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Stock Fururology

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LE Greys

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What will be running on our railways in twenty years' time? A few ideas for replacements for current stock, and I don't mean IEP/SET.

Eurostar stock is still exactly the same as when the Channel Tunnel opened. However HS1 is more than big enough for a Duplex TGV to take over the route. I am expecting that Eurostar will place a massive joint order for something resembling AGV, possibly double-decked, in about 2020. When that happens, the current Eurostars may just go off to the scrapyard, or may form part of a new HS2 domestic fleet, since they can run through to anywhere with a C3 loading gauge. However, an additional order from Hitachi is another option there, so we will see 395/5s or 396s running off HS2 to the north and Scotland.

The last HSTs will finally retire around 2025.

Class 91s may soldier on into the 2030s on the ECML, or may transfer to other lines if they ever electrify the Midland. However, there is the possibility of a new electric locomotive to run with the Mk IVs or perhaps a Pendolino order.

However, the interesting one will be if someone grasps the nettle and orders a replacement local train, to take over from both Pacers and Sprinters. This is the one I would order. It would have bogies, run no faster than 75 mph, produce lower emissions than any class it replaced (partly by keeping engine size small), be available in single- two- or three-car versions, be at least as comfortable inside as a 156, have doors at the ends of the vehicles, have a 156's hill-climbing ability, be fully 'winterised' for use in Scotland and have plenty of luggage space. Call it the Class 160. The idea is to come up with a train that can run from St Erth-St Ives, Norwich-Sheringham, Darlington-Bishop Aukland or Wick-Inverness with equal efficiency, yet be better than anything it replaces. The GWR did it with the 45XX/B-Set combination and the Auto Train. BR tried it three times (the smaller Standards, 1st gen DMUs and Sprinters).

Yes, there will be units such as 170s, 172s and 185s still around. None of these is really suited to light work, since they were designed around regional express or suburban duty, and are overpowered for the purpose. As a result, they are heavy and use too much fuel. It's also a bit of a waste to have 100 mph units on 50-75 mph branch lines with frequent stops. Besides, they will be getting on a bit by then, especially the older 170s. I would use them to cascade out the 158s (which would go out of service) and have Voyagers/Meridians/Dellas on TPX and Waterloo-Exeter. Not sure what will replace the Voyagers, Meridians and Dellas, but it had better have a higher internal capacity.

As for electric units and freight, well that's anybody's guess.
 
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WatcherZero

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I think any new commuter train ordered would have to be capable of 90 if not 100. I forsee most of the 75mph routes being gradually upgraded to faster running at least along the majority of their route, particularly if electric.
 

tbtc

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I agree about the need for "local" DMUs

Most people's idea of the future either involves (1) electrifying everything or (2) cascading down so that 158s end up on Pacer routes and 220s end up on 158 routes etc

Whilst both are attractive ideas to an extend, I think we have to be realistic and accept that (1) it would take a long long time to wire up every branch line, (2) it would be too expensive to wire up some routes that only have a handful of trains a day, (3) the vast number of Pacers built means they can't easily be replaced by 158s etc and (4) a 158 on a Pacer route is a bit like putting a motorway capable coach on a local bus route.

I think we need one massive class of 75mph units, rather than lots of little classes. Whilst we like to talk about High Speed on this forum, a lot of routes (Sheffield - Penistone - Huddersfield or Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds being two local examples) don't require the unit to travel at much over 50mph, and it'd be a waste to over-engineer them

Whilst we get excited about HS2, we should remember that a lot of rail travel is unglamorous local trips of under half an hour which needs a Pacer replacement rather than cascading 225s to run to Bishop Auckland (tempting though it sounds!)
 

starrymarkb

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Wonder if this could be built a bit narrower?

A UK version could even dispense with the low floor middle section.

Or these
Spurtarriva.jpg
 

A60K

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Interesting - I think I remember seeing something similar on a Swiss EMU (a Thurbo train possibly?), but didn't realise there were Diesel units with the same arrangement.

Presumably the reason is principally to remove equipment from underneath to allow a fully low floor design, but I guess it is also better from a weather-proofing and maintenance viewpoint as well.
 

LE Greys

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Sounds like a good idea, and the power level seems about right for the job. starrymarkb's picture almost looks as though it could be running in Norfolk or Lincolnshire already. Placing the engines away from the passenger areas would probably cut noise down, and the bogies would allow a fairly smooth ride. Some operators might demand gangways, but Pacers and 150/1s don't have gangways.

Anyone know what they're like inside?
 

WatcherZero

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[pun]how many horsepower?[/pun]

but on a serious note, we do need a new class of DMU for all of our local lines

Agreed, there will never be enough cascaded electric to even meet the demand for all the new services identified as viable, never mind lengthening of existing services.

If we say as a baseline the North needs over the next 10 years in the ballpark of 800 additional cars (excluding any withdrawals but including new services and lengthening) 400 new cars to withdraw pacers, and in the timespan shortly after (10-20 years) another 1000 to replace sprinters.

Ratio would probably be about 35% electric-65% DMU

note 400/1000 are my estimate of fleet size, would be interested in knowing the ACTUAL number of carriages in service.
 

Bastiaan

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The power pack in the centre is a very smart solution. All the technical stuff is concentrated at one location in the train, so maintenance can be done easily. The power packs have two engines, which leads to a stunning acceleration on full power.

However, the placement of the bogies makes the coaches swing very much, and make the ride quite bumpy. The engines also make a loud noise (which I don't find a problem, but "normal passengers" do :P ). At a constant speed they switch on and off every time, which is also a bit annoying.

But generally they are nice trains :)
 

Geezertronic

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I would have thought that it could be less reliable as a fire in the one location could take out the whole train. At least the existing diesel units could be eventually moved if an engine was taken out in this way.
 

starrymarkb

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Maintenance is just a case of Opening the large doors on the side of the power module.

They are cheap too - Worked out that Arriva Netherlands fleet was about £1.5m per unit.

There are various flavours of EMU in the family - there is a Narrow Gauge version with a similar layout to a Sheffield Tram called SPATZ (from the German for Narrow Gauge Panoramic Multiple Unit) which features windows right up into the Ceiling. There is also a Deluxe version called the FLIRT (Fast Light Innovative Regional Train) with more conventional articulation. AFAIK the only Diesel Stadler units are the GTW (as above) and the Regio Shuttle (Very Cheap 153 a-like)

SPATZ
800px-20060909S059_130007.jpg


FLIRT
800px-SOB_FLIRT_auf_dem_Seedamm.jpg


RegioShuttle
CB_VT512_RS1_StEgidien3.jpg
 

ChrisCooper

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I'm sure someone could come up with a proper British solution to the problem of future branchline stock. The problem with these continental solutions is that they are based around the low platform heights found there. Bringing them to the UK would require massive changes to platforms and other infrastructure (other things besides platforms encroach into the narrower bit of the loading gauge below platform height), including the problem of shared running. Build them to UK loading gauge though and you really need to sling the engines back underneath. Having them in the middle wastes space, having them in the roof (as on some designs) isn't an option. Basically you have a totally different train. The only thing I'd keep is articulation.

When it comes to electrification, I can't see that 25kV electrification of branch lines is ever going to be viable. Remember that whilst the UK is fairly low on electrification compared to other countries, much of it is due to mainlines. Wire the GWML, MML and fill in the core Cross Country network (Bristol to York) and the UK would be in line with most other countries. Very few countries have their secondary lines electrified, and where they are they are at lower voltages, usually DC. IMHO the stubbon insistance of standardising on 25kV AC for electrification going back to the 60s has a lot to answer for when it comes to the the relative lack of electrification in the UK. Had we kept 1500v I'm sure we'd have seen more lines wired with that, including secondary routes. The big advantage is lower clearances, meaning less work on bridges and tunnels. It would also make sence for things like Crossrail in the tunnels. Voltage changeover isn't complicated and can be done on the move, it happens all the time in France and other countries.

Of cource another approach to branchlines is batteries, but they are not without problems given current technology, current batteries have to trade off power and energy (i.e range) against size, weight, safety (some of the "better" types have a nasty habbit of catching fire or exploding) and cost. There is also the environmental aspect, both in terms of dangerous chemicals and also efficiency (energy out vs. energy in). That said, technology is improving.
 

TrainBrain185

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Wonder if this could be built a bit narrower?

A UK version could even dispense with the low floor middle section.
20 years time? Yes, or a similar updated Stadler built unit in Hydrogen Fuel Cell and standard OHL line fed full electric propulsion form for locals?
No more First Generation Sprinters or Pacers left with 165 to 185 units remaining rapidly being phased out as Stadler or similar style units arrive? I suggest Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology being more popular as I believe high cost oil powered propulsion will be unsustainable in 20 years time. I think that many of todays recent build electric units such as the Siemens Desiro's and similar will be operating well beyond 20 years time.
Very likely that operators such as SNCF/DB could be operating through services to destinations north of London as long as UK track and signalling is modified to conform?
Eurostar units will be cascaded to ECML services and Eurostar will have new stock to operate?
Current Third Rail lines converted to OHL?
As much of the current network to receive electrification?
I might still be around to see how much of my thoughts come to reality.....or not....
 

ChrisCooper

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Fuel Cells do seem very likely for the future, how long is anyone's guess. Road transport to be honest is far more advanced than rail in terms of alternative fuels, but the vast majority of new road vehicles still use standard internal combustion engines, and fuel cells have only seen limited use mostly in an experimental capacity. Hybrids and LPG are the only alternatives widely available.

I seriously doubt Eurostars will end up cascaded to the ECML. They are of the same age as the 91s and Mk4s currently operating, so there is no reason they will replace them. In 20 years time they will be getting on for 40 years old, so likely scrapped. Any new high speed lines will have new stock.

Through services to north of London isn't about track of signalling. Loading gauge would be an issue (unless more new lines are built, or existing ones modified) but trains could be built to UK gauge. International trains already operate under different signalling systems in different countries when on classic lines, and in 20 years ERTMS will be more common on mainlines throughtout Europe. The main issue political, things like boarder control, security etc.
 

LE Greys

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Fuel Cells do seem very likely for the future, how long is anyone's guess. Road transport to be honest is far more advanced than rail in terms of alternative fuels, but the vast majority of new road vehicles still use standard internal combustion engines, and fuel cells have only seen limited use mostly in an experimental capacity. Hybrids and LPG are the only alternatives widely available.

Having seen all the various attempts to get fuel cell buses to run, I've been wondering how long it would be before we run a prototype loco. Take an old Class 86 (if there are any left) and take out most of the electrical equipment and two traction motors. Refitting with thyristor control should lighten the weight and save a lot of space from the old tap changer/transformer system. The fuel cells would take up one end, and the electrical control equipment the other. It won't be able to haul much, but can act as proof of concept, and still run from the overhead wires if need be.

I seriously doubt Eurostars will end up cascaded to the ECML. They are of the same age as the 91s and Mk4s currently operating, so there is no reason they will replace them. In 20 years time they will be getting on for 40 years old, so likely scrapped. Any new high speed lines will have new stock.

I'm expecting them to take on any HS2 through services to Scotland as a stopgap measure. They would have to be shortened to NoL length, but have been tested on ECML and WCML, and of course run to York and Leeds in service. New stock would concentrate on the new main line for a while, until the second wave of new stock replaces the Eurostars a few years later. Of course, any problems (since when have we introduced anything without problems) would cause this stopgap period to be extended.

I suppose its too much to hope that the stock will be built at Washwood Heath under the Metro-Cammell brand.

Through services to north of London isn't about track of signalling. Loading gauge would be an issue (unless more new lines are built, or existing ones modified) but trains could be built to UK gauge. International trains already operate under different signalling systems in different countries when on classic lines, and in 20 years ERTMS will be more common on mainlines throughtout Europe. The main issue political, things like boarder control, security etc.

The way round that will probably be to seperate out the international services on a dedicated island platform, as happens at Lille Europe. This could happen at new-built stations easily, and possibly extensions to older stations such as Birmingham International. If they do link with HS1 at St Pancras, they will probably run direct to Stratford, and so avoid a reversal. Expect to see Birmingham-Paris services in 2026 (if HS2 ever happens).
 

jopsuk

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Or we could grow up as a country and properly enter the Schengen area- doesn't mean a loss of sovereignty; after all, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are outside of the EU but in Schengen.
 

WatcherZero

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We are also in a free movement area with Ireland (you know place where all those terrorists came from in the 90's), only reason Irelands not in Schengen already is because they would have to close the border with us.

Anyway back to trains. Fuel cells I dont believe is viable, far too heavy. One of the Spanish islands has just commisioned a new tram system but to avoid wires in conservation areas along 4km of its 17km length the trams will run from energy stored from previous wired sections. Theirs also Bombadiers Primove technology which is essentially the same system that powers Maglev trains applied to conventional railway (they bury a series of inductive magnets under the track) possibly way of the future in places where people dont want wires like rural country routes, conservation areas or heritage lines that could be used for suburban services.
 

TrainBrain185

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We are also in a free movement area with Ireland (you know place where all those terrorists came from in the 90's), only reason Irelands not in Schengen already is because they would have to close the border with us.

Anyway back to trains. Fuel cells I dont believe is viable, far too heavy. One of the Spanish islands has just commisioned a new tram system but to avoid wires in conservation areas along 4km of its 17km length the trams will run from energy stored from previous wired sections. Theirs also Bombadiers Primove technology which is essentially the same system that powers Maglev trains applied to conventional railway (they bury a series of inductive magnets under the track) possibly way of the future in places where people dont want wires like rural country routes, conservation areas or heritage lines that could be used for suburban services.
Back in 2004, I was invited by Barcelona TMB to study the merits of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology built into a Mercedes Citaro. The days I was there, TMB placed the vehicle on their 66 route, which was noted for having a combination of both many steep inclines and busy city operation. Indeed, the Fuel Cell Citaro was heavier than the standard diesel powered unit, but not by a great significance. During service trials, the Fuel Cell performed above my personal expectations and out-performing the diesel sisters on hill climbing abilities. Acceleration was absolutely impressive and driveline noise was truly noiseless. As with this technology, routine maintenance issues were the problem through lack of knowledge, but this and other test buses proved their could be a viable option if oil fuel supplies and costs became problematic.
It was interesting to read from a previous message that a rail vehicle could be designed to operate both on OHL pick up and also a Fuel Cell where OHL is not present. I am sure some mainstream Rail Vehicle builders will be looking at this technology as an option.
 

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WatcherZero

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Difference from Coach to a Railcar however is already more than twice the weight vehicle and has a higher power requirement meaning more cells. Now when you factor in the lower surface area of rail vs tyres it would massivley increase rail wear.
 

RobShipway

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Surely, the answer to this should come from something like the Parry People mover or something built that is a hybrid train which both diesel and AC electric capability.
 

jopsuk

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The Bombardier AGC, designed for the French TER regions, comes in Diesel, Dual Voltage electric (1.5kV DC/25kV AC), Diesel/DC dual mode and even Diesel/DC/AC variants. Obviously, as with most european stock, it can't be used over here, but the concept of the hybrid is already proven.
 

TrainBrain185

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The Bombardier AGC, designed for the French TER regions, comes in Diesel, Dual Voltage electric (1.5kV DC/25kV AC), Diesel/DC dual mode and even Diesel/DC/AC variants. Obviously, as with most european stock, it can't be used over here, but the concept of the hybrid is already proven.
Indeed....just to mention that British Rail created a ?Hybrid? around half a century ago in the shape of the Southern Region Class 73....
 

starrymarkb

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I thought the main problem with the Fuel Cell buses was the cost - £2million each - though that will decrease as the technology starts mass production
 

Drsatan

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Not to mention that the hydrogen would have to be created somehow. Until a series of plants are set up to extract hydrogen from water on an industrial basis powered by renewable energy sources (or at least nuclear power which doesn't produce any CO2), then hydrogen will either be produced as a result of existing industrial processes that produce lots of CO2 (such as oil refining), or it will have to be produced in an unsustainable fashion. So, in the short-term, producing hydrogen won't be environmentally friendly.

Secondly, how do you store the hydrogen? Hydrogen could be stored as gas at a very high pressure, but in a crash the hydrogen gas tank would explode. It could be stored as a liquid, but that would only be possible if the tank was kept at sub-zero temperatures, which would only be possible if there was an auxiliary power supply to power the cooling mechanism. Furthermore, if a train with a tank full of liquid hydrogen was kept stationary, then the hydrogen would evaporate, which means that plug sockets would have to be installed in carriage sidings, depots and station platforms, in order for the cooling mechanisms to be plugged in to prevent hydrogen from evaporating.

I don't know much about hydrogen fuel cells, but those are surely some problems they could cause.
 
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hydarogen can be compressed into a liquid and it will stay as a liquid, its actually really easy to extract hydrogen from water so that is not much of a problem, it is actually just as easy and cheap to scrape the hydrogen from water as it is to dig up oil from under the sea
 
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