EMR Electrics - are 360s the right option?

[InTheEastMids]

Market Harborough.

No, I don't get it. Yes, it is utterly stupid.

It's basically the furthest South they could stop without a cable in a trough from the substation that is needed to power the new 80x trains

 

[dk1]

They're the same service - 2tph semi fast to Corby. There is no proposal for an airport express.

Exactly. That's the point I was making. Clever timetabling move. Obviously no chance of anything dedicated here.

 

[thatapanydude]

Why could we not have Class 801's? The citizens of Wellingborough are paying IC prices to get a service with 3+2 seating and no on-board catering facilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why could we not have Class 801's?

For the same reason as we don't have Class 801s running to Northampton, which is a similar distance out. It's not IC, it's a semifast outersuburban commuter/regional express.

What's the point in catering for such a short journey? Grab a coffee before you get on.

The citizens of Wellingborough are paying IC prices to get a service with 3+2 seating and no on-board catering facilities.

The trains are being refurbished to 2+2 Standard/2+1 First. They won't be 3+2 for long, and it is better to get them out there than short-form things.

 

[dk1]

The trains are being refurbished to 2+2 Standard/2+1 First. They won't be 3+2 for long, and it is better to get them out there than short-form things.

Beat me to it.

 

[thatapanydude]

For the same reason as we don't have Class 801s running to Northampton, which is a similar distance out. It's not IC, it's a semifast outersuburban commuter/regional express.

What's the point in catering for such a short journey? Grab a coffee before you get on.



The trains are being refurbished to 2+2 Standard/2+1 First. They won't be 3+2 for long, and it is better to get them out there than short-form things.

But the key point is that Wellingborough's prices are very steep vs other places of a similar distance to London e.g. Northampton and St Neots/Huntingdon and for that premium we should be entitled to a IC style train or have a fare reduction noting the reduction in standards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the key point is that Wellingborough's prices are very steep vs other places of a similar distance to London e.g. Northampton and St Neots/Huntingdon and for that premium we should be entitled to a IC style train or have a fare reduction noting the reduction in standards.

I agree, the fares from Wellingborough (well, Market Ketteringborough generally ) are too high and should be the same as from Northampton as the service will be basically the same - a couple of 2+2 seated Desiros an hour. (OK, 3 from Northampton, but one gets near-overtaken).

 

[Meerkat]

Why is the Northampton price at all relevant?
The price is related to demand, not how far it is. Or if Modal transfer is desired then set the price to fill the trains rather than maximise revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is the Northampton price at all relevant?

Because it's an equivalent service and distance.

The price is related to demand, not how far it is

The difference has nothing to do with demand (which I'd bet is a bit higher at NMP, not least from people driving over from Market Ketteringborough because it's cheaper) and everything to do with the fact that the Anytime and season fares from Northampton are regulated and those from Market Ketteringborough aren't, which is purely a historical accident relating to the fact that Northampton was within the Network Southeast boundary and Market Ketteringborough weren't, and makes no real sense at all.

The fares from Northampton are reasonable - those on the MML for those stations aren't, they are outrageous.

 

[coradiafan2000]

If more of the MML was electrified, I'd have thought 397s would be a good fit, as would 801s.

But as the wires will only be going as far as Market Harborough/ Corby, having 125mph inter City trains seems like overkill. So the 360s will be fine, at least for now.

We can only hope the wires will eventually reach Sheffield, in which case we can upgrade to better EMUs.

 

[Meerkat]

But why should equivalent distances be the same price?
If people are willing to pay the higher Wellingborough prices then they aren’t outrageous. Maybe Northampton prices should be higher......
Anyway this is about to drift off topic into the big and highly disputed topic of “what is, and what should the government be subsiding”

 

[greatvoyager]

If more of the MML was electrified, I'd have thought 397s would be a good fit, as would 801s.

But as the wires will only be going as far as Market Harborough/ Corby, having 125mph inter City trains seems like overkill. So the 360s will be fine, at least for now.

We can only hope the wires will eventually reach Sheffield, in which case we can upgrade to better EMUs.

Won't they just run 804s on electric mode in that case, rather than upgrade?

 

[geoffk]

Is EMR getting just the 21 Greater Anglia sets, or the five ex TfL Rail as well?

 

[Energy]

Is EMR getting just the 21 Greater Anglia sets, or the five ex TfL Rail as well?

Only GA ones.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Won't they just run 804s on electric mode in that case, rather than upgrade?

To be honest I kind of forgot they existed! Or will exist anyway.

This is probably going to sound strange but I hope more inter City stock other than the 80x family will be ordered soon. Everyone seems to be ordering them, I wouldn't be surprised if the new west coast franchise will order some too. I like a bit of diversity, I think it gives TOCs more of an identity, and I don't want to look at 80xs everywhere I go! That's why I mentioned 397s, as they're the only other brand new high speed EMU available.

Sorry if that was irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Only GA ones.

I also thought that the TfL ones were going to EMR. Do we know what's gonna happen with them?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But why should equivalent distances be the same price?
If people are willing to pay the higher Wellingborough prices then they aren’t outrageous. Maybe Northampton prices should be higher......
Anyway this is about to drift off topic into the big and highly disputed topic of “what is, and what should the government be subsiding”

The reason for the differential between Market Harborough and Northampton probably goes back to sectorisation. Northampton was NSE, so was priced for everyday commuters; whilst Harborough was Intercity and priced accordingly.

Given that the service has technically been downgraded, a fares freeze or reduction should be considered IMO.

 

[greatvoyager]

To be honest I kind of forgot they existed! Or will exist anyway.

This is probably going to sound strange but I hope more inter City stock other than the 80x family will be ordered soon. Everyone seems to be ordering them, I wouldn't be surprised if the new west coast franchise will order some too. I like a bit of diversity, I think it gives TOCs more of an identity, and I don't want to look at 80xs everywhere I go! That's why I mentioned 397s, as they're the only other brand new high speed EMU available.

Sorry if that was irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

I have to agree, we're heading for an 80x dominated railway.

 

[hexagon789]

460s gained front end gangways when converted into 458/5.

In theory, I imagine that you could possibly put a 350 style gangway on the front of a 360 but it is not going to happen.

Ah, I'd thought they were formed into the middle of 458s with the driving cars left spare.

But anyway, as you say - it's unlikely to happen.

 

[hexagon789]

The timetable consultation says "over 600 seats per train" which gives an impression of seating density. I think this refers to a 12- car formation.

According to the internet (!), A Cl379 has 209 seats and a TPE 350/4 has 205 seats so this gives an idea of the density I think can be expected.

Either way, it's more capacity than a four-car 222!

 

[Malcolmffc]

I have to agree, we're heading for an 80x dominated railway.

Surely it’s good to have a common stock in use throughout the industry? Allows economy of scale and consistency etc and makes future transfers easier.

You could make an argument for the industry being HST-dominated 20 years ago...

 

[greatvoyager]

Surely it’s good to have a common stock in use throughout the industry? Allows economy of scale and consistency etc and makes future transfers easier.

You could make an argument for the industry being HST-dominated 20 years ago...

But there are going to be even more 80x units than HSTs, as they are also replacing 225s as well as 180s, 185s and 222s. 80x units may be good trains for some, but there are people who will avoid them at all costs.

 

[43096]

Ah, I'd thought they were formed into the middle of 458s with the driving cars left spare.

The 8 x 8-car 460s were split up, with 30 middle cars inserted into each of 458001-030. That left 18 middle cars that were used to create 6 extra sets (468531-536) using 12 driving cars that had gangways fitted. The remaining four driving cars were stripped for spares and scrapped.

 

[hwl]

But the key point is that Wellingborough's prices are very steep vs other places of a similar distance to London e.g. Northampton and St Neots/Huntingdon and for that premium we should be entitled to a IC style train or have a fare reduction noting the reduction in standards.

801 costs about 400k per car more than new 100/110max mph EMUs. They also have end doors which aren't good for dwell time on what is a stopping service north of Bedford and also the luggage and dwell time issues Luton Airport Parkway.

 

[hwl]

Either way, it's more capacity than a four-car 222!

Yep units designed for 115mph+ waste lots of space...

 

[Bletchleyite]

801 costs about 400k per car more than new 100/110max mph EMUs. They also have end doors which aren't good for dwell time on what is a stopping service north of Bedford and also the luggage and dwell time issues Luton Airport Parkway.

I can think of only one type of unit more suited to this service than 360s, and that's 2+2 seated 350s due to the gangways, to be honest, and those aren't available at the time/cost required. Electrostars have inferior luggage provision so are less suitable.

Apart from legroom (which is easy to resolve by removing about 6 seats per unit and respacing, which would also achieve full window alignment) 350s are more comfortable than 80x anyway

 

[ExRes]

But there are going to be even more 80x units than HSTs, as they are also replacing 225s as well as 180s, 185s and 222s. 80x units may be good trains for some, but there are people who will avoid them at all costs.

Who are the people that will 'avoid them at all costs'? those that want a clean and reliable train service or those that consider themselves part of the 'railway community'? I would suggest that if 80x series sets replaced virtually every other type of train in the country there would be a massive percentage of train users that would be celebrating

 

[dosxuk]

Electrostars have inferior luggage provision so are less suitable.

Surely that's an internal fit out issue, like the conversion from 3+2 to 2+2 than a issue with the overall train?

 

[MatthewRead]

The Class 360s were built for First Great Eastern in 2002/3.
They are due to transfer to EMR for services to Corby out of Kings Cross next year,
But were 360s the right option?
Could 379s be a better option?

Correction St Pancras to Corby not Kings Cross but yes I agree 379's were a better option but I guess others don't agree.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Who are the people that will 'avoid them at all costs'? those that want a clean and reliable train service or those that consider themselves part of the 'railway community'? I would suggest that if 80x series sets replaced virtually every other type of train in the country there would be a massive percentage of train users that would be celebrating

My point about about not wanting to see too many Class 80xs was more from an enthusiast's point of view. I accept that they will ultimately replace all HSTs, but HSTs never operated, say, Transpennine or Hull Trains services (apart from the recent hires to cover for 180s). I concede from a passenger's point of view it's probably brilliant.