Ex Virgin Trains Voyagers, where could they go next?

[greatvoyager]

May I suggest that what would be better is if XC gave VTWC all their voyagers, then procured IETs, or Meridians etc to compliment their HSTs.
This way Virgin could double up all their Voyager services, and possibly convert sets by taking the centre cars out of existing sets, storing the end cars, and lengthening their core Voyager fleet. This way all the 'new' stock would be titliting and no crew training ( for them) required.

Also, that would be to many voyagers for west coast requirements. XC need all the units they can get to increase capacity.

 

[Speed43125]

But the new West Coast franchise has no wish to keep their Voyagers, that's why they are up for grabs!

Also ignoring the fact that none of the XC Voyager fleet tilt.

EXACTLY! the whole point was that I think it would be better for the WCP to be the one getting more Voyagers, even though the precise opposite is happening. XC voyagers have also had their tilt disabled to increase reliability/reduce maintenance costs, but could quite easily be reinstated if the need arose.

 

[option]

May I suggest that what would be better is if XC gave VTWC all their voyagers, then procured IETs, or Meridians etc to compliment their HSTs.
This way Virgin could double up all their Voyager services, and possibly convert sets by taking the centre cars out of existing sets, storing the end cars, and lengthening their core Voyager fleet. This way all the 'new' stock would be titliting and no crew training ( for them) required.

WC can only use the 221s, there are 24 of those at XC, & they would need the tilt systems re-fitting.
There are 27 sets of 222s (Meridians), but they can't work with the 220s XC would also have (34 sets of them)

The HSTs will go, there's only 5 of them. But you've only gained 3 sets from taking the 222s.
So your already down 2 sets.

I don't see the XC franchise as being big enough by itself to order new trains.

 

[greatvoyager]

EXACTLY! the whole point was that I think it would be better for the WCP to be the one getting more Voyagers, even though the precise opposite is happening. XC voyagers have also had their tilt disabled to increase reliability/reduce maintenance costs, but could quite easily be reinstated if the need arose.

Considering that First/Trenitalia have described them as "unpopular", it would be hypocritical for them to retain/gain 221s.

 

[JonathanH]

There are 27 sets of 222s (Meridians), but they can't work with the 220s XC would also have (34 sets of them)

They don't have to couple to be able to work in the same fleet - XC manage to run HSTs without needing to couple them to 220 / 221 as well as 170s that can't couple to either.

You can dedicate 222s to one of the XC routes and 220s to the another.

 

[greatvoyager]

They don't have to couple to be able to work in the same fleet - XC manage to run HSTs without needing to couple them to 220 / 221 as well as 170s that can't couple to either.

You can dedicate 222s to one of the XC routes and 220s to the another.

It makes more sense for all 22x units to be grouped together. Also, with HS2 looming the need for tilt will not be as important anyway.

 

[Speed43125]

It makes more sense for all 22x units to be grouped together. Also, with HS2 looming the need for tilt will not be as important anyway.

I'd hardly call it looming given we're likely another decade off, and I'd like to maintain current journey times in the meantime. Not to mention the occasions Voyagers are drafted in for services as far north as Glasgow.

Considering that First/Trenitalia have described them as "unpopular", it would be hypocritical for them to retain/gain 221s.

Again, this is my idea. This whole thread is grounded on "if'', My idea is what I think could have worked. Obviously, if you wanted to acquire more, you wouldn't criticise it and vice versa. I'm just suggesting this would be better, as it looks hard to acquire new EDMUs that have tilt given the small order.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'd hardly call it looming given we're likely another decade off, and I'd like to maintain current journey times in the meantime. Not to mention the occasions Voyagers are drafted in for services as far north as Glasgow.

Again, this is my idea. This whole thread is grounded on "if'', My idea is what I think could have worked. Obviously, if you wanted to acquire more, you wouldn't criticise it and vice versa. I'm just suggesting this would be better, as it looks hard to acquire new EDMUs that have tilt given the small order.

I totally respect your point, and I do see the logic. I look forward to seeing what will happen. Either way, tilt looks less necessary going forwards. I believe the new trains won't be equipped as such.

 

[Speed43125]

I totally respect your point, and I do see the logic. I look forward to seeing what will happen. Either way, tilt looks less necessary going forwards. I believe the new trains won't be equipped as such.

Indeed, The future of this WCP is definitely something I'll be keeping tabs on.
I suppose my support of the Voyagers is probably because I've not had a bad experience on one(or XC for that matter), even all the way up the WCML to Preston in a 10 car, it seemed fine, if rather narrow.

 

[greatvoyager]

Indeed, The future of this WCP is definitely something I'll be keeping tabs on.
I suppose my support of the Voyagers is probably because I've not had a bad experience on one(or XC for that matter), even all the way up the WCML to Preston in a 10 car, it seemed fine, if rather narrow.

Personally I've always enjoyed travelling on Voyagers. There is a lot to like. They are reliable, nimble and flexible.

 

[221129]

There is exactly 0% chance of any Voyagers going to the West Coast franchise.

 

[greatvoyager]

There is exactly 0% chance of any Voyagers going to the West Coast franchise.

Exactly, that would not be logical.

 

[VT 390]

Also the West Coast should be looking to get rid of diesel services running under the wires (sometimes for the whole journey) which is what the new franchise is planning to do.

 

[greatvoyager]

Also the West Coast should be looking to get rid of diesel services running under the wires (sometimes for the whole journey) which is what the new franchise is planning to do.

Seeing as on Crewe to Wales is the only un-electrified section, so much fuel could be saved.

 

[VT 390]

Seeing as on Crewe to Wales is the only un-electrified section, so much fuel could be saved.

Also the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury section but it is still a small section compared to the rest of the route and the new Bi-Modes which will be ordered are a much better option than the West Coast having more Voyagers.

 

[greatvoyager]

Also the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury section but it is still a small section compared to the rest of the route and the new Bi-Modes which will be ordered are a much better option than the West Coast having more Voyagers.

Better to release voyagers for XC work.

 

[VT 390]

Better to release voyagers for XC work.

Yes I totally agree with this which is why the sooner the West Coast gets it's new bi modes under the new franchise the better.

 

[greatvoyager]

Yes I totally agree with this which is why the sooner the West Coast gets it's new bi modes under the new franchise the better.

I think as long as 22x units can work in multiple more often, there will be less overcrowding, less complaints, and more usage overall.

 

[greatvoyager]

I still think it's not out of the question to shut an engine down in service, seeing as voyagers can easily keep time with an engine out.

 

[greatvoyager]

Also, biofuels were considered for them in the past, can this be looked into once more by TOCs?
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rolling-stock/Virgin-Trains-leads-Europe-with-biodiesel-train

 

[greatvoyager]

How much more does a 221 weigh compare to a 220?

 

[sprinterguy]

How much more does a 221 weigh compare to a 220?

8 tonnes per vehicle.

 

[greatvoyager]

8 tonnes per vehicle.

Thank you.

 

[quantinghome]

My view is there's no question - they should go to Cross-country. Take a major city pair like Leeds-Birmingham. It's one train per hour, with many trains formed of only 4 or 5 carriages. In terms of seats per hour it's no better than before privatisation. By comparison other routes (Leeds-London, Leeds-Manchester) have seen significant uplifts in capacity. Crosscountry should be the home of all the 22X units.

 

[greatvoyager]

My view is there's no question - they should go to Cross-country. Take a major city pair like Leeds-Birmingham. It's one train per hour, with many trains formed of only 4 or 5 carriages. In terms of seats per hour it's no better than before privatisation. By comparison other routes (Leeds-London, Leeds-Manchester) have seen significant uplifts in capacity. Crosscountry should be the home of all the 22X units.

It would be so much easier if that happens.

 

[greatvoyager]

Even with all the bi mode units, Ex Virgin Super Voyagers are best placed with CrossCountry.

 

[Bevan Price]

After further thoughts, I think a solution for the "22x" problem would be for XC to obtain a fleet of (at least) 7 coach bi-modes to cover all routes that run partly "under the wires".
Then, for the 221 fleet, remove the existing diesel engines, and replace them with lighter, lower-power engines - just enough power for them to run at 100 mph - and much lower fuel consumption; also remove tilt mechanisms. Reduce 1st Class to no more than half a coach, then use them to replace 170s on Nottingham/Cardiff & Birmingham/Stansted services. That would provide much needed extra capacity on those routes.
The displaced 170s to be cascaded elsewhere - to increase capacity, or maybe to start replacement of older 15x units.

Retain at least some of the 220s for any non-electrified routes, but always run them in 4+4 formations.

 

[greatvoyager]

After further thoughts, I think a solution for the "22x" problem would be for XC to obtain a fleet of (at least) 7 coach bi-modes to cover all routes that run partly "under the wires".
Then, for the 221 fleet, remove the existing diesel engines, and replace them with lighter, lower-power engines - just enough power for them to run at 100 mph - and much lower fuel consumption; also remove tilt mechanisms. Reduce 1st Class to no more than half a coach, then use them to replace 170s on Nottingham/Cardiff & Birmingham/Stansted services. That would provide much needed extra capacity on those routes.
The displaced 170s to be cascaded elsewhere - to increase capacity, or maybe to start replacement of older 15x units.

Retain at least some of the 220s for any non-electrified routes, but always run them in 4+4 formations.

I believe that Stansted Airport can't accommodate voyager trains due to their length. I do think re-engining the units is a really good idea though.

 

[greatvoyager]

My view is there's no question - they should go to Cross-country. Take a major city pair like Leeds-Birmingham. It's one train per hour, with many trains formed of only 4 or 5 carriages. In terms of seats per hour it's no better than before privatisation. By comparison other routes (Leeds-London, Leeds-Manchester) have seen significant uplifts in capacity. Crosscountry should be the home of all the 22X units.

Perhaps they could pool all 22x units together. Getting the ex virgin 221s should be a priority for CrossCountry in the short term at least.

 

[newWCMLwatcher]

To Northern , please!