Ideas for potential Heathrow Southern link services, including Gatwick link.

[Tio Terry]

A wooden fence is normally used to ensure on track staff cannot come between and in contact with two different earthing systems at the same time. There could be a significant potential difference between the two which could be deadly.

 

[The Ham]

Why don't you think that's massively sensible? Assuming HS2 gets built, those trains would provide much better access to it via Old Oak for a big swathe of the SW suburban area. Certainly a better idea than the alternative of through-routeing Paddington-Heathrow-Reading via Western Link, which just provides a slower alternative to the existin

Indeed, that was the very question is have asked having seen the post you've replied to.

It's also worth remembering that it could also provide an alternative route than the fairly slow joinery between Guildford and Reading. That's before you start to look at improvements to jornery times between other stations along both the SWML and GWML (with the possible exception of Farnborough, which had a direct service to Reading however even that could see some improvement due to the off peak hourly service).

Know I understand that much is said about problems on either line casing problems on the other. However I'd suggest that the level of incident trends to be low especially if you are only looking at the relevant sections of track rather than the whole length of the line. For instance a minor signal issue at Winchester may cause several delays on the SWML but these wouldn't transfer to the GWML via the Heathrow services as it would be beyond the second is the SWML which would have services running on it.

 

[Bald Rick]

The fence between Plunstead and Abbey Wood is for the safety reasons mentioned above, by also because it is different railways owned, operated and maintained by different organisations.

It's also worth remembering that it could also provide an alternative route than the fairly slow joinery between Guildford and Reading.

There’s no way it will be quicker between Guildford and Reading via Heathrow.

 

[The Ham]

There’s no way it will be quicker between Guildford and Reading via Heathrow.

Only if you are going to Reading, if you're heading to other places along the line towards London it could well be.

 

[Bald Rick]

Only if you are going to Reading, if you're heading to other places along the line towards London it could well be.

Yes that might be the case. But not many Guildfordians want to go to Slough. (Does anybody?!)

 

[kevin_roche]

Yes that might be the case. But not many Guildfordians want to go to Slough. (Does anybody?!)

I remember once seeing a van with a sticker that said "Happiness is Slough in my rear view mirror".

 

[hwl]

I remember once seeing a van with a sticker that said "Happiness is Slough in my rear view mirror".

Through Slough or bypassing it at sensible speed on the M4 would be the majority preference.

 

[The Ham]

Through Slough or bypassing it at sensible speed on the M4 would be the majority preference.

It could be argued that with better rail connections it could lead to more investment which could then improve Slough.

 

[hwl]

It could be argued that with better rail connections it could lead to more investment which could then improve Slough.

Agreed - 6mins by Train to Heathrow would be a good selling point

 

[Bald Rick]

It could be argued that with better rail connections it could lead to more investment which could then improve Slough.

Crossrail has already triggered lots of development in Slough - the enhancanced value of which has all gone in the pockets of the developers, with no contribution to Crossrail.

 

[Roger100]

Crossrail has already triggered lots of development in Slough - the enhancanced value of which has all gone in the pockets of the developers, with no contribution to Crossrail.

Crossrail doesn't exist yet, and could be years away. But Slough is already over-developed, with no land for housing, business, or parking for railway users. Slough Borough Council is slowly implementing it's 'Heart of Slough' project, but the most needed part, housing, seems to be at the bottom of the list of priorities. Instead, and as always, large office blocks which will probably spend most of their lives empty have come first. Slough's shopping centre is dying. Crossrail to Reading is just the first move of a London land grab.

As for these new proposed Heathrow lines, I would suspect they will just exist on paper for years to come. The Western GWML link is years away, as gravel is being extracted above where the tunnel is planned, with, I think, another 6 years to go. Windsor Link has always been a joke, just an exercise to spend other people's money with nothing to show.

Please excuse the cynicism. I've upped and gone away away living there from the end of the real GWR days.

 

[ess]

The Western GWML link is years away

According to this page https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/western/western-rail-link-to-heathrow/
There are public information events planned in November 2019

 

[Bald Rick]

According to this page https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/western/western-rail-link-to-heathrow/
There are public information events planned in November 2019

Yep, this is to explain what is going in the Development Consent Order. It is not a consultation.
Submission of the DCO this will follow the events, presumably.

Typical timeline from there it will be about two years to go through the DCO process, concurrent with securing funding from DfT & Heathrow, so work starts in 2020 and with the tunnelling and big works on the GWML it will be 5-6 years construction.

Now compare all that to the HSL proposals, who are nowhere near as well developed as the western link, and have a much bigger project.

 

[Class 170101]

For the trains from Heathrow to Waterloo I'm guessing that they have not planned to use the 25kV AC OH because they would turn around and head back at Heathrow.

That doesn't an efficient use of infrastructure nor trains. A Waterloo to Paddington local service would also give direct access to HS2, at Old Oak Common to many parts of SW London without having to travel through Central London - not withstanding possible links on NLL via Richmond or the WLL changing at Clapham Junction albeit with walks between the proposed stations and Old Oak Common.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That doesn't an efficient use of infrastructure nor trains. A Waterloo to Paddington local service would also give direct access to HS2, at Old Oak Common to many parts of SW London without having to travel through Central London - not withstanding possible links on NLL via Richmond or the WLL changing at Clapham Junction albeit with walks between the proposed stations and Old Oak Common.

If anybody is seriously suggesting that the 387s or some other fleet put their pans down at Heathrow and go back round to Waterloo to make a Paddington - Heathrow - Staines - Clapham - Waterloo service I regret you may require some form of head testing...

 

[Bald Rick]

That doesn't an efficient use of infrastructure nor trains. A Waterloo to Paddington local service would also give direct access to HS2, at Old Oak Common to many parts of SW London without having to travel through Central London - not withstanding possible links on NLL via Richmond or the WLL changing at Clapham Junction albeit with walks between the proposed stations and Old Oak Common.

If anybody is seriously suggesting that the 387s or some other fleet put their pans down at Heathrow and go back round to Waterloo to make a Paddington - Heathrow - Staines - Clapham - Waterloo service I regret you may require some form of head testing...

There’s only so many paths available from LHR T5 to Paddington - 8 to be precise, 4 of which will be Elizabeth Line. With 4 coming from the west (Slough) and 4 coming up from the south (Woking) and 2 from Heathrow, some of them will have to turn back, and 4 will have to be Elizabeth Line.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There’s only so many paths available from LHR T5 to Paddington - 8 to be precise, 4 of which will be Elizabeth Line. With 4 coming from the west (Slough) and 4 coming up from the south (Woking) and 2 from Heathrow, some of them will have to turn back, and 4 will have to be Elizabeth Line.

I believe it is widely accepted that the Express (aka the GWR 387s) will be continued over to Reading / Newbury / Swindon / wherever appropriate over the Western link.

 

[The Ham]

There’s only so many paths available from LHR T5 to Paddington - 8 to be precise, 4 of which will be Elizabeth Line. With 4 coming from the west (Slough) and 4 coming up from the south (Woking) and 2 from Heathrow, some of them will have to turn back, and 4 will have to be Elizabeth Line.

What's the advantage of the Slough services continuing to Paddington? I'd suggest very few, at least compared to those coming from the South.

 

[Class 170101]

I believe it is widely accepted that the Express (aka the GWR 387s) will be continued over to Reading / Newbury / Swindon / wherever appropriate over the Western link.

Surprised at that and didn't know.
I always thought they would be better for the Class 387s to go to Southampton / Portsmouth
The Paddington to T5 Crossrail service would go to Waterloo
Some of the Crossrail trains that terminate at Paddington from the east could come west via Heathrow and terminate Reading (via Western link).

 

[Meerkat]

Surely huge advantages to sending the Express onwards to Woking etc, especially compared to just creating a longer route to Paddington from Slough!

 

[The Ham]

Surely huge advantages to sending the Express onwards to Woking etc, especially compared to just creating a longer route to Paddington from Slough!

Indeed, unless we're missing something; so if there's any good reasoning for doing so I'm willing to listen.

 

[si404]

And there's no reason why all the trains at one side of T5 have to go through to the other. Waterloo services are surely prime to terminate rather than looping them back to London.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe it is widely accepted that the Express (aka the GWR 387s) will be continued over to Reading / Newbury / Swindon / wherever appropriate over the Western link.

I don’t know who is ‘widely accepting’ it, but AIUI there have been no decisions made.

Surprised at that and didn't know.
I always thought they would be better for the Class 387s to go to Southampton / Portsmouth
The Paddington to T5 Crossrail service would go to Waterloo
Some of the Crossrail trains that terminate at Paddington from the east could come west via Heathrow and terminate Reading (via Western link).

Unlikely that anything from Heathrow will get south of Guildford or Basingstoke. Also unlikely that Elizabeth line services will go to Waterloo.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe it is widely accepted that the Express (aka the GWR 387s) will be continued over to Reading / Newbury / Swindon / wherever appropriate over the Western link.

Perhaps this is because the Western Link is going ahead but there is no commitment to a Southern Link yet. The routeings would be re-assessed should a Southern Link proposal go forward. I think the ideal would become 4TPH Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Guildford/Basingstoke, 4TPH Elizabeth Line extended to Staines, with the Western Link service terminating at T5 unless there was some way of continuing it to T123 and turning back before the GWML junction.

 

[Meerkat]

Renames as SAtH.
Which I assume is South pronounced like a South Londoner.....

 

[kevin_roche]

Perhaps this is because the Western Link is going ahead but there is no commitment to a Southern Link yet. The routeings would be re-assessed should a Southern Link proposal go forward. I think the ideal would become 4TPH Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Guildford/Basingstoke, 4TPH Elizabeth Line extended to Staines, with the Western Link service terminating at T5 unless there was some way of continuing it to T123 and turning back before the GWML junction.

Would save the need to build turnbacks to support the Western Link but moves the cost to the Southern Link.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Perhaps this is because the Western Link is going ahead but there is no commitment to a Southern Link yet. The routeings would be re-assessed should a Southern Link proposal go forward. I think the ideal would become 4TPH Paddington-OOC-Heathrow-Guildford/Basingstoke, 4TPH Elizabeth Line extended to Staines, with the Western Link service terminating at T5 unless there was some way of continuing it to T123 and turning back before the GWML junction.

I think you’ll find that it is being stated by HMG / DfT that through services from the Southern Link to Paddington are unlikely to be approved / possible due to pathing constraints. With that in mind, it seems most likely that Southern Link trains from both Waterloo and ‘Woking and beyond’ will be terminated in Heathrow’s T5; with the existing stuff (e.g. GWR and Elizabeth line) expected to carry folk onwards to Old Oak for HS2 connections.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Renames as SAtH.
Which I assume is South pronounced like a South Londoner.....

Sadly that’s ‘Saaaf’.

 

[edwin_m]

I think you’ll find that it is being stated by HMG / DfT that through services from the Southern Link to Paddington are unlikely to be approved / possible due to pathing constraints. With that in mind, it seems most likely that Southern Link trains from both Waterloo and ‘Woking and beyond’ will be terminated in Heathrow’s T5; with the existing stuff (e.g. GWR and Elizabeth line) expected to carry folk onwards to Old Oak for HS2 connections.

Do you have a source for that? On a quick skim I can't see it in the document linked in the previous post. In fact that says as a "minimum requirement":

The services should maximise access to both Terminal 2 and 3 and Terminal 5 stations at Heathrow Airport while minimising interchange. Where interchange is unavoidable, it should be easy, convenient and reliable for passengers.

This suggests a preference for through services at least to T2/3.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think you’ll find that it is being stated by HMG / DfT that through services from the Southern Link to Paddington are unlikely to be approved / possible due to pathing constraints. With that in mind, it seems most likely that Southern Link trains from both Waterloo and ‘Woking and beyond’ will be terminated in Heathrow’s T5; with the existing stuff (e.g. GWR and Elizabeth line) expected to carry folk onwards to Old Oak for HS2 connections.

I’d like to see a source for that also.

There is clear guidance that it is not practical to extend Waterloo-LHR services to Paddington (and that is mentioned in the recently issued statement), but nothing about services from elsewhere from the southern link not being extended to Paddington.

Besdies, DfT and HMG have no jurisdiction over ‘pathing constriants’.