Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[greatvoyager]

Short term future will be with XC.
Long term I expect will be scrap.

 

[quantinghome]

To Northern , please!

Hmmm. What routes did you have in mind? There's not many suitable for heavy trains with a top speed of 125mph.

 

[greatvoyager]

Hmmm. What routes did you have in mind? There's not many suitable for heavy trains with a top speed of 125mph.

Not to mention that the interior layout isn't appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to mention that the interior layout isn't appropriate.

Quite. Northern passengers would never put up with such a cramped layout. Except of course Coach D with its almost-all-tables layout which is similar to a 195 but with all the seats aligned to the windows.

(To be honest, if the TOC could take the capacity hit and use a layout like that, maybe replacing a bay with a large luggage rack, they'd not be at all bad...)

 

[greatvoyager]

Quite. Northern passengers would never put up with such a cramped layout. Except of course Coach D with its almost-all-tables layout which is similar to a 195 but with all the seats aligned to the windows.

(To be honest, if the TOC could take the capacity hit and use a layout like that, maybe replacing a bay with a large luggage rack, they'd not be at all bad...)

Agreed, that would be a logical option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed, that would be a logical option.

You could possibly also make the overheads bigger if whatever runs inside the rack could be moved elsewhere, replacing them with a more usual glass and steel one at the same height and gaining a few inches and a more useful shape a bit more like the Pendolino rack.

 

[greatvoyager]

You could possibly also make the overheads bigger if whatever runs inside the rack could be moved elsewhere, replacing them with a more usual glass and steel one at the same height and gaining a few inches and a more useful shape a bit more like the Pendolino rack.

And maybe replace one of the disabled toilets with a standard toilet and additional luggage or seating.

 

[ainsworth74]

Short term future will be with XC.
Long term I expect will be scrap.

I mean in the long term everything will be scrapped eventually ! I expect that they'll migrate to XC as they come free from West Coast but honestly doubt that they'll all see out the 2020s. Whether that counts as long term I'll to you!

And maybe replace one of the disabled toilets with a standard toilet and additional luggage or seating.

That has been looked at previously (I think even whilst they were still under construction even!) and ruled out as being to challenging (read: expensive) to be justifiable as it would require work on the body shell. If they couldn't make the case stack up when they were younger no one is going to manage it when their twenty years old...

 

[greatvoyager]

I mean in the long term everything will be scrapped eventually ! I expect that they'll migrate to XC as they come free from West Coast but honestly doubt that they'll all see out the 2020s. Whether that counts as long term I'll to you!



That has been looked at previously (I think even whilst they were still under construction even!) and ruled out as being to challenging (read: expensive) to be justifiable as it would require work on the body shell. If they couldn't make the case stack up when they were younger no one is going to manage it when their twenty years old...

True, although there must be a way. Either way, it will all depend on demand.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

Hmmm. What routes did you have in mind? There's not many suitable for heavy trains with a top speed of 125mph.

Very true - and take on board the comments from others. Whilst my post was a little in jest, on a serious note - could the Voyager sets work in 3-car formation to be cascaded to operators with smaller stations but whose journeys run on high speed line? Using Northern again as an example - if Northern had Voyagers on the Airport to Windermere run, they could get some good speed up between NLW and OXN.

 

[JonathanH]

Very true - and take on board the comments from others. Whilst my post was a little in jest, on a serious note - could the Voyager sets work in 3-car formation to be cascaded to operators with smaller stations but whose journeys run on high speed line? Using Northern again as an example - if Northern had Voyagers on the Airport to Windermere run, they could get some good speed up between NLW and OXN.

Probably the wrong balance between cost of operation, speed and capacity. They would need a pretty major refit to make them suitable for interurban services rather than long-distance ones. Almost certainly a non-starter.

 

[greatvoyager]

Very true - and take on board the comments from others. Whilst my post was a little in jest, on a serious note - could the Voyager sets work in 3-car formation to be cascaded to operators with smaller stations but whose journeys run on high speed line? Using Northern again as an example - if Northern had Voyagers on the Airport to Windermere run, they could get some good speed up between NLW and OXN.

An interesting thought, but I believe Voyagers need at least the two intermediate carriages because of the electrical equipment.

 

[tbtc]

I mean in the long term everything will be scrapped eventually !

If John Maynard Keynes had been on the Forum...

Very true - and take on board the comments from others. Whilst my post was a little in jest, on a serious note - could the Voyager sets work in 3-car formation to be cascaded to operators with smaller stations but whose journeys run on high speed line? Using Northern again as an example - if Northern had Voyagers on the Airport to Windermere run, they could get some good speed up between NLW and OXN.

They'd be restricted to paths as slow as the slowest stock that they'd be able to allocate to it 100% of the time - hence why Northern are running 158/195s on 75mph paths through Lancaster (and therefore unable to stop at Lancaster because there's chance that they'll have to allocate a 156 at some stage).

A three coach Voyager would probably have about as many seats as a two coach Sprinter anyway (given the "crumple zones", the big toilets, the poor seating layout etc)

Like I've been saying about the 397s, the Voyagers are too short to take on (m)any 125mph services at other TOCs but too wasteful in space to be cascaded to any 100mph services

 

[greatvoyager]

If John Maynard Keynes had been on the Forum...



They'd be restricted to paths as slow as the slowest stock that they'd be able to allocate to it 100% of the time - hence why Northern are running 158/195s on 75mph paths through Lancaster (and therefore unable to stop at Lancaster because there's chance that they'll have to allocate a 156 at some stage).

A three coach Voyager would probably have about as many seats as a two coach Sprinter anyway (given the "crumple zones", the big toilets, the poor seating layout etc)

Like I've been saying about the 397s, the Voyagers are too short to take on (m)any 125mph services at other TOCs but too wasteful in space to be cascaded to any 100mph services

It doesn't help that 22x units were designed and built during a time when emissions were not as much a priority as they are today. If they were designed in the present day, they'd probably be very different.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

If John Maynard Keynes had been on the Forum...



They'd be restricted to paths as slow as the slowest stock that they'd be able to allocate to it 100% of the time - hence why Northern are running 158/195s on 75mph paths through Lancaster (and therefore unable to stop at Lancaster because there's chance that they'll have to allocate a 156 at some stage).

A three coach Voyager would probably have about as many seats as a two coach Sprinter anyway (given the "crumple zones", the big toilets, the poor seating layout etc)

Like I've been saying about the 397s, the Voyagers are too short to take on (m)any 125mph services at other TOCs but too wasteful in space to be cascaded to any 100mph services

Ah of course, I hadn't even taken into account the timings for other units that could turn up on the service! As a novice I'm still learning the ins and outs of everything, so thanks for pointing that out as it's clearly crucial to any timing considerations when planning the paths (which I know is a whole other story!). Could it be that a class of train, whilst still completely service worthy, is "deemed" no longer fit for any franchise and is therefore sold to markets abroad or scrapped "ahead of their time"?. I'm sure that won't be the case for the 221s but you never know.

 

[greatvoyager]

Ah of course, I hadn't even taken into account the timings for other units that could turn up on the service! As a novice I'm still learning the ins and outs of everything, so thanks for pointing that out as it's clearly crucial to any timing considerations when planning the paths (which I know is a whole other story!). Could it be that a class of train, whilst still completely service worthy, is "deemed" no longer fit for any franchise and is therefore sold to markets abroad or scrapped "ahead of their time"?. I'm sure that won't be the case for the 221s but you never know.

One thing in the 221s favour is that they are used by more than one operator. XC operates the rest, so my guess will be going there, even if in the short term in preparation for a new fleet.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

One thing in the 221s favour is that they are used by more than one operator. XC operates the rest, so my guess will be going there, even if in the short term in preparation for a new fleet.

I guess they have a proven track record as well, serving so many people on such diverse services over the years. Whether you like them or you don't, they've stood up to the Pendolino competition (it's not competition as such but.... comparison let's say!) on the west coast and delivered the same speeds and journeys as the 390s with their mods/cons. If you were the average Joe, I think you'd struggle to pick apart the Pendolino and Voyager features (although to us there's a lot). I know Scotrail have employed shorter 125 sets on some routes, could Voyagers assist with this or even replace them?

 

[greatvoyager]

I guess they have a proven track record as well, serving so many people on such diverse services over the years. Whether you like them or you don't, they've stood up to the Pendolino competition (it's not competition as such but.... comparison let's say!) on the west coast and delivered the same speeds and journeys as the 390s with their mods/cons. If you were the average Joe, I think you'd struggle to pick apart the Pendolino and Voyager features (although to us there's a lot). I know Scotrail have employed shorter 125 sets on some routes, could Voyagers assist with this or even replace them?

It's a possibility, but I would say for Scotrail, it would probably be preferable to order newer more efficient machines with a longer lifespan.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

It's a possibility, but I would say for Scotrail, it would probably be preferable to order newer more efficient machines with a longer lifespan.

You're absolutely right. New trains = new start. Fab marketing aspect from a region that's been there done that with cast offs.

 

[greatvoyager]

You're absolutely right. New trains = new start. Fab marketing aspect from a region that's been there done that with cast offs.

That said, proven trains would be easier to introduce than new ones, skipping teething problems and technical glitches.

 

[greatvoyager]

You're absolutely right. New trains = new start. Fab marketing aspect from a region that's been there done that with cast offs.

Also, the 22x trains still have at least 10 years left in them, so could fulfil short term roles. It will depend if the leasing company or operator want to invest though.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

That said, proven trains would be easier to introduce than new ones, skipping teething problems and technical glitches.

I know what you mean. To general public yes - new trains are amazing. Whatever their status and wherever they've come from. But they could be old units that have stood the test of time. This is the problem with Northern, we have such a mix of old and new. We take on the old, treat as new to us (because it is, from what we've had!) but we still get problems.

Regarding the 22* class my apologies I hadn't seen your messages. They could so easily be applied to current franchisees to double up their units. They're going to be confined to limited services soon once electrification rolls out further.

 

[greatvoyager]

I know what you mean. To general public yes - new trains are amazing. Whatever their status and wherever they've come from. But they could be old units that have stood the test of time. This is the problem with Northern, we have such a mix of old and new. We take on the old, treat as new to us (because it is, from what we've had!) but we still get problems.

There probably needs to be a balance with cost too, and work out if its cheaper to lease older stock or order new stock.

 

[greatvoyager]

I know what you mean. To general public yes - new trains are amazing. Whatever their status and wherever they've come from. But they could be old units that have stood the test of time. This is the problem with Northern, we have such a mix of old and new. We take on the old, treat as new to us (because it is, from what we've had!) but we still get problems.

Regarding the 22* class my apologies I hadn't seen your messages. They could so easily be applied to current franchisees to double up their units. They're going to be confined to limited services soon once electrification rolls out further.

There are more 22x ideas here...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-22x-units.167576/
Although I appear to be the only one posting on there at present.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

There probably needs to be a balance with cost too, and work out if its cheaper to lease older stock or order new stock.

Absolutely. Cost is always the key thing. Our 319s at Northern are so much more cost efficient than building new 331s its so obvious!; but we have to look at how our demographic treat our stock. You could almost induce a class-map based on where our new units serve, I'm not suggesting to do that but you could do, and then the units could be decided. The 142 passengers aren't bothered

It might seem snobbish, but it's true and passengers asses it too.

 

[greatvoyager]

Absolutely. Cost is always the key thing. Our 319s at Northern are so much more cost efficient than building new 331s its so obvious!; but we have to look at how our demographic treat our stock. You could almost induce a class-map based on where our new units serve, I'm not suggesting to do that but you could do, and then the units could be decided. The 142 passengers aren't bothered

True. With regard to the ex Virgin 221s, I would probably say that if ever introduced on another route/franchise, they will need work on interiors. Not just to make better use if space, but to also give them a fresher feel.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

True. With regard to the ex Virgin 221s, I would probably say that if ever introduced on another route/franchise, they will need work on interiors. Not just to make better use if space, but to also give them a fresher feel.

Absolutely everyone says that about the interiors, so it's definitely a focus area. I wonder what will happen with the next franchise (that we all know the name of).

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

True. With regard to the ex Virgin 221s, I would probably say that if ever introduced on another route/franchise, they will need work on interiors. Not just to make better use if space, but to also give them a fresher feel.

Feedback from 221s isn't great really! Cramped corridors and smelloy toilets. There's a lot staff do to help this though, on the journey.

 

[The Ham]

Like I've been saying about the 397s, the Voyagers are too short to take on (m)any 125mph services at other TOCs but too wasteful in space to be cascaded to any 100mph services

They are wasteful in their current configuration, however scrap end coaches and even without changing the internal layouts you can create trains which have a better number of seats.

Take for instance a 9 coach 159 it has 72 first class seats and 516 standard class seats.

If a 10 coach 221 existed (not a pair but a single unit) it would have 54 first class seats and 512 standard class seats (the average of the 496 and 528 based on the minimum/maximum number of seats within the existing coaches).

That's close enough that you may not bother with reconfiguring of coaches. However it would result in a split first class area (one at in each end coach), which although convenient for those with anytime tickets less so for your staff and harder for those with booked seats to know which end they are aiming for. Change it so that you have 2 coaches of first class next to each other as well as up the number of seats per coach to 66p per standard coach (mostly copy coach C layout in coach B coaches) and you'd have about 73 first class seats and 504 standard class seats.

This would be 12 standard class seats short compared to the 159 train. That's probably close enough that with the removal of a couple of loos that you could get a bit closer to having the same overall seating numbers.

Probably all that would be needed would be the change of a loo into a luggage storage area (similar to that done with the shop area) and you could probably gain a further 6 seats. Over the 7.66 coaches of standard class if you did this to 2 coaches you're likely to still have 3 or 4 loos, but the same number of standard class seats.

Yes there would be costs, but the conversion of a loo to a luggage rack shouldn't be too expensive. Take the door off remove the loo, washbasin and tanks then create a new floor and wall, add in some racks. No need to play around with walls. If you really wanted to you could look to add some more windows between the main coach and the storage area or webcam so that you can login to it on your phone, either would allow you to keep an eye on your stuff more easily.

That could be a useful sized unit for some operators to use, although only really on services where you're looking to provide a higher level of service, so semi fast or express services.

One such option, could be the London to WofE line services, either in partnership with the 158/159 fleets or better still if there was electrification to Yeovil with a EMU fleet, with the 22x's running the Waterloo / Exeter (or even Plymouth) fast services.

In an ideal world (post Crossrail 2 and some improvements to capacity on the existing single track lines) you would see:
- 1tph (22x) Waterloo to Exeter (Plymouth?) semi fast
- 2tph (EMU) Waterloo to Yeovil, semi fast to Salisbury and then all stops
- 2tph (EMU Waterloo to Salisbury semi fast to Woking then all stops (extension of the current Basingstoke stoppers)
- 1tph (DMU) Exeter to Weymouth stopping service timed for a cross platform change at Yeovil
- 1tph (DMU) Exeter to Salisbury via Westbury stopping service timed for a cross platform change at Yeovil

The cross platform change at Yeovil would allow an easy journey between local stations West of Yeovil and Waterloo for those minor stations not served by the semi fast service.

The Basingstoke stoppers, which have been extended to Salisbury, wouldn't get much busier than they currently are as most people would change off of them at Basingstoke for getting to Waterloo. However to improve capacity between Basingstoke and Woking it would be easy enough to have the Southern Approach to Heathrow services call at all stations, as there's a lot of local travel along that section and the increases frequency would certainly attract a lot more people to use rail for those shorter trips.

That would remove a lot of DMU running into Waterloo, with scope to replace the 22x's in the late 2030's with bimodal units. Chances are it would result in the following slightly odd train order process:

Bimodals ordered to replace 158/159 fleet (mid 2020's)

EMU's to allow for the cascading of bimodal to other services and the 22x's brought in for the semi fast services (ideally early 2030's)

Bimodals bright in to replace 22x's (late 2030's or very early 2040's)

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder if any will get preserved, in the event no operator wants them, which I feel is unlikely.