I didn't see it as rude and thanks, but no need to be sorry. I am not trying to big up the Tories , but to try and even things out , devils advocate if you like. Most posts on here seem to bash the Tories, with Boris being a liar being the main claim. I'm not defending Boris , but most people conveniently forget any Labour lies . Blair's weapons of mass destruction was quite a whopper.
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The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion
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Howardh
Established Member
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If it's got to the point where a die-hard Brexiter either can't see the point (of the election) or has absolutely no-one/party to vote for I think it's time we all packed in! I really think we need proportional representation now as it's about the only way we can rid ourselves of the self-absorbed Tories and the self-obsessed Labour party. And the Tories need to split into the ERG-type right and the moderates.
Brexit's been a disaster for the country and it hasn't even started - because in the last three years we could have started sorting out the social care issues; getting the NHS fully staffed and funded, getting more teachers into schools and, perhaps, watching the cheque-books on HS2, the increasing cost seems to be very quietly hidden behind the bloke that keeps shouting "STOOOP BREEEXIT" outside Westminster.
Where would we be now if, in 2015 there were no plans for a referendum, the Tories had a majority, no 2017 brainfade, and they were preparing for a May 2020 election? probably wondering why they haven't touched the issues in the paragraph above.
If you'd suggested PR to me a few years ago I'd have strongly defended first past the post. I don't think ineffectual coalitions are the ideal way to go. But I'm sort of coming around to the idea, if done well but I'm not sure it ever is done well.
The reason I'll probably spoil my paper is I can't see me voting for any of the candidates I have: Labour, Conservative, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dem. I was half hoping for a random independent, even a single issue one, but no such luck.
Struner
Member
That's fair enough, I understand that completely.
Yeah, I asked about that yesterday but I'm still waiting.
underbank
Established Member
And Labour need to split into hard left & moderates too!
Personally, I think all 3 (England) major parties are past their sell by date and need replacing. Eg there have been pro and anti EU factions in both Labour and Tory for at least a couple of decades which have caused all kinds of infighting.
We know general elections are lost and won in the centre ground, i.e. Mondeo Man, so we need two centrist parties - one slightly left of centre and one slightly right of centre. Then the electorate would have a choice of left or right, but both would be "middle of the road" and more acceptable to the losing side. We desperately need to get rid of the extremes of both major parties as they're never going to be electable.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Likewise.
I really don't understand the desires of Brexitists, what they think they're going to achieve. I probably never will. It seems mainly to be baby boomers harking back to a golden age that never existed.
But then I reckon most of the ills in this country can be laid firmly at the feet of the boomers. A generation of locusts, they've consumed everything and trashed everything. The economy, the environment, the NHS, you name it, Generation Parasite have taken what they wanted and trashed the rest. Never has one generation been so pampered and so lavishly treated, and never has one generation been so damned ungrateful about it. I'll be working till I'm 75 to pay for their largesse- gifts I'll never get in my dotage- and there's barely a word of thanks.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
You really live up to your chosen website username.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Sorry to hear about your bankruptcy - that must've been hard.
But Labour did not bankrupt the country. Public finances were going pretty well until a financial crisis that started in the USA suddenly wrecked havoc with the economies of most of the developed World. And 'Labour' did not leave that note in the treasury. It was left by a particular individual as an intended joke (which obviously wasn't remotely funny and which that individual is on record as having expressed regret for doing.
Since Conservatives took power , the tax free allowance has almost doubled
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that a LibDem policy which the Conservatives reluctantly took on as a price for the coalition agreement? If so, then if you want to express gratitude for that, I would think the LibDems not the Tories would be the ones to vote for...
Would that be the same minimum wage that Labour introduced in the face of massive opposition by the Tories?
underbank
Established Member
No, the national debt was increasing and Brown had to keep extending the "financial cycle" as he claimed to have abolished boom & bust and that he'd balance the books within the "financial cycle" which he failed miserably to achieve, even before the crash. He went crazy with the nation's credit card and caused decades of hardship and cost by the sheer amount of ruinous PFI deals he signed up to so we could have hospitals and schools with hotel style atriums! He trebled the spending on the NHS but it just spent most of the money on GP wages and general inefficiency. Tax avoidance/evasion rocketed under Brown's years. Public finances were anything but "going pretty well".
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
He loves the IRA too
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Gordon Brown actually achieved a budget surplus in two consecutive years in the early 2000s.
And in 2001 the national debt as a percentage of GDP was as low as it's ever been, at about 30%.
In 2007, "when he went crazy" it was 35% and in 2008- as the crash hit and GDP dropped- it was 50%.
After ten years of Tory Austerity the national debt now stands at 86% of GDP. The actual debt has pretty much doubled in ten years of Tory rule, from £950bn to £1800bn.
Thank goodness for Tory financial competence, eh
I still love that after TEN YEARS OF TORY GOVERNMENT they're still trying to blame Gordon Brown for the fact they can't manage the economy. The facts are clear, but somehow people still buy the idea that the Tories are strong fiscally. I don't get it.
"I don't have any proof of what I said before so I'll just post another smear".
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Margaret Thatcher was anti railway
So you don't have any proof to back this up then? No, I didn't think so.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Everything Conservatives do is bad. Everything Labour does is good.
Struner
Member
Which makes him “a Russian spoof”
Again, no proof.
Busaholic
Veteran Member
- Joined
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Or re-name, the sentiments expressed in the way that they are being utterly familiar under a previous moniker, and equally boring/bogus.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Obviously a certain amount of hyperbole, but the baby boomer generation HAVE been uniquely privileged. Free university education, proper workplace pensions, strong and secure employment, state pensions at record levels, retirement at 60, record property inflation, free bus travel, and now free social care.
And yet all we seem to get from that generation is wibble about snowflakes, wibble about immigrants, wibble about the youth of today being unwilling to work, and the ultimate wibble of Brexit.
It does make me rather cross, you know. Especially as I'll not be retiring before 70 (probably 75), my pension will be peanuts, and the Tories are seriously proposing increasing my tax rate, as an over-35, to pay for boomer social care.
I feel like I've been royally shafted my the boomers, to be quite honest.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Wasn’t it Harold McMillan in fact who said “ you’ve never had it so good” ? As a boomer myself I am certainly not complaining about my lot in life. What I see is the country U.K. and USA to be honest) tearing themselves apart. There is no civil dialogue anymore. Always seems to be whatever “the other side” is doing is bad. To me that is total BS. Good ideas can come from anywhere. To butcher a quote “ sometimes it is the people nobody imagines anything of who do the things nobody can imagine”
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
I'm afraid you're just scapegoating. I definitely fit the age range for a boomer but I certainly won't have the chance to retire early (not before 66 which I expect will be put back still further) nor do I "wibble" about any of the topics you suggest. Broad generalisation simply undermines your argument. It's ridiculous to imply that people's political views depend solely on their age.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Of course not, but it's telling that older people, generally, are more in favour of Brexit, the death penalty and anti-immigration policies, and are less likely to believe in climate change and less likely to think it is caused by human activity. This is across social demographics in thatage range, too.
Of course there's a spectrum of views across an age-range, but the boomer generation tends to be much further to the right on most metrics than my generation.
Maybe we'll just get more right-wing as we get older!
Just like to say that this is a fascinating debate to be had, so please carry on but do it in the respectable way that so far you are all doing (just about).
I’m personally one of plenty of people on here that I think read these sorts of debates but don’t necessarily join in.
What I always feel though is that it’s good to look at both sides of the coin, and that’s what’s been expressed in these few posts.
I’m 46 years old so I think I’ve probably experienced (although possibly not made the most of) both sides.
Carry on (His Wokeness)...
I’m personally one of plenty of people on here that I think read these sorts of debates but don’t necessarily join in.
What I always feel though is that it’s good to look at both sides of the coin, and that’s what’s been expressed in these few posts.
I’m 46 years old so I think I’ve probably experienced (although possibly not made the most of) both sides.
Carry on (His Wokeness)...
Oddly enough I was out this evening with a couple of "boomer" friends of mine. Both they and their "boomer" friends are ardent remainers. I commented that most of the leavers that I had met were in their twenties. Funny old world.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
I'm afraid I just don't recognise your characterisation amongst people I know who are of a similar age. In practice there's just as much a divided opinion on the areas mentioned as there is nationally on Brexit. It's too easy to think that the likes of the Daily Mail are representative of a particular subset of the population just because they "shout" so loudly.
As for becoming more right-wing as we get older I have to completely disagree; I am much more liberal now than when I was younger. Perhaps what you observe is a more regional thing?
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
My father was a great believer in that point of view. Not sure it has ever been tested. I like to think I have become a little more moderate. 1970/1980S absolute out and out Thatcherite. Come 1997 I was not that concerned about Tony Blair becoming PM. It was his time. I also would not mind Jo Swinson becoming PM. however, Please, please not Jezza!
Actually my Dad asked me before the EU Referendum which way I’d like him to vote as it would be us and our kids that would be most affected by the outcome and not him.
So obviously I told him that we needed to take back control of our borde...
I’m joking don’t worry.
Looking back on it now I think he was one of the wisest people I spoke to at the time.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Problem with that approach is, you would end up disenfranchising the elderly because they should not be deciding the future of the next generation.
On the flip side, my Dad (who's in his 80s) wasn't sure what to vote for in the referendum, so he asked me about it.
I gave him some leaflets from the remain and leave campaigns, and after he'd read them he decided to vote remain.
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