EMR Electrics - are 360s the right option?

[class379]

The Class 360s were built for First Great Eastern in 2002/3.
They are due to transfer to EMR for services to Corby out of Kings Cross next year,
But were 360s the right option?
Could 379s be a better option?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose 379s are already 2+2 seated and they have gangways, other than that there's little to choose between different types of 20m doors at thirds OHLE EMUs. Indeed, one thing in the 360s' favour, with serving Luton Airport Parkway, is the very large overhead racks as compared with the uselessly small ones on Electrostars.

That being the case, and given other things (e.g. cost, availability) yes, they probably were right.

 

[43096]

I suppose 379s are already 2+2 seated and they have gangways, other than that there's little to choose between different types of 20m doors at thirds OHLE EMUs. Indeed, one thing in the 360s' favour, with serving Luton Airport Parkway, is the very large overhead racks as compared with the uselessly small ones on Electrostars.

That being the case, and given other things (e.g. cost, availability) yes, they probably were right.

Cost is the critical factor AIUI. The owner of the 379s still hasn't realised the state of the market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cost is the critical factor AIUI. The owner of the 379s still hasn't realised the state of the market.

A bit like the 350/2s I guess...they really should have stayed with LNR, but the ROSCO called their bluff and lost.

 

[43096]

A bit like the 350/2s I guess...they really should have stayed with LNR, but the ROSCO called their bluff and lost.

Except that the 350/2 decision was earlier and the market was moving rapidly. With the 379s the landscape is much clearer. And much more barren.

 

[class379]

I suppose 379s are already 2+2 seated and they have gangways, other than that there's little to choose between different types of 20m doors at thirds OHLE EMUs. Indeed, one thing in the 360s' favour, with serving Luton Airport Parkway, is the very large overhead racks as compared with the uselessly small ones on Electrostars.

That being the case, and given other things (e.g. cost, availability) yes, they probably were right.

Also the 360s are due to get a good upgrade (so it's said) to include WiFi, tables and obviously a higher top speed.
I reckon they chose the right option because they are well built trains and once refurbished will be even better.
It's interesting too see what others say!

 

[hexagon789]

Also the 360s are due to get a good upgrade (so it's said) to include WiFi, tables and obviously a higher top speed.
I reckon they chose the right option because they are well built trains and once refurbished will be even better.
It's interesting too see what others say!

It also makes use of still fairly new trains that might otherwise struggle to find a home.

 

[Energy]

They seem like the correct option, I wonder if gangways can be fitted?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They seem like the correct option, I wonder if gangways can be fitted?

It'd be nice, but probably not worth the cost.

 

[hexagon789]

They seem like the correct option, I wonder if gangways can be fitted?

I doubt they could be retro-fitted as it would alter the crashworthiness of the front end and that would need re-evaluated adding to the cost. Several trains have had gangways removed and sealed-up, I can't think of one which has had one added on later.

 

[Darandio]

and obviously a higher top speed.

Is that committed to anywhere?

 

[hexagon789]

Is that committed to anywhere?

I'm sure it was confirmed in the EMR new trains thread that the 360s would be uprated to 110mph.

 

[coradiafan2000]

If the 360s are given a decent refurbishment, and made 110mph capable as hexagon789 says, then I have no issues with them running EMR services. They're basically 350s without end gangways, which are generally looked upon favorably (although it is a downside when compared with ,say, 379s).

 

[hexagon789]

If the 360s are given a decent refurbishment, and made 110mph capable as hexagon789 says, then I have no issues with them running EMR services. They're basically 350s without end gangways, which are generally looked upon favorably (although it is a downside when compared with ,say, 379s).

I think the refurbishment is to come later, I think they are entering service, at least initially, as-is internally unless that's changed now?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the refurbishment is to come later, I think they are entering service, at least initially, as-is internally unless that's changed now?

It was in the FAQs at the back of the 2020 timetable consultation:
“At the time of writing, we expect a number of our EMR Electrics trains to come into passenger service in their current layout – this includes 3+2 seating and small First Class sections at each end of the train. However, all trains will be significantly refurbished in the following months and when complete, all trains will offer 2+2 seating in standard class and larger First Class sections with 2+1 seating, as well as free WiFi, new seats, real time passenger information, improved air conditioning and power sockets.”
However, although there’s no specific reference to 110 mph mods, they probably wouldn’t get mentioned in that sort of context.

 

[greatvoyager]

If the 360s are given a decent refurbishment, and made 110mph capable as hexagon789 says, then I have no issues with them running EMR services. They're basically 350s without end gangways, which are generally looked upon favorably (although it is a downside when compared with ,say, 379s).

I think they would be fine for EMR too. They are reliable enough and are at least going to be utilised.

 

[hexagon789]

It was in the FAQs at the back of the 2020 timetable consultation:
“At the time of writing, we expect a number of our EMR Electrics trains to come into passenger service in their current layout – this includes 3+2 seating and small First Class sections at each end of the train. However, all trains will be significantly refurbished in the following months and when complete, all trains will offer 2+2 seating in standard class and larger First Class sections with 2+1 seating, as well as free WiFi, new seats, real time passenger information, improved air conditioning and power sockets.”
However, although there’s no specific reference to 110 mph mods, they probably wouldn’t get mentioned in that sort of context.

The most important thing is getting them into service, the alterations to the interiors can be done over time

 

[swt_passenger]

The most important thing is getting them into service, the alterations to the interiors can be done over time

Sure. I thought it interesting that DfT have seemingly agreed to change them to 2+2 standard and larger 2+1 first class areas. Meanwhile in my own area all the long distance fleet, ie 444 and 159, is being changed from 2+1 to 2+2 in first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure. I thought it interesting that DfT have seemingly agreed to change them to 2+2 standard and larger 2+1 first class areas. Meanwhile in my own area all the long distance fleet, ie 444 and 159, is being changed from 2+1 to 2+2 in first.

My personal view is that First Class should always have one fewer seat across the width of the train than Standard, as this extra width is a key benefit. Having it the same is silly.

 

[hexagon789]

Sure. I thought it interesting that DfT have seemingly agreed to change them to 2+2 standard and larger 2+1 first class areas. Meanwhile in my own area all the long distance fleet, ie 444 and 159, is being changed from 2+1 to 2+2 in first.

Agreed, I'd have expected 2+2 in both classes.

My personal view is that First Class should always have one fewer seat across the width of the train than Standard, as this extra width is a key benefit. Having it the same is silly.

Though it's hardly a new thing, can think of one national railway company that had 2+2 in both classes in most of its newest loco-hauled fleet at one point, but that's going a bit off-topic.

 

[JonathanH]

I doubt they could be retro-fitted as it would alter the crashworthiness of the front end and that would need re-evaluated adding to the cost. Several trains have had gangways removed and sealed-up, I can't think of one which has had one added on later.

460s gained front end gangways when converted into 458/5.

In theory, I imagine that you could possibly put a 350 style gangway on the front of a 360 but it is not going to happen.

 

[bramling]

The Class 360s were built for First Great Eastern in 2002/3.
They are due to transfer to EMR for services to Corby out of Kings Cross next year,
But were 360s the right option?
Could 379s be a better option?

They’re both pretty similar in terms of concept, especially once interior changes are done. So personally I don’t think it matters between them.

Gangways aren’t really an issue - King’s Cross to Peterborough, essentially a similar service, has run quite happily without for many years. Indeed on that route rolling stock with gangways has over time found them not being used (317s and 387s), so clearly not massively in demand.

The 379s have unlockable windows, which might have some benefit when air conditioning fails.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 379s have unlockable windows, which might have some benefit when air conditioning fails.

Desiro aircon is highly reliable, and I haven't found the lack of opening windows to be an issue on the WCML 350s.

 

[dk1]

I really like the idea around using them in 12-car formation to provide not only the Corby stopping service but the new half-hourly non-stop service from St.Pancras which with the new mass transit link could be a game changer for Luton Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really like the idea around using them in 12-car formation to provide not only the Corby stopping service but the new half-hourly non-stop service from St.Pancras which with the new mass transit link could be a game changer for Luton Airport.

They're the same service - 2tph semi fast to Corby. There is no proposal for an airport express.

I'd like to see a 12 car formation with 8 to Corby and 4 to Leicester (or vice versa depending on demand) once the wires get that far, as a major interchange with everything calling there this would finally solve the connectivity issue from local stations to points north.

 

[43096]

They're the same service - 2tph semi fast to Corby. There is no proposal for an airport express.

I'd like to see a 12 car formation with 8 to Corby and 4 to Leicester (or vice versa depending on demand) once the wires get that far, as a major interchange with everything calling there this would finally solve the connectivity issue from local stations to points north.

Agreed; although more likely the service would run to Corby in one half-hour and Leicester in the other.

 

[greatvoyager]

Agreed; although more likely the service would run to Corby in one half-hour and Leicester in the other.

How far is the electrification going on the Midland Main Line?

 

[InTheEastMids]

Agreed, I'd have expected 2+2 in both classes.



Though it's hardly a new thing, can think of one national railway company that had 2+2 in both classes in most of its newest loco-hauled fleet at one point, but that's going a bit off-topic.

The timetable consultation says "over 600 seats per train" which gives an impression of seating density. I think this refers to a 12- car formation.

According to the internet (!), A Cl379 has 209 seats and a TPE 350/4 has 205 seats so this gives an idea of the density I think can be expected.

 

[43096]

How far is the electrification going on the Midland Main Line?

Market Harborough.

No, I don't get it. Yes, it is utterly stupid.

 

[greatvoyager]

Market Harborough.

No, I don't get it. Yes, it is utterly stupid.

Thanks for confirming.