Could banning cars from City Centres work?

[HSTEd]

Track brakes on trams are emergency only and in my experience very rarely used. The Tube does not have them but it does have friction brakes on the wheels - however the newer fleets mostly use regeneration instead.

Indeed, but regeneration becomes less and less effective at low speed, which is why brake dust is still a major pollution issue on the tube.

 

[Bletchleyite]

especially with the use of track brakes such as those found on tram systems

Track brakes are used in emergency only, not on a regular basis. Trams mostly use regen/rheostatic braking the same as their big 25kV brothers.

This is one of the major reasons that air quality on the deep tube is so bad.

It's not, it's brake dust from the friction pads.

Really, in this context, there is one reason and one alone to use buses - they are cheaper. Trams are superior in near enough every way.

 

[HSTEd]

Really, in this context, there is one reason and one alone to use buses - they are cheaper. Trams are superior in near enough every way.

And that is the most important reason to use buses.
We don't have infinite money, we can't build a tram system that is anywhere near as extensive as a bus system with the same cost.

The stop spacings can't be as short for the same average speed either.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, but regeneration becomes less and less effective at low speed, which is why brake dust is still a major pollution issue on the tube.

From testing the 1990s-era vehicles on Tramlink at the time, the friction braking comes in at about 2km/h. Newer designs may be even better. AC motors don't need the sort of brake blending that DC motors did.

One of the main sources of dust on the Tube is human skin particles. There will also be some dust from wheel and rail wear.

 

[Meerkat]

One of the main sources of dust on the Tube is human skin particles

I really really didn’t want to know that!!

 

[bluenoxid]

Thinking about the curry mile, would stopping restrictions and a Toronto King Street turn left after one block be an option.

https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Toronto.pdf

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely the answer for the curry mile, given the title of this thread, is to ban cars from it?

 

[deltic]

In answer to the OPs question the answer is clearly yes as evidenced by central London which is virtually private car free during the day. Remove parking and people have no option but to use public transport, walk or cycle. London's congestion charge accelerated the decline in car use in central London which has fallen markedly again with the introduction of the 24 hr ultra low emission zone.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely the answer for the curry mile, given the title of this thread, is to ban cars from it?

Unfortunately, the Curry Mile is a rather major transport artery as earlier posters have noted.
It is important both for East West as well as vestigal north-south traffic.

 

[PaulMc7]

In answer to the OPs question the answer is clearly yes as evidenced by central London which is virtually private car free during the day. Remove parking and people have no option but to use public transport, walk or cycle. London's congestion charge accelerated the decline in car use in central London which has fallen markedly again with the introduction of the 24 hr ultra low emission zone.

Yeah we could do with that here in Glasgow tbh. Shame our council are scared to do anything because it'll upset drivers

 

[edwin_m]

In answer to the OPs question the answer is clearly yes as evidenced by central London which is virtually private car free during the day. Remove parking and people have no option but to use public transport, walk or cycle. London's congestion charge accelerated the decline in car use in central London which has fallen markedly again with the introduction of the 24 hr ultra low emission zone.

However London needs to do something about taxis and private hire vehicles. A couple of these carrying a couple of passengers (or even just cruising around waiting for the next fare) use as much roadspace as a bus that might be carrying 80 or more people. Unfortunately black cab drivers are a powerful political lobby, as in a different way is the likes of Uber.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately, the Curry Mile is a rather major transport artery as earlier posters have noted.
It is important both for East West as well as vestigal north-south traffic.

It's really not. There are other roads running parallel or nearby with plenty of capacity. Only a madman drives down there unless going to somewhere between the MRI and Owens Park. East-west traffic crosses it but needn't go down it other than very short sections.

 

[HSTEd]

It's really not. There are other roads running parallel or nearby with plenty of capacity. Only a madman drives down there unless going to somewhere between the MRI and Owens Park. East-west traffic crosses it but needn't go down it other than very short sections.

Were it so easy the road would already have been closed.
It is considerably less amenable to closure than the rest of the route that did have regular traffic (largely) removed. Most of the frontage along those streets is owned by the NHS or the two Universities.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In answer to the OPs question the answer is clearly yes as evidenced by central London which is virtually private car free during the day. Remove parking and people have no option but to use public transport, walk or cycle. London's congestion charge accelerated the decline in car use in central London which has fallen markedly again with the introduction of the 24 hr ultra low emission zone.

I live the middle of London (inside the congestion and emission zone), and work on the edge of the zone, and I can assure you that it's nowhere near free of private cars in the middle of the day. (Though an increasing proportion of what look like private cars are actually private hire vehicles - Ubers etc - the numbers of which have grown several-fold in recent years. Unlike the proper licensed taxis, which have their numbers - and everything else - regulated by TfL, the authorities have been refused the legal power to limit private hire numbers.) The combined number of private cars and private hire vehicles feels to me as bad as in pre-congestion charge days.

The power to regulate private hire vehicles properly, plus a big tax on parking spaces, might get numbers back down again. But currently, it's still hell out there for those of us cycling and walking around the centre.

 

[deltic]

I live the middle of London (inside the congestion and emission zone), and work on the edge of the zone, and I can assure you that it's nowhere near free of private cars in the middle of the day. (Though an increasing proportion of what look like private cars are actually private hire vehicles - Ubers etc - the numbers of which have grown several-fold in recent years. Unlike the proper licensed taxis, which have their numbers - and everything else - regulated by TfL, the authorities have been refused the legal power to limit private hire numbers.) The combined number of private cars and private hire vehicles feels to me as bad as in pre-congestion charge days.

The power to regulate private hire vehicles properly, plus a big tax on parking spaces, might get numbers back down again. But currently, it's still hell out there for those of us cycling and walking around the centre.

I specifically stated private cars ie excluding Uber. Taxi numbers are not limited in London. Minicabs are now subject to the congestion charge and are increasingly low or zero emission but I agree there are too many of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The power to regulate private hire vehicles properly, plus a big tax on parking spaces, might get numbers back down again. But currently, it's still hell out there for those of us cycling and walking around the centre.

Personally, when I've cycled in London, I haven't found small private passenger vehicles (be they owned, hired via an app or hired via sticking your hand out and paying cash) to be a massive threat. It's large, mostly commercial vehicles (building and delivery lorries and White Van Man) that cause the main issues for cyclists, both in terms of actual risk and in terms of making it feel oppressive.

(Taxis are no more space or pollution efficient than private cars, so I see no sense in considering them any differently)

 

[deltic]

However London needs to do something about taxis and private hire vehicles. A couple of these carrying a couple of passengers (or even just cruising around waiting for the next fare) use as much roadspace as a bus that might be carrying 80 or more people. Unfortunately black cab drivers are a powerful political lobby, as in a different way is the likes of Uber.

I agree but the days of the black cab are probably numbered - their numbers are static or declining and the average age of drivers is nearer to retirement age than in most occupations. When I first came to London the streets were full of people on scooters learning the knowledge now you see very few.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree but the days of the black cab are probably numbered - their numbers are static or declining and the average age of drivers is nearer to retirement age than in most occupations. When I first came to London the streets were full of people on scooters learning the knowledge now you see very few.

Possibly so, but unless someone gets a grip the wheelchair-accessible and tightly regulated black cabs will be replaced by yet more PHVs which are neither of those things.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Personally, when I've cycled in London, I haven't found small private passenger vehicles (be they owned, hired via an app or hired via sticking your hand out and paying cash) to be a massive threat. It's large, mostly commercial vehicles (building and delivery lorries and White Van Man) that cause the main issues for cyclists, both in terms of actual risk and in terms of making it feel oppressive.

(Taxis are no more space or pollution efficient than private cars, so I see no sense in considering them any differently)

Absolutely - commercial vehicles (especially large ones) are a big danger to cyclists too. But I was commenting specifically on the suggestion that there were very few "cars" on the road in the daytime in central London, and pointing out that on my patch that's certainly not the case. That's why my comments were focussed on cars and car-like vehicles. I wasn't meaning to ignore the problem of commercial vehicles.

In terms of danger though, "minicabs" do seem to be in a class of their own these days. Their dangerous and illegal actions have caused me far more problems in the last few years than I was used to from similar smaller vehicles. Like most cyclists in London, I've had run-ins with buses and taxis over the years, but nothing like the problems I have now with the increased numbers of minicabs/Ubers etc.

Incidentally, as far as "proper" taxis are concerned, I do see them as part of the public transport system, and as a useful emergency back up to buses etc, and as needed for people with mobility problems. Providing they continue to switch to electric vehicles, and continue to be wheelchair accessible, I see them as part of the solution [to the need for safe, healthy, equitable urban mobility], not as part of the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Incidentally, as far as "proper" taxis are concerned, I do see them as part of the public transport system, and as a useful emergency back up to buses etc, and as needed for people with mobility problems. Providing they continue to switch to electric vehicles, and continue to be wheelchair accessible, I see them as part of the solution [to the need for safe, healthy, equitable urban mobility], not as part of the problem.

Yes and no. They probably are necessary, but hailing via an app is more convenient than guessing when one will turn up to hail by hand, app payment is more convenient than cash, and they need to be banned from stopping in bus lanes as they cause an obstruction. (Part of this relates to design of the bus lanes - they should run down the middle of the road with the nearside lane being the private car lane, not in the gutter - that way the stopping blocks private cars, so I stop caring about it ).

 

[Ken H]

One of the main sources of dust on the Tube is human skin particles.

Isnt there a huge amount of human hair removed from tunnels. do they still use 'fluffers'?

 

[edwin_m]

Yes and no. They probably are necessary, but hailing via an app is more convenient than guessing when one will turn up to hail by hand, app payment is more convenient than cash...

Black cabs are also "hailable" by app these days. At least I believe so, I never use any form of taxi on principle unless I have absolutely no alternative.

...and they need to be banned from stopping in bus lanes as they cause an obstruction. (Part of this relates to design of the bus lanes - they should run down the middle of the road with the nearside lane being the private car lane, not in the gutter - that way the stopping blocks private cars, so I stop caring about it ).

Problem there is what you do at bus stops. Either the bus needs to cross the traffic lanes to the kerb, or an island is needed between the bus lane and the general traffic lane. This in turn will either be narrow and dangerous or wider and taking space that would otherwise be the traffic lane, with the side footway narrowed to compensate. It might work on a spacious dual carriageway but not in the narrow streets of most of our cities.

I think I've seen a suggestion somewhere that taxis might be banned from bus lanes unless picking up or dropping off someone disabled or infirm, with other people having to use "taxi stops" at places where they don't block buses. IF enough such places could be found (probably on side streets adjacent to a main road) this might work with apps but obviously more difficult with traditional hailing. ​

Isnt there a huge amount of human hair removed from tunnels. do they still use 'fluffers'?

They certainly still clean the tunnels, even on the lines where trains use very little friction braking. From what I remember of the various Tube TV series this is still a labour-intensive task but I believe they also have a giant rail-mounted vacuum cleaner.

 

[HSTEd]

Problem there is what you do at bus stops. Either the bus needs to cross the traffic lanes to the kerb, or an island is needed between the bus lane and the general traffic lane. This in turn will either be narrow and dangerous or wider and taking space that would otherwise be the traffic lane, with the side footway narrowed to compensate. It might work on a spacious dual carriageway but not in the narrow streets of most of our cities.

Slight problem is that unless the buses decide to run on the right, standard buses can't use an island platform.
Modifying the buses would lose seating capacity because you have to provide doors on both sides, but would gain standing space in the "vestibules".

Running on the right on a busway is no issue really, but it could cause interesting problems at the ends of the busway or on mixed use roads where it could confuse other drivers into doing something stupid.

On a long section of dedicated busway though, I do like islands because it allows much simpler interchanges between "branches" of the tree shaped network centred on the busway.

 

[edwin_m]

Slight problem is that unless the buses decide to run on the right, standard buses can't use an island platform.
Modifying the buses would lose seating capacity because you have to provide doors on both sides, but would gain standing space in the "vestibules".

Running on the right on a busway is no issue really, but it could cause interesting problems at the ends of the busway or on mixed use roads where it could confuse other drivers into doing something stupid.

On a long section of dedicated busway though, I do like islands because it allows much simpler interchanges between "branches" of the tree shaped network centred on the busway.

The segregated sections of the Istanbul busway runs on the left so the standard European buses with doors on the right can serve island platforms in the centre of a dual carriageway (some of which are very cramped and wouldn't be allowed in western Europe). For the Bosphorus suspension bridge it joins the outer lanes in mixed running, obviously now running on the right, with a fairly complicated arrangement to transition between the two. This manages to run about five buses per minute with no overtaking lanes at stops, achieved by having each "platoon" follow each other closely and stop together at a long platform.

 

[option]

Oh, don't I know it. I went for an interview once with a local authority for a fairly lowly admin job - half way through they started talking about driving between sites to deliver the internal mail, and looked utterly gobsmacked when I said I didn't drive, even asking me how I'd managed to get there for the interview. Apparently nobody had noticed the bus stop outside.

(going somewhat off-topic now)

also, if you did use your own vehicle for business/employment purposes, your insurance premiums would likely go up. Would the LA be paying for that, together with the fuel, increased maintenance & depreciation?

 

[option]

Bus journey times have increased by 50% in urban areas since the 1960s, so that more buses are required to maintain any given level of frequency. Moreover, a ten per cent decrease in speed reduces patronage by at least the same amount. Only proactive use of traffic management powers by local authorities can help to limit this effect but many are reluctant to use these powers for fear of alienating the “motor voter”. The move to 100% off-bus ticketing in London has helped to increase operating speeds there but achieving this elsewhere is impossible in the deregulated regime with a multiplicity of competing operators.

That's changing in the West Midlands. Where there's one primary operator, they have already moved to contactless payment & app ticketing. (The main operator round here has always been 'correct change only' as well)
On routes where there's multiple operators, they are starting to have common branding & tickets.

 

[option]

if you stop car use in cities, then they will die. Same as people vote with their tyres at high parking charges and go to out of ton shopping, or just stay at home and shop on the internet. Remember, many who dont live in the city will go elsewhere if using their car becomes difficult too.

people have mentioned anti-social behaviour. This is especially difficult for women, especially those travelling alone.

They can only go to out-of-town shopping centres by car if;
they exist
the person has a car
parking is cheaper/easier than using public transport

 

[PeterC]

(going somewhat off-topic now)

also, if you did use your own vehicle for business/employment purposes, your insurance premiums would likely go up. Would the LA be paying for that, together with the fuel, increased maintenance & depreciation?

The HMRC approved milage rates include an element for maintenance and depreciation, insurance is another matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The HMRC approved milage rates include an element for maintenance and depreciation, insurance is another matter.

In any case, for business use (rather than commercial travelling e.g. shifting goods) it barely makes any difference to premiums. At one point Direct Line gave you Business Class 1 (use by policyholder only for business purposes) by default for nowt, with only a few specific professions excepted. They may still do.

 

[option]

Quite a lot of the street, including a brand new underground car park accessible only from the street.
It is a major thoroughfare, it would be extremely difficult to ram through a closure of the road - honestly if it was so easy it would already have been done.

There is a reason the restricted access section of the road terminates immediately north of the Curry Mile.

Does that shift parking places from elsewhere, maybe on-street, or is it additional parking?
If it's the latter, then it shows the utter stupidity that has to be fought against.