EMR Electrics - are 360s the right option?

[edwin_m]

I meant longer trains (unless all trains were already going to be 12 coaches, in which case I'll stand corrected).

Spoiler

If I could and had the power to do so, I'd reopen the Moorgate branch but that's for another threrad!

Pretty sure the Moorgate branch was 8-car maximum anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Pretty sure the Moorgate branch was 8-car maximum anyway.

Yes, and wasn’t Barbican shorter, and was only available to up trains because the down platform was below width standards?

 

[Helvellyn]

Regards prices I think the issue is that Wellingborough looks to only have Class 360s from next December, with two trains per hour. Going North services will only serve Kettering and Corby, so changes at Kettering required (and again at Leicester for Derby/Chesterfield/Sheffield). 110mph service to St Pancras is planned, so coupled with the better acceleration of the 360s this should mitigate against the fact services will stop at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport. First Class will have no catering (I can't see three trolleys on each 12-car 360), which given some morning services operated by a HST have an inclusive full cooked breakfast is another downgrade.

Current Annual Season prices to London Terminals (Standard Class):

• Corby (xx miles) - £8,344
• Kettering (71 miles) - £7,232
• Wellingborough (65 miles) - £6,500
• Bedford (xx miles) - £4,836
• Northampton (xx miles) - £5,780
• Huntingdon (58 miles) - £5,452
• Peterborough (76 miles) - £6,748 (GTR only) / £8,000 (Any Permitted)

At the very least it would be nice if EMR applied to have Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby added to the Annual Gold Card are but that is unlikely.

 

[Mordac]

Dunno, but the same thing that happens with a 12-car 319 set on LNR, whatever that is. (All the 319s on LNR now operate in permanent 12 car sets with one driver and one guard).

Not the one on the St. Albans branch, surely?

 

[A0]

Regards prices I think the issue is that Wellingborough looks to only have Class 360s from next December, with two trains per hour. Going North services will only serve Kettering and Corby, so changes at Kettering required (and again at Leicester for Derby/Chesterfield/Sheffield). 110mph service to St Pancras is planned, so coupled with the better acceleration of the 360s this should mitigate against the fact services will stop at Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport. First Class will have no catering (I can't see three trolleys on each 12-car 360), which given some morning services operated by a HST have an inclusive full cooked breakfast is another downgrade.

Current Annual Season prices to London Terminals (Standard Class):

• Corby (xx miles) - £8,344
• Kettering (71 miles) - £7,232
• Wellingborough (65 miles) - £6,500
• Bedford (xx miles) - £4,836
• Northampton (xx miles) - £5,780
• Huntingdon (58 miles) - £5,452
• Peterborough (76 miles) - £6,748 (GTR only) / £8,000 (Any Permitted)

At the very least it would be nice if EMR applied to have Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby added to the Annual Gold Card are but that is unlikely.

The price discrepancy is a hangover from BR days - when the wires stopped at Bedford the stations north of that were assigned to Inter City and the fares reflected that. This persisted when NSE was formed and Bedford was the northern boundary. There really is no justification for the disparity of cost - in fact from Wellingborough it's cheaper to buy a return to Bedford and buy a Travelcard from Bedford.

 

[RailWonderer]

If 720s are delayed what happens loss of 360s and who will cover the 360s?

For the GA thread I know, but in an ideal world that’s 379s covering for 360s would happen. In reality no GE drivers are trained on 379s, so with 360s gone in August and likely no 720s in service by then, we’ll have short formed 321s full and standing in high peaks and shoulder peaks. Grim days ahead I know.

 

[Journeyman]

Sure. I thought it interesting that DfT have seemingly agreed to change them to 2+2 standard and larger 2+1 first class areas. Meanwhile in my own area all the long distance fleet, ie 444 and 159, is being changed from 2+1 to 2+2 in first.

The Stagecoach bid for EMR proposed 2+2 first class across the whole franchise.

 

[Journeyman]

Why could we not have Class 801's? The citizens of Wellingborough are paying IC prices to get a service with 3+2 seating and no on-board catering facilities.

The DfT insisted on a separate all electric fleet for Corby services.

 

[edwin_m]

The DfT insisted on a separate all electric fleet for Corby services.

The lease and operating cost difference between 21 second-hand EMUs and a similar number of new bi-modes would be significant too. And as Hitachi has a full order book they probably wouldn't be available in time.

 

[hwl]

The lease and operating cost difference between 21 second-hand EMUs and a similar number of new bi-modes would be significant too. And as Hitachi has a full order book they probably wouldn't be available in time.

As I previously noted several pages ago the new stock cost difference would be circa 400k per car (and you only have 4.5 cars worth of passenger area in a 5 car AT300 family unit so even worse on a per seat basis). then there is the advantage of 2nd hand stock looking of a new home as well.
Angel* also seem keen to do deals with TOCs especially after managing to cut their financing costs in the last 2 years.

Hence likely to be a big cost advantage for 360s. Given overall EM franchise subsidy levels Corby will get better service for not much more cost wise than today and it also probably allows more to be spent on regional and a little less on expensive 804s capacity for IC.

*Lots of Abellio / EMRs stock plans involve Angel

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Stagecoach bid for EMR proposed 2+2 first class across the whole franchise.

Really? Crikey. That would have been the end of IC there, then - or they'd have made Standard really bad.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure that someone can answer this, but it puzzles me. If the 12 car 360s operate with just one guard, and someone uses the alarm in a disabled toilet in one of the sets that the guard is NOT in - what happens?

No idea - but it will be no different than a 319 x 12 car train on LM or any number of non corridor combos on Northern.

 

[37057]

No idea - but it will be no different than a 319 x 12 car train on LM or any number of non corridor combos on Northern.

Also no idea for sure but the toilet comms do not apply brakes and is only there as a 'Call for Aid' with talk facilities (the location displays on the drivers comms control panel) so I imagine the situation can be dealt with verbally or if the person is in distress stop at a safe location and deal with it.

 

[James321]

If 720s are delayed means class 321s to cover the loss 360s?

 

[Journeyman]

Really? Crikey. That would have been the end of IC there, then - or they'd have made Standard really bad.

I know, it's a pretty ghastly downgrade. I think SWR were cheeky in doing it, but for a proper IC TOC, that's a really serious downgrade that I'd consider unacceptable.

 

[DarloRich]

The Stagecoach bid for EMR proposed 2+2 first class across the whole franchise.

OMG how absolutely awful! Meanwhile in cattle class the worlds smallest violin is being played or it would be if we had the space...................

 

[Class 170101]

I'm sure that someone can answer this, but it puzzles me. If the 12 car 360s operate with just one guard, and someone uses the alarm in a disabled toilet in one of the sets that the guard is NOT in - what happens? My colleague who was a guards' inspector for ATW says that they stopped and the guard climbed down and walked to the other set - but doing this between St Pancras & Bedford might have greater delay consequences than on the Cambrian.

People have to wait until the train reaches a station that happens now even with DOO 12 car trains but there is no guarantee they have the tools to extract them and they may have to wait for an engineer.

Yes - Moorgate's never going to happen - but here's a different suggestion, what about linking the MML to Old Oak Common via the Dudding Hill line? Upgrade and wire Dudding Hill and run 2 further Corby's into Old Oak Common would provide far better connectivity to west London than the alternatives offer.

Don't hold your breath, wiring and resignalling Dudding Hill was being talked about 20 years ago to my knowledge, obviously it's silly to rush decisions though

It won't be via extra MML services but by TfL running a service - various schemes are being discussed at TfL, see their website. They have also been discussed elsewhere on this board.

If 720s are delayed what happens loss of 360s and who will cover the 360s?

Some Class 321/9s and Class 322s might become available by then from Northern. One would also hope that Class 321 running to / from Norwich (except 17:02/19:30) would have ceased by then and those units be available too.

 

[37057]

People have to wait until the train reaches a station that happens now even with DOO 12 car trains but there is no guarantee they have the tools to extract them and they may have to wait for an engineer.

For situations involving people locked in universal toilets, the door control can be turned off allowing the door to be manually opened.

For standard toilets (185s at least) should have a scraper stowed in the emergency cupboard that can be used to unlatch the lock. How effective it is I don't know but I've seen doors that have needed the pry bar!

 

[Aictos]

For situations involving people locked in universal toilets, the door control can be turned off allowing the door to be manually opened.

With regards to Class 700s, the accessible toilet door override switch has three positions with one being manual meaning when someone is trapped you can get them out.

 

[pompeyfan]

Doesn’t always work though, HFRS turned up to fleet recently to get someone out of a 450 accessible toilet.

 

[A0]

With regards to Class 700s, the accessible toilet door override switch has three positions with one being manual meaning when someone is trapped you can get them out.

But presumably for all of these, it would be done when the train was stationary not on the move ?

And if a passenger was distressed it would surely be better / safer to get the train to the nearest station where emergency services can more easily access the train ? For the current Corby services the time between stations is as follows:

Corby - Kettering 9 mins
Kettering - Wellingborough 9 mins
Wellingborough - Bedford 13 mins
Bedford - Luton 15 mins
Luton - London circa 25 mins.

Obviously south of Bedford there would be the option of being held at one of the other intermediate stations which EMR don't serve.

 

[ExRes]

I know, it's a pretty ghastly downgrade. I think SWR were cheeky in doing it, but for a proper IC TOC, that's a really serious downgrade that I'd consider unacceptable.

I personally don't see the Corby service as intercity, it will be nothing more than a commuter route and should be treated as such including the unlikely adjustment of fares

 

[Journeyman]

I personally don't see the Corby service as intercity, it will be nothing more than a commuter route and should be treated as such including the unlikely adjustment of fares

I think you've got your wires crossed. I like the plans Abellio has. I was talking about Stagecoach, who if they'd won the EMT franchise were planning to use 2+2 first class seating on ALL services, including the InterCity ones.

 

[ExRes]

I think you've got your wires crossed. I like the plans Abellio has. I was talking about Stagecoach, who if they'd won the EMT franchise were planning to use 2+2 first class seating on ALL services, including the InterCity ones.

My apologies, I only visit MML threads now and again as a partially interested ex MML/EMT employee, not as a user of the services, I'd got the impression that people were expecting the Corby to be an IC rather than a commuter service

 

[edwin_m]

You might even find the 360s are more comfortable than the bi-modes. Compare the XC Turbostars vs Voyagers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

...
Some Class 321/9s and Class 322s might become available by then from Northern. One would also hope that Class 321 running to / from Norwich (except 17:02/19:30) would have ceased by then and those units be available too.

The 321/9s would be fun if they ended up on a Norwich service... according to the old(er) hands at Neville Hill they've never been quite right since Intercity borrowed them after the Sandy derailment, they didn't like being thrashed up the ECML one bit!

 

[Aictos]

But presumably for all of these, it would be done when the train was stationary not on the move ?

And if a passenger was distressed it would surely be better / safer to get the train to the nearest station where emergency services can more easily access the train ? For the current Corby services the time between stations is as follows:

Corby - Kettering 9 mins
Kettering - Wellingborough 9 mins
Wellingborough - Bedford 13 mins
Bedford - Luton 15 mins
Luton - London circa 25 mins.

Obviously south of Bedford there would be the option of being held at one of the other intermediate stations which EMR don't serve.

On the Class 700s, it doesn’t matter if the train is in motion or at a stand at a platform however if you’ve got a Onboard Supervisor on the service you can assist someone who’s trapped while the train is in motion but if the only staff member is a driver then obviously it’s a case of wait until you get to a platform that can take the full length of the train.

Not sure if it’s allowed to stop out of course with a a train longer then platform?