Long distance trains should call at Worcestershire Parkway

[burty76]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/worcestershire-parkway-station-progress.103108/page-23

Interesting thread.

I’m dismayed at the lack of calls by the Ply-Edi and Bri-Man services. The whole point of the station when it was first envisaged in the 1970’s was to connect Worcester to major cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Bristol that it wasn’t served by.

And yet all we’re getting is a Cardiff - Nottingham 2 or 3 carriage train - the same one that we had running through Shrub hill under Central Trains in the 2000’s.

Unless stops are made for the long distance trains, this is going to be a white elephant.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting thread.

I’m dismayed at the lack of calls by the Ply-Edi and Bri-Man services. The whole point of the station when it was first envisaged in the 1970’s was to connect Worcester to major cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Bristol that it wasn’t served by.

And yet all we’re getting is a Cardiff - Nottingham 2 or 3 carriage train - the same one that we had running through Shrub hill under Central Trains in the 2000’s.

Unless stops are made for the long distance trains, this is going to be a white elephant.

It’s been mentioned a few times in the 5 years this thread’s been going. The Planner always reckoned there was no likelihood of the main XC Services stopping, eg in post #14, #20...

 

[option]

Interesting thread.

I’m dismayed at the lack of calls by the Ply-Edi and Bri-Man services. The whole point of the station when it was first envisaged in the 1970’s was to connect Worcester to major cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Bristol that it wasn’t served by.

And yet all we’re getting is a Cardiff - Nottingham 2 or 3 carriage train - the same one that we had running through Shrub hill under Central Trains in the 2000’s.

Unless stops are made for the long distance trains, this is going to be a white elephant.

If you want to serve Worcester, you have to go into Worcester.

Once the signalling at Worcester has been dealt with, I do wonder if XC services will then go via Shrub Hill.

 

[VT 390]

If you want to serve Worcester, you have to go into Worcester.

Once the signalling at Worcester has been dealt with, I do wonder if XC services will then go via Shrub Hill.

I doubt either the Manchester or Edinburgh services will be diverted via Shrub Hill as it would add to the journey time for longer distance passengers and they are full enough already and if the Nottingham was diverted via Worcester Shrub Hill there would be nothing to serve Parkway, but maybe in the future a 4th XC service will be introduced and go via Shrub Hill.

 

[geoffk]

Previous suggestions have included a Bristol - Birmingham International semi-fast service. This could call at Gloucester, Cheltenham, Ashchurch, WOP, Bromsgrove and New Street. There is currently no spare stock for such a service and finding paths, particularly in the Birmingham area, would I expect be a challenge.

 

[hello]

The length of the platforms at the station would probably indicate that it is not just going to be 2-3 car trains stopping at the station, but I’m no expert

 

[The Planner]

The length of the platforms at the station would probably indicate that it is not just going to be 2-3 car trains stopping at the station, but I’m no expert

Its a third party project so they designed it assuming longer trains would, you can't force XC to stop though.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see how it would make much sense to have long-distance trains slowed down by the need to make extra stops at these stations? XC have been trying to take advantage of journey time improvements recently all over their network - from layout changes at Reading, Stafford and Derby station and Ambergate Jn there have been adjustments to schedules.

In recent time, some XC Cardiff services have lost their Bromsgorove passengers, a small number of which will be the ones that gain calls at Worcestershire Parkway - most will be calling there new though, for the first time. Given how many are already full and standing it does surprise me that even these are going to make the calls... Manchester and Edinburgh bound trains are unlikely to have the necessary capacity too. 2, 3 and 4 car trains which have already picked people going to Birmingham up from Cardiff and Newport, Gloucester and local stations (either Ashchurch in some cases or those between Newport and Gloucester) plus residual passengers who join at Cheltenham Spa will probably not have seats available in many cases for Worcestershire Parkway passengers.

Already, National Rail Enquiries recommends Worcester to University or Birmingham New Street passengers to travel by GWR to the new station and change there for a Nottingham service at specific times of day and days of the week, where currently these will wait for a West Midlands Railway service. Is that a good allocation of capacity?

For example, on a weekday afternoon at University, if you miss the 1726 Hereford service, you can take the 1737 Cardiff Central service to Worcestershire Parkway and then a GWR service forward for stations in Worcester and Malvern. The journey time is the same in spite of the change. Expect to see people doing this.

In the other direction from Worcester Foregate Street, if you miss the 1622 service there would be a 62 minute wait for the next University or New Street bound train. A slower Snow Hill line train does run, but these are generally much less well patronised. Taking the London Paddington service and changing at Worcestershire Parkway gets you to University 20 minutes sooner than waiting for the next direct train.

There are other examples at various times.

Passengers travelling from (or via) Birmingham to Evensham, such as their numbers may be, will be able to enjoy new quicker journeys in less than 55 minutes.

 

[Sprinter107]

I don't see how it would make much sense to have long-distance trains slowed down by the need to make extra stops at these stations? XC have been trying to take advantage of journey time improvements recently all over their network - from layout changes at Reading, Stafford and Derby station and Ambergate Jn there have been adjustments to schedules.

In recent time, some XC Cardiff services have lost their Bromsgorove passengers, a small number of which will be the ones that gain calls at Worcestershire Parkway - most will be calling there new though, for the first time. Given how many are already full and standing it does surprise me that even these are going to make the calls... Manchester and Edinburgh bound trains are unlikely to have the necessary capacity too. 2, 3 and 4 car trains which have already picked people going to Birmingham up from Cardiff and Newport, Gloucester and local stations (either Ashchurch in some cases or those between Newport and Gloucester) plus residual passengers who join at Cheltenham Spa will probably not have seats available in many cases for Worcestershire Parkway passengers.

Already, National Rail Enquiries recommends Worcester to University or Birmingham New Street passengers to travel by GWR to the new station and change there for a Nottingham service at specific times of day and days of the week, where currently these will wait for a West Midlands Railway service. Is that a good allocation of capacity?

For example, on a weekday afternoon at University, if you miss the 1726 Hereford service, you can take the 1737 Cardiff Central service to Worcestershire Parkway and then a GWR service forward for stations in Worcester and Malvern. The journey time is the same in spite of the change. Expect to see people doing this.

In the other direction from Worcester Foregate Street, if you miss the 1622 service there would be a 62 minute wait for the next University or New Street bound train. A slower Snow Hill line train does run, but these are generally much less well patronised. Taking the London Paddington service and changing at Worcestershire Parkway gets you to University 20 minutes sooner than waiting for the next direct train.

There are other examples at various times.

Passengers travelling from (or via) Birmingham to Evensham, such as their numbers may be, will be able to enjoy new quicker journeys in less than 55 minutes.

As I said in another thread, according to my colleagues at work, the fare from Worcestershire Parkway to Birmingham, which is priced by Cross Country, is considerably higher, as Worcestershire Parkway will not be classed as a "Worcester Stations" so if National Train enquiries is promoting this route, some passengers may get caught out if they dont have the correct ticket . Not too sure about a Hereford ticket to Birmingham that way, because I havent thought about that as a route.

 

[Starmill]

if National Train enquiries is promoting this route, some passengers may get caught out if they dont have the correct ticket

If a ticket is issued in accordance with a travel itinerary, this is binding on the train company whose trains appear in the itinerary to accept. Only bad faith or frustration might excuse them, and they are highly unlikely to become relevant.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I know that XC have said that there's nore the space or capacity for their routes to and from Stansted Airport to call at Cambridge North.

So why would XC call at Worcestershire Parkway on the Cardiff and Nottingham routes when the capacity is already filled.

Personally, I'd stop some Voyager / HST services there unless the platforms are too short for even a 5-car Voyager.

 

[Sprinter107]

I know that XC have said that there's nore the space or capacity for their routes to and from Stansted Airport to call at Cambridge North.

So why would XC call at Worcestershire Parkway on the Cardiff and Nottingham routes when the capacity is already filled.

Personally, I'd stop some Voyager / HST services there unless the platforms are too short for even a 5-car Voyager.

Maybe the DfT have told them theyve got to stop the Cardiff to Nottingham trains there. Itll certainly be cosy on some of them. I've seen some of those trains leave New Street just a 2 car 170, absolutely full. So goodness knows where the extra passengers will go.

 

[jimm]

I’m dismayed at the lack of calls by the Ply-Edi and Bri-Man services. The whole point of the station when it was first envisaged in the 1970’s was to connect Worcester to major cities such as Manchester, Leeds and Bristol that it wasn’t served by.

And yet all we’re getting is a Cardiff - Nottingham 2 or 3 carriage train - the same one that we had running through Shrub hill under Central Trains in the 2000’s.

Unless stops are made for the long distance trains, this is going to be a white elephant.

You can be as dismayed as you like - but do you travel much on XC services on the Birmingham-Bristol axis?

You could stop the trains at Worcestershire Parkway, but whether any intending passengers would actually be able to get on to the trains is another matter entirely. The Voyagers are regularly overloaded, even at 'quieter' times of the day. The Cardiff route is little better, especially when a two-car 170 is provided, but XC presumably gets to stay in the DfT's good books by offering some sort of service at the low-level platforms

Until the fundamental issue of extra capacity on XC's services generally is sorted out, there is precious little point stopping any more XC services at Worcestershire Parkway. The travel experience provided would be pretty miserable most of the time and probably put people off ever trying it again.

And given the limited car parking available at Shrub Hill and non-existent car parking at Foregate Street, there is precious little risk of the station being a white elephant, as it is bound to be extremely popular with people going to London - a place where far more people are heading from Worcester than will ever want a direct train to Manchester or Leeds.

Personally, I'd stop some Voyager / HST services there unless the platforms are too short for even a 5-car Voyager.

The three platforms are all something like 270 metres long, so can all take a train with ten 26-metre coaches - this isn't some little local stop.

 

[The Planner]

Already, National Rail Enquiries recommends Worcester to University or Birmingham New Street passengers to travel by GWR to the new station and change there for a Nottingham service at specific times of day and days of the week, where currently these will wait for a West Midlands Railway service. Is that a good allocation of capacity.

NRE is just spitting that journey and its coincidental, it isnt a planned thing.

 

[PartyOperator]

Longer trains for Cardiff-Nottingham are desperately needed anyway. If anything, they'd be better off not stopping at Worcestershire Parkway until this has been sorted - what good is it knowing that you *might* be able to get the 17:30 from New Street if you happen to be at the front of the scrum but will otherwise be stuck waiting an hour? Slowing down the already overcrowded long-distance trains for the sake of a few people living in rural Worcestershire who could probably have driven on the M5 to Bromsgrove or Cheltenham (once the new car park is open) fairly easily would seem like a retrograde step.

Maybe in the distant future Bristol-Birmingham will be electrified and there will be regular XC bi-modes or extended Cross-City EMUs going through with plenty of capacity and fast acceleration - in that case, stopping more trains at Worcestershire Parkway would make more sense. Making the platforms nice and long seems like a good idea when building a brand new station in a location with plenty of space. Expecting loads of trains to stop with the rolling stock and infrastructure limitations as they are now is not reasonable.

 

[geoffk]

Virgin's Voyagers and EMR's Meridians will be available in a few years' time. Will XC take them on?

 

[yorkie]

I think for now just the Cardiff to Nottingham trains calling at Worcestershire Parkway should suffice, however there are clearly major capacity issues with these trains.

Previous suggestions have included a Bristol - Birmingham International semi-fast service. This could call at Gloucester, Cheltenham, Ashchurch, WOP, Bromsgrove and New Street. There is currently no spare stock for such a service and finding paths, particularly in the Birmingham area, would I expect be a challenge.

There is an aspiration for a service to call at suburban stations on the line between Kings Norton & Birmingham via St Andrews; if this ever happens it could be combined with that perhaps.

Virgin's Voyagers and EMR's Meridians will be available in a few years' time. Will XC take them on?

There are numerous other topics covering that question e.g. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex-virgin-trains-voyagers-where-could-they-go-next.188848/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/solutions-for-xc-overcrowding-in-short-medium-and-long-term.194210

 

[S-Bahn]

In answer to the question - Yes. Eventually all XC services should stop there, which should happen if and when XC receive Virgin's Voyagers and/or the EMR Meridians.

 

[jimm]

Longer trains for Cardiff-Nottingham are desperately needed anyway. If anything, they'd be better off not stopping at Worcestershire Parkway until this has been sorted - what good is it knowing that you *might* be able to get the 17:30 from New Street if you happen to be at the front of the scrum but will otherwise be stuck waiting an hour? Slowing down the already overcrowded long-distance trains for the sake of a few people living in rural Worcestershire who could probably have driven on the M5 to Bromsgrove or Cheltenham (once the new car park is open) fairly easily would seem like a retrograde step.

Maybe in the distant future Bristol-Birmingham will be electrified and there will be regular XC bi-modes or extended Cross-City EMUs going through with plenty of capacity and fast acceleration - in that case, stopping more trains at Worcestershire Parkway would make more sense. Making the platforms nice and long seems like a good idea when building a brand new station in a location with plenty of space. Expecting loads of trains to stop with the rolling stock and infrastructure limitations as they are now is not reasonable.

You do understand that Birmingham-Cardiff trains used to call at Bromsgrove, do you?

Those stops have in essence just been switched further south to Worcestershire Parkway. The gap in calls by XC at a Worcestershire station from last July until this December has been due to the extended wait for the new station to open and the timetable already allowed for them.

As for "a few people living in rural Worcestershire", there are 100,000 people living in the city of Worcester, whose only current rail outlet to the south is a two-hourly GWR service, which does nothing much to encourage people to use the train.

No one thinks the current situation is ideal (me included) but you have got to start somewhere. Trying to start with calls by some Bristol route services would be even worse than the Cardiffs.

It is to be hoped that the Williams Report means the DfT will finally stop kicking the can of XC franchise replacement down the line and actually get to grips with sorting out the capacity issue, so that this station can be used to best advantage and XC passengers generally have a far better journey experience, wherever they are in the country.

In answer to the question - Yes. Eventually all XC services should stop there, which should happen if and when XC receive Virgin's Voyagers and/or the EMR Meridians.

Maybe one train per hour on the Bristol route would be justified to give 2tph with hourly options to the South West and South Wales and to the Midlands and the North but I can't see a compelling reason why every XC service should stop.

 

[The Planner]

In answer to the question - Yes. Eventually all XC services should stop there, which should happen if and when XC receive Virgin's Voyagers and/or the EMR Meridians.

Currently can only work with the Bristol Manchester trains northbound, and even then only in the ones that go via the Camp Hills. Southbound it is going to cause you issues at Bristol Parkway as a GWR is up its backside.

 

[VT 390]

If XC order new trains in the future that have better acceleration than the 22X trains would it be possible to stop trains at Parkway then?

 

[SoccerHQ]

Of course Brum-Cardiff could always go half hourly...

 

[Class172]

Longer trains for Cardiff-Nottingham are desperately needed anyway. If anything, they'd be better off not stopping at Worcestershire Parkway until this has been sorted - what good is it knowing that you *might* be able to get the 17:30 from New Street if you happen to be at the front of the scrum but will otherwise be stuck waiting an hour? Slowing down the already overcrowded long-distance trains for the sake of a few people living in rural Worcestershire who could probably have driven on the M5 to Bromsgrove or Cheltenham (once the new car park is open) fairly easily would seem like a retrograde step.

As for "a few people living in rural Worcestershire", there are 100,000 people living in the city of Worcester, whose only current rail outlet to the south is a two-hourly GWR service, which does nothing much to encourage people to use the train.

As Jimm states, the population of Worcester is not insignificant, and if we consider the surrounding areas in Wychavon and Malvern Hills districts it would not be ridiculous to suggest the station will be a railhead for approximately 200,000 people.

If XC order new trains in the future that have better acceleration than the 22X trains would it be possible to stop trains at Parkway then?

Better acceleration than a 22x? Notwithstanding electric traction I don't believe that would be particularly easy to achieve given they are some of our fastest accelerating diesel-powered units currently (I believe a 185 is fastest 0-60mph but doesn't have the top speed of the 22xs).

Of course Brum-Cardiff could always go half hourly...

Until the Bordesley Chords are built in Birmingham, I am skeptical there would be the paths for an extra service; I believe they would either clash with the WMR Hereford or XC Bristol services.

 

[Ianno87]

Until the Bordesley Chords are built in Birmingham, I am skeptical there would be the paths for an extra service; I believe they would either clash with the WMR Hereford or XC Bristol services.

Simplistically, the constraint is fitting around the 6tph CrossCity service between Longbridge and Barnt Green.

Say you could get a long distance path between every pair of Cross City trains - that's 6 paths, less one for performance robustness - so 5 to be divvied between XC Bristol, XC Cardiff, and Worcester/Hereford.

 

[PartyOperator]

As Jimm states, the population of Worcester is not insignificant, and if we consider the surrounding areas in Wychavon and Malvern Hills districts it would not be ridiculous to suggest the station will be a railhead for approximately 200,000 people.

Looks like I did a poor job of explaining my thoughts here! I lived in the area for 15 years or so and I'd agree that there are plenty of people nearby who use trains, it's mainly the idea that there would be large numbers driving to a station near the M5 then getting a train south towards Cheltenham/Gloucester/Cardiff that seems unlikely. There's plenty of demand for trains into Birmingham (because it's close and driving into the city is a pain), as well as London and Oxford (it's relatively quick and cheap and driving is horrible). Both are well served by the existing town centre stations (two in Malvern and two in Worcester, plus Pershore and Evesham on the line to London). The population who cannot access one of these stations easily is limited. For those people, Worcestershire Parkway makes sense for trains to London. It also makes sense for people heading into Birmingham, but so does Bromsgrove, which gets far more trains to Birmingham than Worcestershire Parkway ever will.

That leaves people heading south from Worcestershire and people interchanging between the two lines. Much as it would be great to see more people using the trains (assuming longer trains become available), it just doesn't seem possible to compete with the M5 for access to Cheltenham and Gloucester given that anyone going to Worcestershire Parkway would already have taken themselves to near Junction 7. How many are really going to choose to pay for parking, wait for a train and pay £14 or whatever it costs for a return ticket on an hourly service instead of driving half an hour down the motorway?

Of course, some of these people will be heading to Bristol or South Wales, but since they'll already be at the M5 and in their cars, they'd be better off going down to Cheltenham or Gloucester (or even Bristol Parkway) for more frequent, cheaper, quicker trains.

As for interchange, maybe? But I don't think it justifies building a brand new station. Cheltenham/Gloucester to Oxford will probably still be better via Didcot, and generally much quicker and cheaper by road. And if it's about people going from Worcester to Gloucestershire who don't drive, the focus should be on getting GWR to run more frequent trains to Worcester itself. Or the council could just subsidise an hourly bus down the M5 if it's that important.

 

[Essan]

Not all of us have cars

 

[The Planner]

If XC order new trains in the future that have better acceleration than the 22X trains would it be possible to stop trains at Parkway then?

You would need something that is around 3 to 4 minutes faster over the same distance. So the answer is pretty much no.

 

[PartyOperator]

Not all of us have cars

Of course, but a station in a field by the M5 with an enormous car park, poor access for non car-users and 'parkway' in the name is not designed for the car-free...

 

[S-Bahn]

Of course Brum-Cardiff could always go half hourly...

And reintroduce a stop at Bromsgrove!

 

[option]

There is an aspiration for a service to call at suburban stations on the line between Kings Norton & Birmingham via St Andrews; if this ever happens it could be combined with that perhaps.

I believe the current plan is for that to be covered by the Hereford/Worcester services, as it then allows some of them to be moved out of New St.