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Standard Class Ticket Holders Standing In First Class Carriages.

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Aictos

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I wonder what the situation is on the 321s, given that there's FC accommodation on each sides of the doors (each with their own set of doors) and as such, I believe that the area between is NOT first class.

Given my experience with well-trained RPIs this week, I'd hate to argue whether it was or wasn't deemed as first class.

I'm referring to the FCC 321s, so don't know what signs/stickers may be on other 'versions'.

I've asked a colleague today about that and holders of a Standard Class fare is quite entitled to use the vestibule between the two First Class compartments without fear of being PFed.

Am still interested in how the London Midland and National Express East Anglia 321s are managed.
 
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Ajax103
I don't see how he reached that conclusion. The whole of the vehicle is first class not just the seating area. A little further thought will reveal all sorts of idiosyncracies in that argument.

A railway ticket does NOT confer a seat in provides only for travel between the specified stations. Carriages are designated as either first class or standard. You colleague is wrong.
 

paul1609

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Something else to be considered is the fact that, as far as VWC is concerned, they operate trollies through the First Class, as well as the staff walking through with tea/coffee pots.

Standing standard class passengers can prevent this service, and create a safety risk from scalding, etc.

.

Sorry but i think that is Rail Industry Bull**** of the highest degree.
presumably you would ban trolley services on any service that has standing passengers then?
 

jon0844

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Ajax103
I don't see how he reached that conclusion. The whole of the vehicle is first class not just the seating area. A little further thought will reveal all sorts of idiosyncracies in that argument.

A railway ticket does NOT confer a seat in provides only for travel between the specified stations. Carriages are designated as either first class or standard. You colleague is wrong.

There are individual doors to close off the two first class compartments, with a further door part way down to separate it from the standard class seating.

I believe this is fairly unique to the Class 321s and should not be assumed to be the same as an Intercity train.

I am sure that FCC would not even take action against someone boarding through that set of doors, then walking through to standard class. On a 317, you have no choice as FC is in the middle of the train. On neither class where FC is only part of the carriage would I consider the doors to be usable by FC ticket holders only.
 

yorkie

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Ajax103
I don't see how he reached that conclusion. The whole of the vehicle is first class not just the seating area. A little further thought will reveal all sorts of idiosyncracies in that argument..
I think there is confusion as the type of train Ajax103 is referring to (Class 321) does not have an entirely first class vehicle. They are composite vehicles that contain some FC and some SC seating. On these type of trains, the FC areas are seperated from vestibules by doors, the doors appear to indicate that you are entering FC beyond the door. However the vestibule area does not appear to be FC. On most multiple units with FC accomodation the FC area is only one side of the door, so there is far less likely to be any arguments about the vestibules. The 321s appear to be unique in having FC both sides of a vestibule.
 

Aictos

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I think there is confusion as the type of train Ajax103 is referring to (Class 321) does not have an entirely first class vehicle. They are composite vehicles that contain some FC and some SC seating. On these type of trains, the FC areas are seperated from vestibules by doors, the doors appear to indicate that you are entering FC beyond the door. However the vestibule area does not appear to be FC. On most multiple units with FC accomodation the FC area is only one side of the door, so there is far less likely to be any arguments about the vestibules. The 321s appear to be unique in having FC both sides of a vestibule.

That is indeed correct, compared with say the 319s, 365s and 377s which have the first class compartment immediately behind the cab on one side of the door which is clearly marked as first class.
 

jopsuk

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There's also the situation found on the 317/1 and 317/8, where the first class is between the two vestibules, with standard class at either end of the carriage (and implied right of passage through the first class section for anyone from beyond wishing to use the loos)
 

Old Timer

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Thanks to all. I was working on the basis of "normal" (i.e. InterCity) stock.

Obviously the case would be different where the accommodation changes mid vehicle but if the vestibule separated two first class areas then arguably that could be construed as first class accommodation if a person styaed as opposed to passing through.



Sorry but i think that is Rail Industry Bull**** of the highest degree.
presumably you would ban trolley services on any service that has standing passengers then?
Firstly it is not what I think, it is a statement of fact from experience.

The staff walk through with two pots, one with hot tea or coffee the other with milk. Movement of the train can and does sometimes throw them off-balance.

Cases of both on train restaurant car staff being burnt by hot liquids as well as passengers being burnt by carried drinks have occurred many times.

I suspect you would be the first to shout if an incident occurred where a standing passenger had a hot pot of liquid spilt over them ?

Of course you will not know about risk assessment so I will also put your abrupt response down to ignorance. VWC have obviously done them and that is their conclusion.

Trolleys, as you should know, operate differently.
 
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yorkie

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Well I know paul1609 also has experience of FC travel on Virgin. It could also be argued that, by a strict risk assessment hot drinks could be banned completely as seated passengers are not guaranteed to be safe from spillages.

But then we're back to the issue of applying common sense. A passenger standing at an end of train vestibule, or one between local stations where there is no FC at seat service isn't causing the sort of blockage that someone stood next to the kitchen on a tilting pendolino between Euston and somewhere up north is going to cause.
 

devon_metro

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---
On a related topic, a VWC TM recently announced that she was declassifying two FC coaches because by law (my emphasis) if there are standing passengers and seats available on the train she had to make them available. Is there any truth in this?

No :lol::lol::lol:
 

yorkie

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I'd doubt it's a law, but it's good customer service. However I would advise against detailing the exact service in case a manager is reading and decides it's too good customer service ;)
 

mickey

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I'd doubt it's a law, but it's good customer service. However I would advise against detailing the exact service in case a manager is reading and decides it's too good customer service ;)

...you'll notice I gave away very little information above the basics, with that very scenario in mind ;)

To clarify, the train was pretty busy, but there were enough seats in coaches K and J to accommodate all passengers with first class tickets. Coaches H and G were declassified and opened up to standing standard passengers, but there was *no* at-seat service in them (the staff simply stopped at the end of J). All FC passengers were asked to move to the rear two coaches before they were opened up so they didn't ever have to mix with commoners. The two remaining FC carriages were crammed, with few if any empty seats, but when the drinks started flowing everyone started talking to each other and all the tutting and cursing about not having 2/3/4 seats to themselves stopped. It was a Friday evening so no one was working, and in the end it was one of the nicest travelling experiences I've ever had on the railway!

And OT, there will have been no cause for 'downgrading' refunds because we got a meal, Guinness and chocolates, whereas the others only got a slightly nicer seat. I only mention it now because the TM specifically said it was the law, which I thought odd at the time and you guys here have confirmed is not true.
 

yorkie

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...you'll notice I gave away very little information above the basics, with that very scenario in mind ;)
Indeed :)
To clarify, the train was pretty busy, but there were enough seats in coaches K and J to accommodate all passengers with first class tickets. Coaches H and G were declassified and opened up to standing standard passengers, but there was *no* at-seat service in them (the staff simply stopped at the end of J). All FC passengers were asked to move to the rear two coaches before they were opened up so they didn't ever have to mix with commoners. The two remaining FC carriages were crammed, with few if any empty seats, but when the drinks started flowing everyone started talking to each other and all the tutting and cursing about not having 2/3/4 seats to themselves stopped. It was a Friday evening so no one was working, and in the end it was one of the nicest travelling experiences I've ever had on the railway!

And OT, there will have been no cause for 'downgrading' refunds because we got a meal, Guinness and chocolates, whereas the others only got a slightly nicer seat. I only mention it now because the TM specifically said it was the law, which I thought odd at the time and you guys here have confirmed is not true.
Excellent.

Declassifying one or two coaches and still having FC coaches and whatever perks are advertised still applying in those FC coaches, does not in any way invoke refunds. So everyone wins in the end!

Thanks for sharing, it's good to hear stories where it worked out well for a change!:)
 

Old Timer

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Which is all very well and fine until you dig a little deeper.

One of the benefits that you pay for in First Class is the availability of a power socket, so that a laptop can be used.

Nowadays most passengers in First Class work on their laptops, and plan their day/activities on that basis.

Unfortunately there are only two power points to each first class seating bay, so moving everybody into two vehicles will no doubt have deprived a fair number of the ability to work beyond the battery life.

So what about the passenger who has specifically booked First Class for this reason ?

He is incovenienced yet has paid far more than those who are accommodated in First having bought a much cheaper price ticket.

What about those who maybe elected to travel as a group for business reasons and now find themselves separated ?

I really cannot help feeling there is a little bit of hidden animosity here. First Class does not automatically suggest one is an autocrat or a northen mill owner living off the spoils of his disadvantaged workers.

Without First Class passengers (who actually subsidise those travelling on cheaper tickets ultimately), there would be less revenue.
 

mickey

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One of the benefits that you pay for in First Class is the availability of a power socket, so that a laptop can be used.

Nowadays most passengers in First Class work on their laptops, and plan their day/activities on that basis.

Unfortunately there are only two power points to each first class seating bay, so moving everybody into two vehicles will no doubt have deprived a fair number of the ability to work beyond the battery life.

But what about occasions where the four FC carriages are full of FC ticket holders? Presumably that possibility was envisaged when the carriages were designed, and as such power points will never be advertised as a guaranteed benefit. Furthermore, common sense could easily prevail and if necessary people could use the socket for an hour or two each to charge their batteries. However, if you read a little deeper you'll notice I explained that it was a Friday night and few if any people were working - in effect there were more than enough sockets to go around for those who wanted them.
 

Old Timer

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OK so I make a reservation requiring a socket, then I am decamped into another vehicle where someone is using the available socket - remember he probably also paid for the facility - now what ?

And even if there were a socket available it depends upon trailing a lead across the table or across someone else's body. Would you find that acceptable ? There are no doubt people on here who would not be impressed based on some of the views I have read.

Airlines protect the interests of their First and Business classes. For example I get a guaranteed seat when flying even if it means that someone else gets bumped. The difference is that the person getting bumped will be on the cheapest fare.

Hotels definitely look after their premium customers. Again a hotel will always have a room available for their premium guests, and will relocate those on a cheap deal to an alternative hotel.

Only in the Railway environment do people feel that different rules should apply
 

mickey

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OK so I make a reservation requiring a socket, then I am decamped into another vehicle where someone is using the available socket - remember he probably also paid for the facility - now what ?

And even if there were a socket available it depends upon trailing a lead across the table or across someone else's body. Would you find that acceptable ?
[...]
Only in the Railway environment do people feel that different rules should apply

Personally I don't mind if someone asks if they can put a plug into a socket near me but yes, I agree many people wouldn't. However, I've never been in a carriage in which every power socket was being used, and I think in practice all it would require would be to ask around and see if anyone would mind switching seats - I wouldn't at all mind moving if I didn't intend to use it myself. However, I repeat that on this particular service there certainly didn't seem to be anyone in that position - I don't remember seeing anyone working there!

I don't feel that different 'rules' should apply on the railway. If there had been more FC ticket holders I would definitely had objected to so many seats being declassified, but when there are four carriages going round half-empty and scores of people standing in standard vestibules I think it's right to let them sit down. In this case I think it happened exactly as it should have - and AFAIK no one was inconvenienced by it. If FC passengers want 2, 3 or 4 seats to themselves in addition to standard the extra leg room and wider seats they should pay for them!
 

jon0844

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Are power sockets so well used that they run out? I'm sure the 444 I was on recently actually had a full four sockets for four seats, but if they don't (and I'm fairly sure a lot of classes don't have one socket per passenger), how do people cope when the train is full of FC ticket holders?

Do people fight it out, or come to some sort of agreement between themselves? Eurostar trains don't all have power sockets, and even where there are - they're a mix of UK and European sockets.
 

Old Timer

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There are various configurations in Std depending upon which vehicle you are in ranging from 6 to 12 per vehicle.

In First each window seat has a power point.

There is very definitely not a power point at every seat by any standards.
 

mickey

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There are various configurations in Std depending upon which vehicle you are in ranging from 6 to 12 per vehicle.
In First each window seat has a power point.
There is very definitely not a power point at every seat by any standards.

Don't forget the ones in the vestibules for those crammed in with no seat and work to do/phones to charge...
 

mickey

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I believe those are for vacuum cleaners.

Yes, but there's nothing stopping people using them for other purposes. I've seen angry suits kicked out of reserved seats (why is it always businessmen who think they don't have to follow reservation rules and have to be sternly reprimanded by TMs?) using their laptops by toilet doors before now. It's like the 'laptops/mobile phones only' stickers: there's no way of putting a block on anything else being shoved in!
 

jon0844

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As far as I'm aware, the sockets for vacuum cleaners are not regulated, so don't be surprised if your power supply goes pop if there's any sort of surge.

I assume the ones at the tables are filtered and protected.

Yes, you do see people use the ones in the vestibules, but it's at their own risk. Some have stickers to warn people, but they're ignored.
 

Old Timer

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The Mk3's had an unregulated supply, and using them (probably still the case) meant that you could get a power surge which would fry the transformer or the electronics, hence why they were placed under the luggage racks.

Re the businessmen, yes there are some right arseholes out there but to be truthful they are not normally those who are actually in important positions.

Take for example a situation which occurred to me recently.

I was sat in my seat (a four bay) and a chap sat diagonally opposite , that way we both had leg room.

Another chap came along who knew this chap and sat in the two bay alongside.

A sort of three way conversation started up and rather than the guy having to talk across the gangway, I suggested he came and sat in the four bay alongside me, and opposite his friend. Which he duly did.

Now along comes the at-seat stewardess ( who I know). The second guy was extremely rude off-hand and abrupt, indeed unecessarily so. By comparison I was polite and pleasant to the lady.

When I broached this with him, his view was that she was no more than a "serving wench".

Journey goes on, and through a comment it became obvious that I worked in the Industry, at which point there was a noticeable change in the 2nd man's attitude to me, indeed from then on he made a pointed comment about me being in a Union, and then went on to talk about his Gold hotel loyalty card and all his "benefits". :roll:

Quite clearly the guy was as superficial as light make up, but as obnoxious and supercillious as they come. deferring only to those who were of "better station", so to speak. So the level of car was critical (he drives a Merc), the number of holidays, the slow crawl up the Corporate ladder, etc.

Back comes the stewardess later to do the refills and pointedly ignores this individual, who then makes a sarcastic comment to her. She retorts to him that he had waved her away and was both rude and ignorant and she was not prepared to be treated like something he had trodden in on the street.

She then said that she had been pleasant to me as "he is one of the regular customers and he always treats us courteously, rather than like dirt"

Queue comment from second man about "oh he is one of you", Stewardess retorts, "No Sir he is not one of US, he is a regular customer whom I know holds a senior position and travels worldwide." She then walks off.

Second man then asks if I do, and I say yes. I also have a couple of hotel loyalty cards indeed I have several which are Gold and above. I keep them in the wallet with my KLM Platinum Card. Lets se if your hotel is one of them (it wasn't).

Suddenly the **** realises I am not now what he thinks I was, and that by his own pathetic standards I am actually "above him" in the Loyalty card stakes, as well as the flyer programme :roll: :roll: :roll:

Fortunately by this time, Coventry was on the horizon where he got off without even a goodbye to me.

His friend (the first man) who had said very little up to then was somewhat apologetic, explaining that his friend was currently acting in a management position, and this he felt explained an awful lot.

I pointed out a good Manager is one who is able to bring the staff along with them, and would never treat any person as an inferior.

I have met those sort of people before, and as you say they are the ones who sit in reserved seats and make a fuss, because it is the only time they can exercise "power".

You can always tell the genuinely senior people a mile off. They are invariable polite and never act like a petulant child. It is not how they achieve their positions.
 
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Greenback

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...you'll notice I gave away very little information above the basics, with that very scenario in mind ;)

To clarify, the train was pretty busy, but there were enough seats in coaches K and J to accommodate all passengers with first class tickets. Coaches H and G were declassified and opened up to standing standard passengers, but there was *no* at-seat service in them (the staff simply stopped at the end of J). All FC passengers were asked to move to the rear two coaches before they were opened up so they didn't ever have to mix with commoners. The two remaining FC carriages were crammed, with few if any empty seats, but when the drinks started flowing everyone started talking to each other and all the tutting and cursing about not having 2/3/4 seats to themselves stopped. It was a Friday evening so no one was working, and in the end it was one of the nicest travelling experiences I've ever had on the railway!

And OT, there will have been no cause for 'downgrading' refunds because we got a meal, Guinness and chocolates, whereas the others only got a slightly nicer seat. I only mention it now because the TM specifically said it was the law, which I thought odd at the time and you guys here have confirmed is not true.

So I get on to the train, sit in coach G, set up my laptop, stash my bits and pieces away, hang up my coat and then I am asked to either pack everything up and change carriages, or stay where I am amidst an invasion by SC ticket holders? Sorry, but having paid for a premium service, if this happened to me I would have made a complaint and expected some kind of refund for what i would have considered poor service!

Not that I buy FC tickets, I;m just putting myself in the shoes of soemone who had!
 

cyclebytrain

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67.5% of first class seats have power, but unfortunately I find depressingly frequently that coach H (and I assume it must just be random chance that it always seems to e H) isn't supplying power and many people crowd into G & J. I've always considered whether that equates to refund to standard price a can of worms I don't want to open.

Old Timer, I know exactly what you mean about being polite to the staff. I never understand it when I see people being borderline rude. Saying please and thank you really costs nothing.

Anyway back on topic I think it would help enormously if when they declassify G they explicitly declassified it for passengers with Open tickets rather than what currently happens where typically I see a number of people on advances making a beeline for it (can't really blame them) but it then leaves seats showing as reserved and it just seems to go downhill from there (in my experience)
 
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