Is First Class too expensive and should it be abolished?

[Bevan Price]

I think that 1st class should only exist on trains where the amount of standard class is more than adequate for typical daily requirements. Replacing standard class area, to convert them to 1st Class - as happened on XC Class 170s, and some years previously on TP Class 158s was total madness in my opinion. All it did was make bad overcrowding situations even worse. If 1st class has to exist, it should only be available as about 1/2 coach per 5 coach train - and zero in smaller trains.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't dislike first class. However first class should be limited to true long distance intercity services, the number of first class carriages should be cut, the price increased to offer a true premium product and student railcard and child fares removed.

It should be removed entirely from XC ( other than an HST) and even then limited to the buffet car UNTIL XC have some decent length trains. I am sick of standing next to the toilet, breathing in pooh fumes while there is one smug looking so and so in first class.

Come the revolution comrades........................................................

 

[al78]

We need to keep first class in case someone needs to be moved there because two old people have taken their reserved seats and won't move.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I miss the unique Seatfrog app on what's now LNER, where 2hrs before a train was due to leave KGX you could bid for an upgrade on the available first class seats and if they were really quiet you could first class for a couple of quid, on peak trains the bidding rose up to £40-£50-£60 for the upgrade but a good innovative idea

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't dislike first class. However first class should be limited to true long distance intercity services, the number of first class carriages should be cut, the price increased to offer a true premium product and student railcard and child fares removed.

It should be removed entirely from XC ( other than an HST) and even then limited to the buffet car UNTIL XC have some decent length trains. I am sick of standing next to the toilet, breathing in pooh fumes while there is one smug looking so and so in first class.

Come the revolution comrades........................................................

You can't use a 16-25 Railcard with walk up First class fares.

 

[Mag_seven]

I miss the unique Seatfrog app on what's now LNER, where 2hrs before a train was due to leave KGX you could bid for an upgrade on the available first class seats and if they were really quiet you could first class for a couple of quid, on peak trains the bidding rose up to £40-£50-£60 for the upgrade but a good innovative idea

Have LNER withdrawn from Seatfrog then?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Have LNER withdrawn from Seatfrog then?

Nope I'm a tit, I though when Virgin/stagecoach ran away, the Seatfrog thing stopped too

 

[DarloRich]

You can't use a 16-25 Railcard with walk up First class fares.

Good. Can you do it with advanced fares?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Good. Can you do it with advanced fares?

Yes, the 16-25 Railcard can be used on First Class Advance fares.

 

[island]

I wonder if say British Airways could introduce something similar i.e. when economy class is full, business class seats get sold at economy class prices.

They do after a fashion, by overselling economy and upgrading people to premium economy or business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the 16-25 Railcard can be used on First Class Advance fares.

This was also the work of VTWC - Railcards were first accepted in 1st on the Virgin Value tickets, which became part of the Advance T&Cs.

 

[MrEd]

First class is a great thing for the avoidance of noisy children.

I’m not a regular user of first class on trains other than the sleeper, but the last couple of times I’ve been in LNER first class this year that definitely hasn’t been the case. If anything, the anti-social behaviour in First last time was worse than I’ve ever experienced in standard on the same route. On the 08.18 Peterborough to Edinburgh last Friday, I had three blokes sitting opposite me (respectable looking professional types in suits I might add) talking at full volume using some pretty foul (and sometimes downright racist) language all the way to Newcastle, then a hen party doing what hen parties do from Durham to Edinburgh... all had valid tickets too so not a case of chancers... had work to do but gave up after a while... First was pretty busy too, so moving to a different coach wasn’t really an option (and it may have been just as rowdy there). I enjoyed the greater space and the free food, but definitely wouldn’t suggest that it offered a particularly quieter or more peaceful travelling environment than standard on that route. I might not have had any screaming kids but i had some very rowdy adults to contend with!

I went in First on a Scotrail HST from Perth to Inverness later that same day and it couldn’t have been more different- no catering at all due to staff shortages, but a near empty carriage and a very peaceful travelling environment. Scotrail may not have very much success in marketing first, but at least it’s almost guaranteed to be quiet (and you can get some very decent advance fares on the Perth to Inverness route too, even on Friday afternoons). This was by far the nicer of the two journeys!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't dislike first class. However first class should be limited to true long distance intercity services, the number of first class carriages should be cut, the price increased to offer a true premium product and student railcard and child fares removed.

The problem with only providing first class on long-distance services is that you get routes that are served by both long-distance and local services. Take for example Manchester-Preston. Presumably under your suggestion, you could buy a first class ticket, but you'd only benefit from it if you took a Manchester-Scotland train, rather than a Manchester-Blackpool train. I'd imagine that could lead to some pretty upset first class passengers. Though I suspect similar problems must already happen - it's inevitable if first class is only available on some, but not all, trains.

Also, I can imagine a lot of commuters would be prepared to pay a fair bit more to travel first class - since many non-long-distance journeys still involve being on a train for an hour or more. Do we really want to lose the extra revenue from those commuters and deprive them of the choice?

Interestingly, you also get the opposite problem: First class on trains operating routes that don't offer first class tickets. My local example is Thameslink - all their trains feature first class, but then they turn up on the Rainham route, which is notionally standard-only. Obviously, everyone who realises the situation piles into the 'first' compartments with their standard tickets and Oyster cards (which are great because they have more comfortable seats AND tables), which therefore usually end up pretty full.

By the way, providing and correctly charging for first class will become a bit of a challenge if we ever move to a nationwide contactless system - since the card readers at stations will have no way of knowing which compartment you intend to travel in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By the way, providing and correctly charging for first class will become a bit of a challenge if we ever move to a nationwide contactless system - since the card readers at stations will have no way of knowing which compartment you intend to travel in.

There are two ways of dealing with this - one is that you have validators either on the platform or on the train where you touch to upgrade that particular journey leg, the other is that you can set via an online account to default to First or Standard all the time.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Good. Can you do it with advanced fares?

Why shouldn’t you be able to use a 16-25 railcard on a 1st class ticket?

 

[Failed Unit]

Do operators get a larger share of the ORCATs if they offer first on their service.

for example I let’s say you travel from Stamford - Edinburgh. You buy 1st. You don’t really care about the Peterborough- Stamford but as it is so short. But as it has 1st you sit in it. The fares didn’t increase when XC introduced first on the Turbo’s but did they get a greater share of the ORCATs. Easy money from tickets that would have got sold anyway? I understand a lot of people use the turbos first with connections to long distance operators.

another example is Leicester- Manchester do TPE get a higher share of 1st class tickets than EMT and Northern?

I suspect if the answer is yes first on units won’t be going any time soon. It is interesting we have this thread and others in the past saying EMT should have 1St on Norwich - Liverpool to offer a consistent product to other operators sharing the route. We will see if / when TPE take over and the 185s rule the route what the viewpoint is.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why shouldn’t you be able to use a 16-25 railcard on a 1st class ticket?

Why should that railcard be allowed and the family (or various others) not? Could be jealous that it was never allowed when I had that railcard but the whole point of the railcard was to encourage people to use capacity that would be free otherwise. Allowing the railcard is actually pushing first class fair prices for a lot of people out of reach. Then you get threads like this one

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why shouldn’t you be able to use a 16-25 railcard on a 1st class ticket?

The 16-25 railcard is designed to attract to the railways a group of people who are likely to be poorer and therefore particularly sensitive to price. It's effectively a way of selling tickets to, and thereby getting revenue from, people who are more likely than most of the population to refuse to travel at all if the only option is a full price ticket: A (admittedly quite crude) way of charging people differential amounts depending on their ability to pay.

On the other hand, someone who is choosing to travel first class is clearly demonstrating that they don't care very much about the ticket price, and they are very happy to buy an expensive ticket in order to get a comfortable journey. Offering a railcard discount to those people is more likely to reduce, rather than increase, revenues, since you are giving a discount to people who would probably travel anyway.

(The weekend first upgrade is different - that's a way of extracting additional revenue to fill first class seats that would otherwise be empty on days that see very few business travellers).

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if say British Airways could introduce something similar i.e. when economy class is full, business class seats get sold at economy class prices.

Airlines simply overbook.

 

[cactustwirly]

No, but the number of first class carriages should be reduced on Virgin and EMR, it's ridiculous that a 5 car 222 only has 3.5 coaches of standard, which is often very busy, and the first class just carries fresh air!

 

[MalaiseForever]

Why should that railcard be allowed and the family (or various others) not? Could be jealous that it was never allowed when I had that railcard but the whole point of the railcard was to encourage people to use capacity that would be free otherwise. Allowing the railcard is actually pushing first class fair prices for a lot of people out of reach. Then you get threads like this one

Why shouldn’t any railcard be used on 1st class tickets?

 

[Failed Unit]

Why shouldn’t any railcard be used on 1st class tickets?

I personally think all railcards should be prohibited from first class. For the reasons outline in post #78. Hopefully it could reduce the ticket prices for everyone. But irrespective the railcards were not designed for cheap first class travel.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Whilst I agree that 1st should be declassified on overcrowded trains, I do find it strange that some passengers still stand when there are seats available.

Last week on the LNW LIV-EUS south of Birmingham it took ages before anyone sat in the middle of the three seats on the 3+2 bay I was in, (I must change my aftershave). There were people stood in the vestibule all the way from New Street whilst these two seats were empty, (I think we got to MK before anyone sat in them)?

A passenger who boarded at New St and sat in the double seat on the opposite side of the aisle to me, plonked her rather large handbag on the aisle seat then sat diagonally with her back against the window and her feet stuck out in the aisle. Despite people standing in the vestibule again it was a good 30 minutes before someone who had just boarded asked her to move-up.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am sure the TOCs could do better with yield management off peak. The various operators of the east coast franchise seem to get this right.

But other things could be done to balance the leadings out. Such as let full fare ticket holders onto first off-peak. But where do you draw that line? London - Newcastle have paid a lot so some would say that is ok. But Grantham - Newark?

the problem to be is actually the former NSE operator. Mine first is nearly double the standard. No off peak discounts. So no-one buys. Although I don’t think I would pay much extra for first on the former nse area. It is only 50 mins typical journey for me so standing is fine.

 

[island]

Virgin already allows anytime ticket holders a free upgrade on weekends.

 

[Failed Unit]

Virgin already allows anytime ticket holders a free upgrade on weekends.

Someone still does. I recall GNER did in the past as well.

I am sure the original MML franchise did for passengers north of Leicester in the weekday off-peak. In the days everyone got free tea so it was just a better seat.

 

[Llanigraham]

I personally think all railcards should be prohibited from first class. For the reasons outline in post #78. Hopefully it could reduce the ticket prices for everyone. But irrespective the railcards were not designed for cheap first class travel.

Can you explain why I as a Disabled Adult Card holder shouldn't be allowed to claim a discount? Because none of the reasons stated in #78 seem to be fair or apply.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I do find it strange that some passengers still stand when there are seats available.

On a busy train, that's me - for two reasons.

a) I (usually) get more personal space while standing compared to sitting in the middle seat of 3 where I get no elbow or leg room.
b) Almost certainly someone more worthy of a seat will board somewhere and so I may as well keep seats for them free rather than shuffle to get in, then shuffle again to offer them the seat.

 

[Meerkat]

Can you explain why I as a Disabled Adult Card holder shouldn't be allowed to claim a discount? Because none of the reasons stated in #78 seem to be fair or apply.

Because the disabled railcard is to make it easier for disabled people to travel. That doesn’t require the use of first class

 

[Llanigraham]

Because the disabled railcard is to make it easier for disabled people to travel. That doesn’t require the use of first class

So you wish to discriminate against disabled people?
And why shouldn't I use First Class?