Is First Class too expensive and should it be abolished?

[cactustwirly]

So you wish to discriminate against disabled people?
And why shouldn't I use First Class?

Nothings stopping you using first class?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you wish to discriminate against disabled people?

Not offering a discount on 1st to any Railcard user isn't discrimination against disabled people.

And why shouldn't I use First Class?

You can use it if you wish by paying the full fare requested like everyone else.

(I don't agree with him - I would offer 1st discount on ALL Railcards - but I do see his point)

 

[Failed Unit]

Not offering a discount on 1st to any Railcard user isn't discrimination against disabled people.

You can use it if you wish by paying the full fare requested like everyone else.

(I don't agree with him - I would offer 1st discount on ALL Railcards - but I do see his point)

The current system discriminates against 30 - 59 year olds. Why should they not be allowed to enjoy reduced fare 1st travel? (1/3 of advertised fare) Some would argue income but we will find examples of high income 26 year olds and low income 45 year olds. The 26 year old can travel in first for less than the 45 year old in standard.

Yes the answer maybe is a national railcard available to everyone. Then everyone pays the same. If they want to give the card away to low income, disabled etc so be it. But at least everyone gets the same T&C and some people (potentially with high disposable income) are not getting preferential treatment. I am sure the general AP fare are higher because of railcards, with the TOCs understanding that many people will reduce the target profit with railcards

 

[AM9]

The current system discriminates against 30 - 59 year olds. Why should they not be allowed to enjoy reduced fare 1st travel? (1/3 of advertised fare) Some would argue income but we will find examples of high income 26 year olds and low income 45 year olds. The 26 year old can travel in first for less than the 45 year old in standard.

Yes the answer maybe is a national railcard available to everyone. Then everyone pays the same. If they want to give the card away to low income, disabled etc so be it. But at least everyone gets the same T&C and some people (potentially with high disposable income) are not getting preferential treatment. I am sure the general AP fare are higher because of railcards, with the TOCs understanding that many people will reduce the target profit with railcards

Issuing a national railcard would have the same effect as reducing fares generally by nearly 30%. That would seriously affect the viability of the privatised railway, unless all fares were raised by 30%.
Railcards are currently designed to target certain groups of travellers who are prepared to accept restrictions in the times that they travel and on certain trains, which is a benefit to the railway. Travel to work is a necessity that railways are obliged to provide, and at peak times, at much higher cost than off-peak times.
Although not a perfect filter, the age group 30-59 is one where most users are in work. Beyond 59, an increasing number of travellers are into part-time work or early retirement, so they are likely customers for leisure travel. Below 30 years old adults fall into several categories that are less likely to be able to pay the full price of rail travel, including in some cases, travel to and from education and/or work, so that group has additional benefits like anytime travel discounts.
As far as first class goes, those over 60 travellers are more likely to want/appreciate/need the additional comfort or facilities normally offered so they are likely to pay the additional fare of a discounted 1st class ticket. Far fewer of them would pay the full undiscounted fare. The under 30s are much more likely to travel standard anyway, (there's always a few who don't fit that mould) but it is a fair business decision to steer the majority of them to standard when travelling for leisure.

 

[Meerkat]

So you wish to discriminate against disabled people?
And why shouldn't I use First Class?

Discriminate? Disabled railcards allowing use of first would be discriminatory. Without them you have exactly the same use of first class as anyone else. Who is stopping you using first class?

 

[AM9]

Discriminate? Disabled railcards allowing use of first would be discriminatory. Without them you have exactly the same use of first class as anyone else. Who is stopping you using first class?

No, the equality act, (and the DDA before it) specifies that discrimination doesn't meant treating those in need differently, that would mean that starie everwhere would be compliant. The intention of legislation is that all reasonable measures are taken to mitigate the disadvantages that those with disabilities have to live with. In the case of accommodation on trains, that could mean that the minimal legroom available in standard class is unsuitable for certain disabled passengers, whereas the increased room in 1st class helps them to travel in more comfort, maybe as good as a fully able person does in standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of accommodation on trains, that could mean that the minimal legroom available in standard class is unsuitable for certain disabled passengers, whereas the increased room in 1st class helps them to travel in more comfort, maybe as good as a fully able person does in standard.

That's what priority seating is for. Though my observation is that more "priority seat target" type people choose tightly packed airline seats so they can use the seat back in front to help them sit down.

 

[Llanigraham]

Discriminate? Disabled railcards allowing use of first would be discriminatory. Without them you have exactly the same use of first class as anyone else. Who is stopping you using first class?

How is allowing me using my Card to get a discount discriminatory?

 

[MalaiseForever]

That's what priority seating is for. Though my observation is that more "priority seat target" type people choose tightly packed airline seats so they can use the seat back in front to help them sit down.

Indeed, priority seats are just for people over 6 foot 2 (i.e. me) in my experience. Especially A45/46 on the Pendolino.

 

[AM9]

That's what priority seating is for. Though my observation is that more "priority seat target" type people choose tightly packed airline seats so they can use the seat back in front to help them sit down.

But priority seats don't satisfy the needs of some with mobility issues, and often they are grabbed by large/tall fit people, (not a criticism of them partiularly, more of a lack of information by the TOC about who they are intended for).

 

[Mojo]

Given First Class no longer means privileges such as hot meals or the privacy of a compartment, why does it cost so much?

Really? I’d say the likelihood of food being provided now a days is more common than it was in BR days. The number of First class lounges also seems to have increased.

 

[Failed Unit]

But priority seats don't satisfy the needs of some with mobility issues, and often they are grabbed by large/tall fit people, (not a criticism of them partiularly, more of a lack of information by the TOC about who they are intended for).

So we should provide such travellers with discounted first class travel and discrimiate against able bodied people rather than fix the problem in standard?

Going back to the topic of this thread, which is basically saying we should abolish 1st class because it is too expansive and takes up too much room. Do you think we have enough of this kind of traveller to justify the over provision of 1st class on some routes? Do you think that the accessable toilet is in the wrong place on the class 700 as i think it will be a bit of stuggle for a disable traveller to walk from 1st to it current location, with the quality of some of the track they use.

I guess filling 1st 16-25 railcard users and disabled railcard uses gets them out of standard gives more seats for the rest of us, but is this form of discrimation against abled bodied people really acceptable in this day and age?

 

[Failed Unit]

Really? I’d say the likelihood of food being provided now a days is more common than it was in BR days. The number of First class lounges also seems to have increased.

Actually I have found the price difference isn't as big on the inter-city routes as it is on the regional routes. Sometimes I do actually think the meal would cost me x so therefore I will pay the difference. I can't think I have ever thought the difference is worth it on the former regional railways and NSE route. Scotrail (under first) did give free upgrades to advance holders. I am sure giving upgrades to big spenders would go down well, even if it was restricted. Works for the airlines and encouraged people to book with East Coast. Under LNER you could spend £1000s per year but get nothing back. It least with Virgin you got airmiles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But priority seats don't satisfy the needs of some with mobility issues, and often they are grabbed by large/tall fit people, (not a criticism of them partiularly, more of a lack of information by the TOC about who they are intended for).

Realistically unless TOCs provide good legroom in all other Standard seats (as per classes 80x, 175, 185, 444 and 195/331 - I can't think of any others off hand though I've yet to ride Mk5 stock or a TPE WCML EMU) this is going to happen, and people who need them are going to have to ask for them, or wear a "passive" way of asking for them like one of those baby on board badges. In the above classes I deliberately *don't* sit in them. In other classes, well, I've had DVT once and it was insanely painful (a bit like breaking your leg, indeed, when I went to hospital with it I thought it was a fracture) and I have no desire to have it again, so I am going to sit there, but move if someone needs it.

The thing is that almost never happens. And that's all the more notable because I always sit in the window seat, and so there's almost always an aisle free next to me on quieter trains[1] - and nobody who looks like a priority seat "target person" ever takes it.

[1] On Pendolinos, notably, ONLY the aisle seats are priority seats, the window seats next to them are not.

 

[w1bbl3]

The disabled rail card was a product introduced in an era when trains where not intended to be accessible, so logically providing access to the least dense widest pitch seats made sense also the lack of peak time restrictions made sense to help disabled travel for work and for some classes of train it still does either because of the level of crowding likely a peak times or the pitch / isle width making manoeuvrability difficult.

There is a wider question around railcards generally in terms what purpose do they offer to the passenger and the TOC. 16-25 was intended as student card where income would be generally limited, offering first class fares on this card doesn't make logical sense, 26-30 should IMHO be a leisure travel product so no peaktime validity, first class validity outside of peak does appear logical to "fill" spare capacity. Senior railcard again at introduction was intended as a leisure travel product for people of pension age but now outside of the south east covers all travel times, this doesn't make logical sense.
Railcard discounts on AP fares really do not seem logical either. As it stands the 1/3rd off on intercity travel with peak time tickets can see the card pay for its self in single journey which IMHO also feels somewhat wrong, e.g. the £60 saving on a anytime standard say Man > London departing 6:30am.

Also the lack of nationally available off-peak first doesn't seem right, if the TOC is only managing to fill first outside of peak time by shifting a lot of AP tickets then something is up with the product provision.

 

[4REP]

First class is a great thing for the avoidance of noisy children.

And Anti social behaviour!

 

[jon0844]

And Anti social behaviour!

They usually go straight to first class!

 

[DarloRich]

Why shouldn’t you be able to use a 16-25 railcard on a 1st class ticket?

because I don't like students.

Why shouldn’t any railcard be used on 1st class tickets?

because I haven't got one. Get me a railcard that gives me the same discount as a student and my views might change. Until then you can pay the same as me.

In fact I don't even want the same privileges as a student. I just want an off peak national railcard.

So you wish to discriminate against disabled people?
And why shouldn't I use First Class?

Please feel free to use first class. I just think you should pay the same fare I have to. I know that wont be popular but it is my view.

 

[Failed Unit]

because I don't like students.



because I haven't got one. Get me a railcard that gives me the same discount as a student and my views might change. Until then you can pay the same as me.

In fact I don't even want the same privileges as a student. I just want an off peak national railcard.



Please feel free to use first class. I just think you should pay the same fare I have to. I know that wont be popular but it is my view.

But the 16-25 railcard isn’t just for Students. Fully employed people can have them. Some of them having higher earnings than us. . I had more disposable income in that age bracket.

 

[DarloRich]

But the 16-25 railcard isn’t just for Students. Fully employed people can have them. Some of them having higher earnings than us. .

don't get me started on them! The time my student railcard would have been really useful was when I was first working and skint. THAT was when I NEEDED a discount!

 

[Failed Unit]

don't get me started on them! The time my student railcard would have been really useful was when I was first working and skint. THAT was when I NEEDED a discount!

Yes remember those days. Showing my age but there were few APs back then. BR turned the calendar from blue to white. I did occasionally travel first. For £3 extra in weekend first. But only Savers and Supersavers back then. Best leave that for the nostalgia thread.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes remember those days. Showing my age but there were few APs back then. BR turned the calendar from blue to white. I did occasionally travel first. For £3 extra in weekend first. But only Savers and Supersavers back then. Best leave that for the nostalgia thread.

add an extra 0 to weekend first these days!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the 16-25 railcard isn’t just for Students. Fully employed people can have them. Some of them having higher earnings than us. . I had more disposable income in that age bracket.

The idea of a 16-25 isn't just as some kind of social levelling. It's to get people of that age used to train travel as a default, so they then go on travelling by train at full fare as they get older. On that basis extending it to 1st makes sense.

It's like the "free cheeseburger with your Big Mac Meal" thing Maccy's always did for students. It's not to be nice to students. It's so that you get used to having a cheeseburger alongside your Big Mac Meal so once no longer eligible you continue to have one and pay for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

add an extra 0 to weekend first these days!

Quite - Weekend First has got a lot more expensive of late, mostly too expensive for me to justify - only on very long journeys does it get towards the magic "150% of Standard" figure if used in both directions. I would be interested to know if that has made significant differences to its takeup, if that's caused a greater sale of First Advances on weekends, or if it's caused a drop-off in takeup, and whether that has affected profits adversely or if it's the case of "better one at £30 than two at £10 each".

 

[Failed Unit]

The idea of a 16-25 isn't just as some kind of social levelling. It's to get people of that age used to train travel as a default, so they then go on travelling by train at full fare as they get older. On that basis extending it to 1st makes sense.

It's like the "free cheeseburger with your Big Mac Meal" thing Maccy's always did for students. It's not to be nice to students. It's so that you get used to having a cheeseburger alongside your Big Mac Meal so once no longer eligible you continue to have one and pay for it.

we won’t ever agree on that. It should be all or nothing for the railcards. But I don’t see why railcard users should be pricing out everyone else. Why should 16-25 be allowed and not family?

 

[DarloRich]

The idea of a 16-25 isn't just as some kind of social levelling. It's to get people of that age used to train travel as a default, so they then go on travelling by train at full fare as they get older. On that basis extending it to 1st makes sense.

they can get the bloody national express like I had to as student. THAT will learn them the value of train travel. Do student snot spend all their money on beer these days?

And it would be much better for your clueless student to squash on in cattle class and see what the reality of train travel is like rather than lording it up in first class. They should be making decisions on future travel in full possession of the facts because those first class fares, sans railcard, will be out of reach.

I really dislike students. Have i mentioned that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

they can get the bloody national express like I had to as student.

...

I really dislike students. Have i mentioned that?

Can anyone else see the problem here?

 

[DarloRich]

Can anyone else see the problem here?

i didn't like students when i was a student. I was there to work ( and drink) and get a proper professional qualification. I avoided student clubs, societies, the student union and other students like the plague. I drank in proper pubs with real people and lived in areas away from students. It gave me a much better grounding in life than living in university ever would.

 

[nlogax]

they can get the bloody national express like I had to as student.

When I was a student even 'proper' National Express was too expensive. On regular trips to Yorkshire from VCS I had to chance my arm with another coach firm who stuck around to compete with them for a couple of years. Half the price and twice the likelihood of getting a seat. A Friday evening seat north on a 225 felt like some far-off pipe dream that I'd never be able to afford.

 

[al78]

they can get the bloody national express like I had to as student. THAT will learn them the value of train travel. Do student snot spend all their money on beer these days?

And it would be much better for your clueless student to squash on in cattle class and see what the reality of train travel is like rather than lording it up in first class. They should be making decisions on future travel in full possession of the facts because those first class fares, sans railcard, will be out of reach.

I really dislike students. Have i mentioned that?

Yes it is perfectly clear you exhibit irrational prejudice, so your opinions can be binned as far as I'm concerned.