Suggestions for improving the service on the Wrexham-Bidston line

[ElectroSoldier]

You wouldnt want to remove the interchange at Bidston, you would be far better off adding a 3rd platform for the Boraderlands service to use.
Its an interchange station or parkway in modern talk, there is little to nothing at Bidston other than that interchange, which is nice

 

[Meerkat]

You wouldnt want to remove the interchange at Bidston, you would be far better off adding a 3rd platform for the Boraderlands service to use.
Its an interchange station or parkway in modern talk, there is little to nothing at Bidston other than that interchange, which is nice

The interchange moves to Birkenhead (how many people would really interchange there if Shotton trains carried on into Liverpool?)
Not keen on having a Parkway that close, shouldn’t be encouraging driving short distances

 

[ElectroSoldier]

If I was doing a full fat job on the line I would be tempted to close Bidston and open a replacement a bit along the Wrexham line, at the old road bridge. Takes a stop and slow conflict out of the West Kirby line and puts the station nearer the housing.

The interchange moves to Birkenhead (how many people would really interchange there if Shotton trains carried on into Liverpool?)
Not keen on having a Parkway that close, shouldn’t be encouraging driving short distances

None.
I certainly wouldnt. I only go there, or did because that was where it started.

 

[8H]

(getting away from some of the "fantasy" stuff and the Union stuff...) there's obviously been a lot of chat about a second train per hour being a semi-fast but which stations would it serve?

To save sufficient journey time to permit an extension to Birkenhead (or even under the Mersey) it would presumably need to skip a few stations, so what would you miss?

Stations shown with most recent annual passenger numbers from Wiki:

Wrexham Central - 88,568
Wrexham General - 492,000
Gwersyllt - 26,802
Cefn-y-Bedd - 7,620
Caergwrle - 17,800
Hope - 24,630
Penyffordd - 20,686
Buckley 41,008
Hawarden - 32,642
Shotton - 215,066
Hawarden Bridge - 3,296
Neston - 42,924

Helswall - 58,452
Upton - 33,634
Bidston - 288,000 (plus 71,114 interchanges)

So (assuming that it'll start/finish at Wrexham Central) the big hitters are obviously Wrexham General and Shotton. But where else? Would the Merseyside stations all warrant the semi-fast stopping there, given the potential for more Liverpool commuters?

Where would you draw the line though? Only serving stations with 20,000 passengers pa would mean skipping three stations - is that enough to get all the way to Birkenhead in an hour? Or would you skip all of the ones under 30,000 passengers pa? Will the WAG b happy if the new service skips lots of Welsh stations but serves all of the English ones?

(apologies if this has been already decided)

it is a good thing to look at the numbers ! However I suspect there are an above average number of passengers without tickets given the short distances between some stops and more importantly this line has been set in aspic on frequency and journey time and with poor connectivity at interchanges for so long nobody really knows its potential. You can model it through MOIRA to get an idea what improvements might do but reality often outshines forecasts. I repeat incessantly that ticketing is going to be critically important too, if options are developed that are multi modal and multi operator in Wales and Cheshire West and MPTE areas passenger use could be greatly encouraged. The present options are utterly minimal. If we just wait for the frequency to improve and keep the ticketing we have its a Really big wasted opportunity.

 

[8H]

The interchange moves to Birkenhead (how many people would really interchange there if Shotton trains carried on into Liverpool?)
Not keen on having a Parkway that close, shouldn’t be encouraging driving short distances

Birkenhead North is now a bit of a parkway, not sure what the car park capacity is but its big. Don’t personally think you need Wrexham Liverpool via Bidston direct if you had the cross platform interchange made at North where you have the New Brightons and the West Kirbys giving you a good example of a Tube style frequency and ease of access between trains.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50165268

Long over due investment in station improvements announced today as well - planned to coincide with new rolling stock which seems a positive step.

That's good news, although I really can't see £280K spread between 13 stations going far. That's basically £20K per station, which probably explains the limited scope of the works:

The programme will see stations from Neston to Wrexham "deep cleaned" with new signage and landscaping, according to TfW.

The operator added that in the longer term, stations would benefit from new information screens, waiting room refurbishments and more platform seating

I'm not sure whether the 'longer term' stuff is included in the £280K

 

[8H]

If frequency was increased and direct trains to Liverpool put on, I'd be inclined to agree. It's a bit middle of nowhere.

The line sort of suffers from the northern bit basically being similar to most of Merseyrail, but the southern bit being a rural branch line. In some ways I'm a bit surprised it didn't get an Ormskirk style treatment, with Merseyrail to Neston and an end-on junction there to a rural DMU once an hour.

It's also an odd survivor in a way - the line round the coast from West Kirby would far better serve Heswall and Neston than the line from Bidston.

The “joint line” would be great for the Dee coast of Wirral. Whilst both Neston stations are/were town centre both Heswall stations are/were on the outskirts of the town centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The “joint line” would be great for the Dee coast of Wirral. Whilst both Neston stations are/were town centre both Heswall stations are/were on the outskirts of the town centre.

Though I suspect Heswall is a traffic source, not sink, for people travelling to Liverpool. This being the case, it doesn't overly matter if the station is in the town centre (look how many London commuter stations aren't) but rather the coverage of the town, which two coastal stations would do much better than the one they have.

It's only really Upton that'd lose out, though I suspect more people from around there might use more frequent bus services instead?

 

[option]

why either/or? I reckon extending the platforms to the North Wales line would only make them 200m long, which is far from unusual and possibly long enough to have terminating trains from both Liverpool and Wrexham.

It's 210metres from the North Wales line to the main road, so less than that if changing trains.

 

[Djgr]

If I was doing a full fat job on the line I would be tempted to close Bidston and open a replacement a bit along the Wrexham line, at the old road bridge. Takes a stop and slow conflict out of the West Kirby line and puts the station nearer the housing.

Except that Bidston is quite a successful park and ride (expanded recently)

 

[Djgr]

If frequency was increased and direct trains to Liverpool put on, I'd be inclined to agree. It's a bit middle of nowhere.

The line sort of suffers from the northern bit basically being similar to most of Merseyrail, but the southern bit being a rural branch line. In some ways I'm a bit surprised it didn't get an Ormskirk style treatment, with Merseyrail to Neston and an end-on junction there to a rural DMU once an hour.

It's also an odd survivor in a way - the line round the coast from West Kirby would far better serve Heswall and Neston than the line from Bidston.

Possibly although would probably take even longer

 

[Djgr]

it is a good thing to look at the numbers ! However I suspect there are an above average number of passengers without tickets given the short distances between some stops and more importantly this line has been set in aspic on frequency and journey time and with poor connectivity at interchanges for so long nobody really knows its potential. You can model it through MOIRA to get an idea what improvements might do but reality often outshines forecasts. I repeat incessantly that ticketing is going to be critically important too, if options are developed that are multi modal and multi operator in Wales and Cheshire West and MPTE areas passenger use could be greatly encouraged. The present options are utterly minimal. If we just wait for the frequency to improve and keep the ticketing we have its a Really big wasted opportunity.

Not sure that there is much ticketless travel. In my experience the distance between stations is sufficient for diligent conductors (and they tend to be good on the line). There is little traffic between the small Welsh stations.

 

[krus_aragon]

It's 210metres from the North Wales line to the main road, so less than that if changing trains.

Unless you're changing to/from platform 4, in which case you need to walk from platform 4 to the main road, back up and along platform 3, then down the footpath to the coast line. That'd be a bit longer.

 

[Djgr]

Birkenhead North is now a bit of a parkway, not sure what the car park capacity is but its big. Don’t personally think you need Wrexham Liverpool via Bidston direct if you had the cross platform interchange made at North where you have the New Brightons and the West Kirbys giving you a good example of a Tube style frequency and ease of access between trains.

630 spaces and full every day!

 

[option]

Unless you're changing to/from platform 4, in which case you need to walk from platform 4 to the main road, back up and along platform 3, then down the footpath to the coast line. That'd be a bit longer.

Which is fixable, whereas changing the distance between main line & the centre isn't.

 

[Djgr]

Though I suspect Heswall is a traffic source, not sink, for people travelling to Liverpool. This being the case, it doesn't overly matter if the station is in the town centre (look how many London commuter stations aren't) but rather the coverage of the town, which two coastal stations would do much better than the one they have.

It's only really Upton that'd lose out, though I suspect more people from around there might use more frequent bus services instead?

Yep. There is zero chance of this happening, given that this the Wirral Way country park

 

[8H]

Yep. There is zero chance of this happening, given that this the Wirral Way country park

I think we are just reflecting on lost opportunity regarding the joint line, could have been a Wirral clockwork train circular service.
As regards Heswall (Heswall Hills) station location, there is no proper feeder bus and no car parking to add to its woes as a useful commuter station being stuck well off centre.

 

[Djgr]

I think we are just reflecting on lost opportunity regarding the joint line, could have been a Wirral clockwork train circular service.
As regards Heswall (Heswall Hills) station location, there is no proper feeder bus and no car parking to add to its woes as a useful commuter station being stuck well off centre.

And the frustration is that the car parking was flogged off relatively recently, although there is sufficient parking for current usage.

 

[Dr Hoo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50165268

Long over due investment in station improvements announced today as well - planned to coincide with new rolling stock which seems a positive step.

Around £20,000 per station is hardly transformative. I suspect that most of that will be swallowed by repainting and re-branding / signing into TfW colours, which produces no functional improvement whatsoever.

It is slightly ironic that the BBC story is illustrated by a picture of Penyffordd. This station lacks a footbridge or other safe means of crossing the line to the northbound platform. Hardly the sort of situation to fit with talk of higher speeds, higher frequencies, skip-stopping and resumption of freight at Padeswood Cement Works.

I agree that Shotton is a complete mess. On my most recent visit I encountered a distressed individual (not a regular user) who had just watched their planned train to Wrexham depart from the opposite platform as they were confused by the layout. They were on their way for a job interview and set to become a regular commuter. Fortunately I was able to identify an option via the low-level platforms and changing at Chester into a late-running Holyhead-Cardiff service so they should have just made their appointment. But it did make me wonder how much other business has been lost over the years by the inadequate arrangements.

 

[Statto]

I think we are just reflecting on lost opportunity regarding the joint line, could have been a Wirral clockwork train circular service.
As regards Heswall (Heswall Hills) station location, there is no proper feeder bus and no car parking to add to its woes as a useful commuter station being stuck well off centre.

Yep, Heswall is miles from the town centre, one reason why some prefer the 471/472 bus even though that can take an hour. There is no bus route passing Heswall station anymore, ones that go near[73 & some peak 472] go down Brimstage Road & Acre Lane, didn't help things that one of the bus companies that did operate a bus service past Heswall station went into admin & closed down a year ago, even then the bus timings were awful for train connections.

Heswall has long had a poor service, mostly hourly headway that called at station.

 

[L401CJF]

(getting away from some of the "fantasy" stuff and the Union stuff...) there's obviously been a lot of chat about a second train per hour being a semi-fast but which stations would it serve?

To save sufficient journey time to permit an extension to Birkenhead (or even under the Mersey) it would presumably need to skip a few stations, so what would you miss?

Stations shown with most recent annual passenger numbers from Wiki:

Wrexham Central - 88,568
Wrexham General - 492,000
Gwersyllt - 26,802
Cefn-y-Bedd - 7,620
Caergwrle - 17,800
Hope - 24,630
Penyffordd - 20,686
Buckley 41,008
Hawarden - 32,642
Shotton - 215,066
Hawarden Bridge - 3,296
Neston - 42,924
Helswall - 58,452
Upton - 33,634
Bidston - 288,000 (plus 71,114 interchanges)

I would argue that the figures are inaccurate though, given that at least 50%of the time I use this service which is regularly (I live in Neston) the conductor won't bother to come down the train to sell tickets. On the wirral section particularly, there are a lot of 1 stop journeys (Upton to Heswall, Heswall to Neston, neston to Shotton') and the amount of people you see who make these journeys and don't buy a ticket because they have no choice is shocking! I usually travel between Neston and Upton. Of the last 5 times I've made this journey I have only bought a ticket twice, and the last time I use the train to Bidston the conductor did come down, but said he had no ticket machine so couldn't sell any. If the data is taken from ticket sales to and from stations, then I suspect the real numbers are quite a bit higher.

 

[Statto]

Except that Bidston is quite a successful park and ride (expanded recently)

Birkenhead North[BKN] has a park & ride too, & more accessible than Bidston, BKN had a refurb a couple of years back at the time the P&R was built so has a lift to all platforms, Bidston does not, Bidston is an island platform only accessible via a step footbridge, the crossing is out of use & fenced off.

Both Bidston & BKN are on my local line so i know these stations quite well.

 

[Djgr]

Birkenhead North[BKN] has a park & ride too, & more accessible than Bidston, BKN had a refurb a couple of years back at the time the P&R was built so has a lift to all platforms, Bidston does not, Bidston is an island platform only accessible via a step footbridge, the crossing is out of use & fenced off.

Both Bidston & BKN are on my local line so i know these stations quite well.

But Birkenhead North Park and Ride is full and couldn't absorb car users currently parking at Bidston (198 spaces)

 

[Dr Hoo]

Appreciating that this is slightly off-thread in the specific context of Wrexham-Bidston, does Merseyrail / Merseytravel have multi-storey car parks anywhere?

 

[Djgr]

Appreciating that this is slightly off-thread in the specific context of Wrexham-Bidston, does Merseyrail / Merseytravel have multi-storey car parks anywhere?

Top of my head-not that I can think of

 

[Bletchleyite]

Top of my head-not that I can think of

I'm not aware of any either. The stations on Merseyrail proper are generally close enough together for most people to get to them on foot. Even getting the pushbike out probably isn't worth it for most.

 

[Meerkat]

That is why I was wondering if they really should be worrying about P&R that close in. Either those people are close and shouldn’t be driving, or they are from further away and Merseyrail are cannibalising their own revenue.

 

[Djgr]

That is why I was wondering if they really should be worrying about P&R that close in. Either those people are close and shouldn’t be driving, or they are from further away and Merseyrail are cannibalising their own revenue.

Park and Ride is primarily to keep cars out of Liverpool, wherever they originate from.

Park and Ride policy and locations including (lack of) pricing are not up to Merseyrail but determined by Liverpool City Region via Merseytravel. Remember Merseyrail is a concession.

 

[Sprinter153]

Gwersyllt I can understand as its patronage is dropping steadily given the bus service into the town.

I think Gwersyllt passenger numbers are significantly affected by there being no chance of collecting all fares on board between Gwersyllt and Wrexham. It’s well known as the free way into town.
A TVM wouldn’t last 5 minutes there and it wouldn’t get used anyway, like the one at Wrexham Central which is practically an ornament.

 

[rich.davies]

I think Gwersyllt passenger numbers are significantly affected by there being no chance of collecting all fares on board between Gwersyllt and Wrexham. It’s well known as the free way into town.
A TVM wouldn’t last 5 minutes there and it wouldn’t get used anyway, like the one at Wrexham Central which is practically an ornament.

You can tell who is going to Gwersyllt when they board at Central, they check where the conductor is and they go in the opposite carriage.

It must add up to quite a lot of lost revenue over the year!