold a personal bank card is not viable as any sort of law or rule.

As for your company credit card, that’s irrelevant as you can’t use it for personal use.
We are talking here about people’s personal bank cards.

I don’t see why any person with a bit of honesty and integrity about them, even if they prefer using cash, wouldn’t buy a ticket from a working TVM with a bank card!

How can someone who complies lawfully and in compliance wuth Northern's instructions be considered not to not have "integrity"?

Unless they have been a victim of theft very recently, is there even one single person in the world who has a well-enough-paid job to be walking around with a corporate credit card in their wallet but do not themselves have even a basic "online only" debit card?

This forum (as uk.railway did) does seem to like inventing ever less plausible niche situations that barely if ever exist in the real world.

Thus forum has no such desire. We are talking about four people so far out of a regular user base of over a thousand times that much. You're going to get a huge range of views. But a few people repeating the same idea or proposal doesn't mean 'the forum' has such a view

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact you say it's "ridiculous" demonstrates that a suggestion that cash be acceptable as a payment method only if a customer does not hold a personal bank card is not viable as any sort of law or rule.

Even if it was it's practically unenforceable as railway staff do not have the right of search, so "I don't have a card" has to be accepted at face value unless they pull one out and wave it around.

However, a change to policy regarding which methods of payment are accepted where (as per London Buses) is entirely feasible and would solve this issue in a stroke. Those without bank accounts needing to travel would obtain pre-paid debit cards or season tickets[1], and the railway's revenue job would be made a whole lot easier.

[1] As a kid travelling to school I had one, but it amazed me how many other kids were just buying singles for cash - or more often not buying them and spending it in the station sweet shop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thus forum has no such desire. We are talking about four people so far out of a regular user base of over a thousand times that much. You're going to get a huge range of views. But a few people repeating the same idea or proposal doesn't mean 'the forum' has such a view

Sorry, I should more have said "a number of people on this forum" - the Forum itself (as an organisation) obviously does not hold that view.

 

[yorkie]

Even if it was it's practically unenforceable as railway staff do not have the right of search, so "I don't have a card" has to be accepted at face value unless they pull one out and wave it around.

However, a change to policy regarding which methods of payment are accepted where (as per London Buses) is entirely feasible and would solve this issue in a stroke. Those without bank accounts needing to travel would obtain pre-paid debit cards, and the railway's revenue job would be made a whole lot easier.

And we are also back round to the consideration that if someone has a card, how could the rail company seek to identify the funds available on that card? It's not viable for anyone to suggest there could be a rule that allows cash but only if a card isn't held or only if the account has sufficient balance, or whatever else is proposed.

 

[FGW_DID]

This thread is really about an unwillingness by some to accept the current position that cash is a valid payment method (to the surprising extent that one person was prepared to compare cash to bitcoins)

where is the unwillingness to accept that cash is valid. As for Bitcoins, I know it’s not a valid option on the railways, it was a very flippant “what ever next” especially as it’s about people’s “preference” as to which form of currency they prefer.

The crux of the matter is that it’s down to the honesty and integrity of the person as to what they do when they get to the Railway Station! But hey if people are happy to accept or advocate ‘pay when challenged’ then that’s down to them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And we are also back round to the consideration that if someone has a card, how could the rail company seek to identify the funds available on that card? It's not viable for anyone to suggest there could be a rule that allows cash but only if a card isn't held or only if the account has sufficient balance, or whatever else is proposed.

I'm suggesting that the published accepted method of payment should include cash only at staffed ticket windows during their hours of opening, at other times and at other locations including on-board only card would be accepted. London Buses has managed to do this, and I bet more people paid cash on buses than do for train journeys.

OK, there's Oyster, but there are also lots of pre-paid debit cards available. I doubt they'd have bothered with Oyster PAYG if that system was being set up from scratch now rather than 15-20 years ago.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm suggesting that the published accepted method of payment should include cash only at staffed ticket windows during their hours of opening, at other times and at other locations including on-board only card would be accepted. London Buses has managed to do this, and I bet more people paid cash on buses than do for train journeys.

OK, there's Oyster, but there are also lots of pre-paid debit cards available. I doubt they'd have bothered with Oyster PAYG if that system was being set up from scratch now rather than 15-20 years ago.

Maybe the ticket offices could sell and top up pre-paid debit cards?

 

[CrispyUK]

I think that London is a very different environment, and the availability of Oyster PAYG is quite an important factor in making it acceptable to remove cash as a payment method. There are loads of places in London to purchase and/or top-up an Oyster card with cash in London.

Elsewhere you don’t have Oyster, so if someone isn’t equipped in advance with a pre-paid debit card, how can they travel from an unstaffed station? Those who genuinely prefer cash are less likely to have internet access to apply for and manage one online, giving them fewer options to acquire such a card, and I suspect those that can be applied for/topped up on the high street have more in the way of fees. I believe only a single top-up gift card variety of these can be purchased/immediately obtained on the high street.

There are many social arguments for keeping cash available as a payment method, even though the cost of doing so increases as the balance shifts to electronic payments. For some people cash is more accessible, easier to use and offers a certain level of privacy. Over time this will change, as people grow up on contactless payments and apps that feels normal to them, but for some of the older generation, paying with plastic is an alien concept.

 

[Starmill]

This is absolutely ludicrous! If you have a valid bank card, then use it at the TVM! Whatever next? “Sorry I don’t want to pay in cash or use my bank card, I want to use Bitcoins!”
Some people on this forum’s attitudes towards buying tickets and paying for travel is certainly at the very least, morally dubious and for some almost borders on incitement to Fare Evasion!

It shouldn’t matter what their preference is! The fact is if they have the means & the method I.e a valid bank card & a working TVM then that should be used.

I imagine if the TVM was cash only and not accepting cards, it would be amazing to see how swiftly some people would suddenly prefer paying by card!

Ok thanks for your opinion

 

[Starmill]

They are not promising to do anything. They just have a piece of card stating where they boarded the train. What they do next depends on a combination of their honesty, whether their destination station has barriers and whether or not they encounter a member of staff on their journey.

I don't understand how that's different from what @yorkie said

 

[yorkie]

where is the unwillingness to accept that cash is valid. As for Bitcoins, I know it’s not a valid option on the railways, it was a very flippant “what ever next” especially as it’s about people’s “preference” as to which form of currency they prefer.

I think you misunderstand; did you read what I quoted from Northern's website? are you disagreeing with people who comply with that statement?

The crux of the matter is that it’s down to the honesty and integrity of the person as to what they do when they get to the Railway Station! But hey if people are happy to accept or advocate ‘pay when challenged’ then that’s down to them!

I do not see how someone who follows the instructions issued by Northern can be considered by you to be doing something wrong?

I think that London is a very different environment...

I agree. London buses are not really a suitable analogy or comparison for Northern rail services over an exponentially greater geographical area.

I don't understand how that's different from what @yorkie said

Exactly. And the coupon itself is largely an irrelevance; it's evidence of the circumstances.

What some people appear to be unhappy with, is the statement on Northern's website, which is a statement of the current legal and contractual position.

So those people can write to their MPs and lobby for whatever it is they are trying to achieve, but until they get the conditions and laws changed, they have to accept the following statement.

https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/policy/2019-01/Northern_Customer_Promise.pdf

If the ticket machine at the station is card only and you wish to use cash, then you should obtain a promise to pay ticket from the machine and pay at the first available opportunity.

I realise some people are deeply unhappy that people can choose to pay with cash but until they are successful in changing the relevant conditions and laws, I don't really see there is anything more to debate that hasn't already been discussed.

 

[FGW_DID]

I think you misunderstand; did you read what I quoted from Northern's website? are you disagreeing with people who comply with that statement?

I did and I did mention further back that that’s fine as it Northern’s policy but your obsession with Northern and their “promise to pay” is somewhat muddying the waters!

Islands OP was this hypothetical journey being made by a person with cash and a valid bank card:

The passenger arrives at (say) Stone Crossing railway station desirous of travelling to Northfleet. The station is unbarriered and unstaffed, and the ticket vending machine is in full working order. It accepts only card payments, as do a number of ticket machines on that line.

Does the passenger commit an offence by joining his train to Northfleet without a ticket, because he wishes to pay cash rather than use his card? He is of course happy to pay for his fare in cash at the first opportunity, but the destination station is also unstaffed and the line is DOO.

it doesn’t mention anything about permits to travel or promises to pay schemes.

 

[Starmill]

I did and I did mention further back that that’s fine as it Northern’s policy but your obsession with Northern and their “promise to pay” is somewhat muddying the waters!

Islands OP was this hypothetical journey being made by a person with cash and a valid bank card:


it doesn’t mention anything about permits to travel or promises to pay schemes.

So you deny that the schemes are in use at locations other than Stone Crossing? What has been said that's incorrect?

 

[Hadders]

The fact you say it's "ridiculous" demonstrates that a suggestion that cash be acceptable as a payment method only if a customer does not hold a personal bank card is not viable as any sort of law or rule.


How can someone who complies lawfully and in compliance wuth Northern's instructions be considered not to not have "integrity"?


Thus forum has no such desire. We are talking about four people so far out of a regular user base of over a thousand times that much. You're going to get a huge range of views. But a few people repeating the same idea or proposal doesn't mean 'the forum' has such a view

Personally I have no desire to buy rail tickets using cash.

You talk about personal integrity, which although I’m inclined to agree, I have to tell you that the reality is far different from an ideal world. If everyone behaves with integrity then we’d have no theft from shops (trust me there’s loads from customers and staff).

With the best will in the world you need rules that can be enforced when it comes to this sort of thing. Relying on integrity isn’t going to cut it. If the railway accepts cash, it accepts cash. End of. It’s the customers choice in which method of payment they use.

If the railway wishes to stop acvespting cash (and I can see many arguments for them doing so) then they need to get the rules changed, and ensure appropriate measures are in place for the vulnerable and people who cannot use cashless payment.

 

[FGW_DID]

So you deny that the schemes are in use at locations other than Stone Crossing?

WTF are you on about? I’m not denying anything of the sort.

What has this got to do with the question posed by the OP?

 

[Starmill]

WTF are you on about? I’m not denying anything of the sort.

What has this got to do with the question posed by the OP?

Because those schemes are in use around the country, and they affect the hypothetical situation posed.

As a reason to pretend that you're outraged about something this isn't a good one.

 

[yorkie]

I did and I did mention further back that that’s fine as it Northern’s policy but your obsession with Northern and their “promise to pay” is somewhat muddying the waters!

Islands OP was this hypothetical journey being made by a person with cash and a valid bank card:


it doesn’t mention anything about permits to travel or promises to pay schemes.

I'm confused; have you read the thread?

If a person wishes to pay with cash, and there is no cash facility at their origin station, they are entitled to board the train without a ticket.

Talk of permits to travel and promises to pay are largely irrelevant; these coupons are issued at some locations as evidence of the starting station and that the customer wishes to pay with cash; these facilities are not available at the vast majority of stations, so the customer simply boards the train.

If you wish to change the rules, by all means lobby your MP, the DfT and anyone else, for that change to happen if you wish. But until then, the rules are as described above.

With the best will in the world you need rules that can be enforced when it comes to this sort of thing. Relying on integrity isn’t going to cut it. If the railway accepts cash, it accepts cash. End of. It’s the customers choice in which method of payment they use.

If the railway wishes to stop accepting cash (and I can see many arguments for them doing so) then they need to get the rules changed, and ensure appropriate measures are in place for the vulnerable and people who cannot use cashless payment.

Agreed.

I did and I did mention further back that that’s fine as it Northern’s policy but your obsession with Northern and their “promise to pay” is somewhat muddying the waters!

How is it my obsession?

Did I bring the subject up?

On the contrary, I've pointed out that a promise to pay is largely an irrelevance and is merely evidence of an entitlement that already exists.

I can only come to the conclusion you have not read the thread and have only read selected parts, which is unfortunate as you appear to have missed the most relevant parts!

 

[FGW_DID]

Of course I have read the thread, it would also appear I’m one of the few to have read the OP!

it wasn’t me who kept banging on about promise to pay / permits to travel but suddenly they’re irrelevant.

Well, the rules need to change then, and yes, I know, lobby Dft, your MP etc etc.

I just can’t fathom why a normal human being, who isn’t being “awkward for awkwardness sake” isn’t going to buy a ticket from a machine with a card just because they might prefer using cash!

you know you need a ticket, why not just buy it there and then! Simple really.

 

[AlbertBeale]

TBH, I think they should do this, or at least "Cash is accepted at staffed stations during opening hours only". There are enough alternatives out there now, including some available to all even if e.g. bankrupt or in the country illegally.

Nobody now HAS to use cash. People choose to use it largely out of intertia or because it has been obtained illegally e.g. cash-in-hand work.

There are other reasons for using cash - such as making budgeting easier to manage if you're poor and/or have certain disabilities, and for privacy. (This list is no doubt not exhaustive!)

 

[sheff1]

Nobody now HAS to use cash.

Yes, no one HAS to use Supertram for an occasional journey. They could walk (except when they can't) or try and find a bus which might go in the same direction on which they can use contactless (except when there isn't one) or take a taxi which accepts cards (except when they can't afford the fare).

If they do eventually manage to reach the suburb they want to get do, cold and hungry, they don't HAVE to grab a takeaway from one of the cash-only outlets, they can go without and wait until the next morning when there might be a shop which accepts cards (but don't try the bakers, butchers or greasy spoon as they only accept cash).

We get that you don't want to use cash but many do and there are even some who are quite content to use cashless payment but find that in some locations and circumstances the only alternative to cash is to go without.

Getting back to the railways, whilst TOCs continue to state that they will accept cash they need to have procedures in place to deal with those wanting to use cash ..... or go without. As mentioned before, Scotrail manage it in the Greater Glasgow area. Other TOCs have taken the decision not to.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Unless they have been a victim of theft very recently, is there even one single person in the world who has a well-enough-paid job to be walking around with a corporate credit card in their wallet but do not themselves have even a basic "online only" debit card?

In terms of someone without a debit card that would be usable for an expensive train journey, whilst holding a "corporate" credit card, I can certainly think of someone I know! So that's at least one single person...

 

[sheff1]

you know you need a ticket, why not just buy it there and then! Simple really.

I am not familiar with the TVM at Stone Crossing, but I have seen many TVMs where it is anything but simple to buy a ticket, even assuming the ticket you want is actually sold by the TVM - which is certainly not a given !

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of someone without a debit card that would be usable for an expensive train journey, whilst holding a "corporate" credit card, I can certainly think of someone I know! So that's at least one single person...

What do you mean by "that would be usable for an expensive train journey"?

Is he someone who draws his whole salary in cash at the start of the month? That is a choice. If you can have the cash, you can leave it in the bank and pay by debit card.