EMR Electrics - are 360s the right option?

[swt_passenger]

I also thought that the TfL ones were going to EMR. Do we know what's gonna happen with them?

No we don’t. IIRC the small ex-Heathrow fleet has never been officially mentioned in the EMR context, if you’ve read it anywhere it will only have been a poster’s suggestion...

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely that's an internal fit out issue, like the conversion from 3+2 to 2+2 than a issue with the overall train?

I think Bletchleyite is probably referring to the Electrostar’s overhead racks, which are effectively constrained by the body shape.

 

[ExRes]

My point about about not wanting to see too many Class 80xs was more from an enthusiast's point of view. I accept that they will ultimately replace all HSTs, but HSTs never operated, say, Transpennine or Hull Trains services (apart from the recent hires to cover for 180s). I concede from a passenger's point of view it's probably brilliant.

Not just HSTs I hope, given the option of a standard class only 80x or the current tat that I have to catch every time I want to travel from Paignton to Exeter, I'd have the champagne and flags out for an 80x

 

[ExRes]

Not just HSTs I hope, given the option of a standard class only 80x or the current tat that I have to catch every time I want to travel from Paignton to Exeter, I'd have the champagne and flags out for an 80x

Anyway, my apologies as that's rather getting off thread and I doubt 360s will be visiting Paignton in the near, or distant, future .....

 

[coradiafan2000]

Not just HSTs I hope, given the option of a standard class only 80x or the current tat that I have to catch every time I want to travel from Paignton to Exeter, I'd have the champagne and flags out for an 80x

You always have the option of a Voyager? Although they're somewhat infrequent on that line and I'm one of the few people who actually like those trains. Besides, I should imagine GWR will get new local DMUs soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely that's an internal fit out issue, like the conversion from 3+2 to 2+2 than a issue with the overall train?

It's a bit of both - the tapered body shape and high windows preclude there being very large overheads as found on Desiros and 80x.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Bletchleyite is probably referring to the Electrostar’s overhead racks, which are effectively constrained by the body shape.

I was indeed. They can be made a bit larger (they have been in First Class on ScotRail 170s) but the body shape prevents them being as big as Desiros or 80x in their current position, and the high windows preclude them being moved lower down. (Pendolinos have tapered bodies and large, low racks but only because the windows are tiny).

 

[Mikey C]

It was in the FAQs at the back of the 2020 timetable consultation:
“At the time of writing, we expect a number of our EMR Electrics trains to come into passenger service in their current layout – this includes 3+2 seating and small First Class sections at each end of the train. However, all trains will be significantly refurbished in the following months and when complete, all trains will offer 2+2 seating in standard class and larger First Class sections with 2+1 seating, as well as free WiFi, new seats, real time passenger information, improved air conditioning and power sockets.”
However, although there’s no specific reference to 110 mph mods, they probably wouldn’t get mentioned in that sort of context.

A bit of a shame from the marketing impact though that instead of a "big bang" introduction of nice refurbished electric trains, many will arrive in their current layout. It's not as if the changes will be minor either, it's more or less a completely new interior plus the upgrade to 110mph. I assume it will be a while before the upgrade work is all done, and until all the fleet is upgraded to 110mph the timetable won't be changed?

 

[43096]

No we don’t. IIRC the small ex-Heathrow fleet has never been officially mentioned in the EMR context, if you’ve read it anywhere it will only have been a poster’s suggestion...

Running a 30min interval service to Corby needs six trains. Using 12-car sets means 18 units are needed: add in maintenance cover and you get 21 units required, which exactly matches the 360/1 fleet. So the Heathrow fleet isn’t needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A bit of a shame from the marketing impact though that instead of a "big bang" introduction of nice refurbished electric trains, many will arrive in their current layout. It's not as if the changes will be minor either, it's more or less a completely new interior plus the upgrade to 110mph. I assume it will be a while before the upgrade work is all done, and until all the fleet is upgraded to 110mph the timetable won't be changed?

It is, but it's better than short-forming and the bad publicity that would bring.

 

[bramling]

But the key point is that Wellingborough's prices are very steep vs other places of a similar distance to London e.g. Northampton and St Neots/Huntingdon and for that premium we should be entitled to a IC style train or have a fare reduction noting the reduction in standards.

A half-hourly service of decent 12-car electric trains calling at only a couple of stops to London and with the journey having commenced only two stops back thus meaning plenty of empty seats is a pretty good service IMO.

These trains will likely offer a far superior journey experience to something like a 700 which will be found at Huntingdon, which is a similar journey to London.

I’d say Wellingborough does quite well out of this all things considered. If things had gone like the LM/LNwR franchise it would probably be served by half-hourly 5-car DMU running through from somewhere like Leeds via Wakefield Sheffield Derby and Nottingham, and stuffed full of cheap advance ticket holders long before arrival at Wellingborough. Careful what one wishes for!

 

[hexagon789]

The 8 x 8-car 460s were split up, with 30 middle cars inserted into each of 458001-030. That left 18 middle cars that were used to create 6 extra sets (468531-536) using 12 driving cars that had gangways fitted. The remaining four driving cars were stripped for spares and scrapped.

So it can be done, does it mean it would be for 365s though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say Wellingborough does quite well out of this all things considered. If things had gone like the LM/LNwR franchise it would probably be served by half-hourly 5-car DMU running through from somewhere like Leeds via Wakefield Sheffield Derby and Nottingham, and stuffed full of cheap advance ticket holders long before arrival at Wellingborough. Careful what one wishes for!

Let's be fair to LNR - one thing they have done is near-abolished 4 car running other than where unavoidable (e.g. contra-peak) by coughing up to get the 350/2s out to play.

 

[hexagon789]

Yep units designed for 115mph+ waste lots of space...

At least the four-car units are no longer arranged as they were when introduced.

 

[DarloRich]

If these trains are the same family as the 350's we have on lm then snap thier arms off. I would take these and the 350/2 if I could.

The 350's are really good trains comfortable, reliable, good quality, fast,

I cant believe people are suggesting that 379 types would be good. Avoid.

 

[traji00]

On an unrelated note,
a) would the delays to the Class 720s have any effect on the 360 cascade & refurbishment, or
b) is there a set date for the latter to go off-lease from GA?

 

[class379]

On an unrelated note,
a) would the delays to the Class 720s have any effect on the 360 cascade & refurbishment, or
b) is there a set date for the latter to go off-lease from GA?

I heard August 2020 is the leave date for the 360s.
I doubt the 720s will be ready by then but I reckon the 745s would be.
Could the 745s displace the 379s so they could cover the loss of the 360s when the time comes?

 

[Doomotron]

Talking about the 360s, I expect the Heathrow ones to join the fleet later on; I'm pretty sure there'll be an increase of traffic because of better services, like on the GOBLIN. I don't, however, see 350/2s joining EMR any time soon because of the differences between the fleets (I'd expect them to go to SWR as a 442 replacement).

 

[swt_passenger]

Talking about the 360s, I expect the Heathrow ones to join the fleet later on; I'm pretty sure there'll be an increase of traffic because of better services, like on the GOBLIN.

How do you increase the planned 2 tph 12 car service when EMR are capped at 6 tph into St Pancras, and the wires stop at Corby?

 

[43096]

How do you increase the planned 2 tph 12 car service when EMR are capped at 6 tph into St Pancras, and the wires stop at Corby?

Well, quite!

 

[Aictos]

How do you increase the planned 2 tph 12 car service when EMR are capped at 6 tph into St Pancras, and the wires stop at Corby?

Yes quite but what about Kentish Town, can that not support 1tph? I know there's only so many trains that can fit on the MML but thought I ask anyway.

 

[Doomotron]

How do you increase the planned 2 tph 12 car service when EMR are capped at 6 tph into St Pancras, and the wires stop at Corby?

I meant longer trains (unless all trains were already going to be 12 coaches, in which case I'll stand corrected).

Spoiler

If I could and had the power to do so, I'd reopen the Moorgate branch but that's for another threrad!

 

[swt_passenger]

I meant longer trains (unless all trains were already going to be 12 coaches, in which case I'll stand corrected).

Spoiler

If I could and had the power to do so, I'd reopen the Moorgate branch but that's for another threrad!

It’s physically impossible to reopen the Moorgate branch, as explained numerous times before.

 

[A0]

It’s physically impossible to reopen the Moorgate branch, as explained numerous times before.

Yes - Moorgate's never going to happen - but here's a different suggestion, what about linking the MML to Old Oak Common via the Dudding Hill line? Upgrade and wire Dudding Hill and run 2 further Corby's into Old Oak Common would provide far better connectivity to west London than the alternatives offer.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'm sure that someone can answer this, but it puzzles me. If the 12 car 360s operate with just one guard, and someone uses the alarm in a disabled toilet in one of the sets that the guard is NOT in - what happens? My colleague who was a guards' inspector for ATW says that they stopped and the guard climbed down and walked to the other set - but doing this between St Pancras & Bedford might have greater delay consequences than on the Cambrian.
By the way, I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that a quantity of 110 mph 4 car sets with end gangways will shortly become available. They'll need re seating to 2+2, but so do the 360's. Perhaps Abellio should have a word with, err.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dunno, but the same thing that happens with a 12-car 319 set on LNR, whatever that is. (All the 319s on LNR now operate in permanent 12 car sets with one driver and one guard).

 

[ExRes]

Yes - Moorgate's never going to happen - but here's a different suggestion, what about linking the MML to Old Oak Common via the Dudding Hill line? Upgrade and wire Dudding Hill and run 2 further Corby's into Old Oak Common would provide far better connectivity to west London than the alternatives offer.

Don't hold your breath, wiring and resignalling Dudding Hill was being talked about 20 years ago to my knowledge, obviously it's silly to rush decisions though

 

[James321]

If 720s are delayed what happens loss of 360s and who will cover the 360s?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Dunno, but the same thing that happens with a 12-car 319 set on LNR, whatever that is. (All the 319s on LNR now operate in permanent 12 car sets with one driver and one guard).

Indeed - hadn't thought of that. It's a little odd that, with all the discussion about DOO, effectively 8 of the 12 cars on these trains have no guard, in effect, anyway. (Hope the RMT aren't reading this...)

 

[class379]

If 720s are delayed what happens loss of 360s and who will cover the 360s?

If the 745s are in service by the time the 360s need to leave, I would have thought that the 379s could be displaced to do the 360s duties?