Standard Class Ticket Holders Standing In First Class Carriages.

[reacher]

HSTs leaving Paddington are being fitted with signs in first class areas telling passengers that if they are in that area INCLUDING standing in between coaches they will be charged the full first class fare for their journey. This is not new, it is just stating the railway byelaws regarding classes of accomodation.
This seems to be causing problems for some regular travellers that have got used to standing in first. This is obviously down to the guards discretion, but when it's not that busy in standard class, you're stood at eye level with a sign saying you cannot stand there if you have a standard class ticket, dont be suprised/shocked/outraged/disgusted/offended if the guard asks you to move to the correct part of the train for your journey or pay for first class travel, they're only doing their job.

 

[Aictos]

If there's seats available then why don't they just use them?

 

[Tomnick]

I know someone who, as part of a group of three, was travelling from New Street to Birmingham International for the recent Crufts exhibition. As might be expected, the train that they caught (VWC) was very crowded, but most of the punters were probably travelling no further than International. The group of three found themselves, along with a couple of chaps with lots of large luggage, in a vestibule between two (almost empty, incidentally) First Class coaches - whether that was by accident or by design (seeing that there was no room to even stand in the 'Standard' vestibules!), I don't know.

Shortly before they arrived at International, the TM came through, checked their tickets and requested that they move through to a 'Standard' vestibule - even though all could see that the first such vestibule, at the other end of the First Class coach, was 'full', and despite the fact that they'd be getting off the train in a couple of minutes! He continued to insist, so the five of them (including the two with lots of luggage) made their way through the coach (no doubt disturbing those who were probably otherwise unaware of their presence, and certainly not being disturbed by it) as far as the internal vestibule door - which they were unable to get through, due to the crowd on the other side! So they had no choice but to remain inside the saloon. Maybe the TM was 'only doing his job', but that sounds like making a 'situation' out of something that, whilst not quite correct to the letter of the byelaws, wasn't affecting anyone else (and the 'standees' were hardly benefitting greatly from standing in an (admittedly less crowded) FC vestibule as opposed from an SC one!).

Funnily enough, I hear that the TM was a little sheepish when he returned along the train a minute or so later and demanded to be let through, only to realise that - through his own design - there was no practical way for him to get through...!

 

[sprinterguy]

It's a mad little bit of legislation I think. Twice in the last six months I have had little choice but to stand in the first class vestibule on long journeys due to the trains in question already being absolutely packed. And interestingly, it was Bombardier Voyagers/ Meridians to blame each time!

The first time was when I was travelling from New Street to Newcastle on a Crosscountry Voyager. I had a seat reservation, but the train was so full that I couldn't even fight my way down the carriage to my reserved seat. I was loaded down with a lot of luggage, including a very unweildy bass guitar, and so decided the best way for me to attempt to stay out of the way was to stand in the first class vestibule (the next carriage at my end of the train) instead of cluttering up already packed aisles and standard vestibules.

The second time was quite recently, when travelling back from Leicester to Derby shortly after that Meridian dropped it's gearbox at Market Harborough: Similar conditions, with huge train delays and absolutely no space. So I once again found myself in the first class vestibule.

In the case of the Newcastle journey, I endured a standing journey of 3 and a half hours, with a large quantity of luggage that I was unable to store anywhere. I fail to see how it is possible to insist on charging a first class fare for a standing journey of over 200 miles, with only the tiny door window to see out of and just the smell of the Voyager toilets for company. That does not sound like a first class experience to me!

Nonetheless, I know that the conductors are only doing thier job and enforcing the rules, so would (grudgingly) attempt to relocate elsewhere if possible if this happens in the future, it;s not the train staff's fault. On Crosscountry services, I'm increasingly inclined to travel first class just to ensure I get a seat anyway, the standard of service level in First Class on Crosscountry not being up to scratch to persuade me otherwise (Give me Virgin or Wrexham and Shropshire FC anytime )

 

[jon0844]

I wonder what the situation is on the 321s, given that there's FC accommodation on each sides of the doors (each with their own set of doors) and as such, I believe that the area between is NOT first class.

Given my experience with well-trained RPIs this week, I'd hate to argue whether it was or wasn't deemed as first class.

I'm referring to the FCC 321s, so don't know what signs/stickers may be on other 'versions'.

 

[chrisg]

Talking of first class, does anybody understand the point of having first class sections on Souther 377 services? I emailed Southern once to ask, and was told that being able to get a seat and the antimacassar were the benefits. On the services I travel on, travelling first class wouldn't mean you've got a much better chance of getting a seat, but I saw their logic. However the implication that an antimacassar would enrich my journey in any way at all is just ludicrous.

 

[jon0844]

For the money you pay extra, I'd peel the antimacassar off and take it with you (actually, I have a load of old Wagn ones that I took on their last day) as a souvenir!

If the FC section was 2+2 and everything else was 3+2 then there would be a difference, but aren't ALL the seats in coaches 1 and 4 2+2 - even the normal seats?

Mind you, if the carpet, seat covers, wall covers and everything else was changed from some horrid shade of green then I'd pay double to sit there over standard! The only Southern interior I liked was on the 377s that were former SouthEastern trains? The ones with blue seats and orange/amber grab rails. It makes the trains look incredibly modern in comparison.

 

[royaloak]

On the HSTs leaving Paddington there are a LOT of standard class paxs who stand in the first class vestibules (inconveniencing the 1st class paxs) so they are nearest the exit at Reading, they do NOT go down the train to see if there is any room (or seats) in standard as they are only on the train for half an hour and want out at Reading as quick as possible, these signs are an excellent idea and are long over-due.

 

[chrisg]

For the money you pay extra, I'd peel the antimacassar off and take it with you (actually, I have a load of old Wagn ones that I took on their last day) as a souvenir!

If the FC section was 2+2 and everything else was 3+2 then there would be a difference, but aren't ALL the seats in coaches 1 and 4 2+2 - even the normal seats?

Mind you, if the carpet, seat covers, wall covers and everything else was changed from some horrid shade of green then I'd pay double to sit there over standard! The only Southern interior I liked was on the 377s that were former SouthEastern trains? The ones with blue seats and orange/amber grab rails. It makes the trains look incredibly modern in comparison.

I much prefer the 377s with blue seating and orange hand rails compared to the ones with horrid green seat covers - the blue seats are much softer to sit on. The layout of the carriages is also much better, with none of those annoying seats with the angled back and no arm rests.

 

[yorkie]

I think this is more of an FGW Paddington to Reading thing, for the reasons royaloak describes. The chances are the vestibules near coach A/B will be fairly empty.

In many other cases where the trains are very full and people just have to fit on wherever they can, common sense would hopefully apply.

 

[royaloak]

Yorkie, will you PLEASE stop agreeing with me, I am in the middle of my tea and I nearly choked

 

[sprinterguy]

I agree that standard class passengers standing in first class vestibules when there IS space in standard is pointless and hence can see that that could be undesirable, but sometimes when a train is ABSOLUTELY packed to the rafters, there isn't much choice.

Speaking of pointless first class accomodation, how about on the LM 350 Desiros? I can see little reason for it being there!

 

[royaloak]

And as Yorkie has said, hopefully common sense will prevail, it should do as the vast majority of the high speed TMs are pretty good.

 

[jon0844]

If a train is crush loaded due to an event, or an earlier cancelled service, you'd hope they'd relax the rules a little. But, otherwise, it sounds like a case of people being too lazy to walk along the train.

 

[Old Timer]

Something else to be considered is the fact that, as far as VWC is concerned, they operate trollies through the First Class, as well as the staff walking through with tea/coffee pots.

Standing standard class passengers can prevent this service, and create a safety risk from scalding, etc.

What has been done in the past on some services is that First Class passengers are moved and one of the First Class vehicles is declassified, however First Class passengers are paying a premium for additional seating/table space, and a less crowded environment.

 

[Edvid]

Virgin still declassify Pendolino FC in coach G when deemed necessary and have 3 coaches to spare (I was on the 1630 Birmingham NS - London service about 2 weeks ago).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On another subject, some of yesterday's off-peak East Midlands Trains services to/from London experienced additional overcrowding thanks to OHLE/train problems near Harpenden. Just as well I paid another 65p (or perhaps £2.65) to go FC beforehand (and no, it wasn't declassified).

 

[Mojo]

Shortly before they arrived at International, the TM came through, checked their tickets...

A ticket check before Coventry?! No, sorry I don't believe you

 

[theblackwatch]

And as Yorkie has said, hopefully common sense will prevail, it should do as the vast majority of the high speed TMs are pretty good.

Common sense is applied on occasions - when I travelled from Leeds to King's Cross earlier this month, my train was cancelled so everyone intending to travel on that ended up on the following service, which, before departure from Leeds, was announced as being entirely declassified due to the overcrowding. First Class passengers were still able to obtain their complimentary drinks by visiting the buffet car and producing their FC ticket, not the best for them but a good compromise I thought.

 

[Tomnick]

A ticket check before Coventry?! No, sorry I don't believe you

Wasn't there to see it myself! It does seem unusual though, especially for such a packed train. I wonder whether the chap targetted them for just that reason?

Old Timer - what you say is entirely true, of course, which is why I agree entirely with the principle of classing FC vestibules as part of FC. Given the situation that these five found themselves in though (as I say, I don't know whether it was by accident or a deliberate action, either just to physically be able to get onto the train, or to avoid delaying the train), I'd have thought the less sensible course of action would be to move them from the vestibule (where they were probably out of the way of any trollies, though I'd have thought they'd have waited until the train had thinned out a bit at International anyway) and into the FC saloon with no way through at the other end (with no chance of trollies, or the TM, getting through!)

 

[Old Timer]

A ticket check before Coventry?! No, sorry I don't believe you

Most of the TMs are quite protective about First Class, and rightly so, and many position themselves at the front at New St and walk through then to G for International.

Not so good on the return because the TMs position is in C. I am going to write to VWC to suggest it would be better as F against G, because then he is equi-distant and can look after First Class as well as Std.

 

[furryfeet]

why don't they hurry up and build the extra coaches for the pendolinos then - i.e. tackle the problem head on !

Of course they could also price 1st class so that more people ( other than nicholas winterton ) can afford it !

 

[Old Timer]

Old Timer - what you say is entirely true, of course, which is why I agree entirely with the principle of classing FC vestibules as part of FC. Given the situation that these five found themselves in though (as I say, I don't know whether it was by accident or a deliberate action, either just to physically be able to get onto the train, or to avoid delaying the train), I'd have thought the less sensible course of action would be to move them from the vestibule (where they were probably out of the way of any trollies, though I'd have thought they'd have waited until the train had thinned out a bit at International anyway) and into the FC saloon with no way through at the other end (with no chance of trollies, or the TM, getting through!)

Maybe he had not thought that bit through, or maybe he was aware that there were seats right down in A/B ?

The area between J and K would have been the best that way there is less obstruction, however I guess he felt he was doing his best in the circumstances.

 

[Tomnick]

Maybe he had not thought that bit through

That sounds like the most likely problem - even though the punters in question did point it out to him, he still insisted! Even if there were seats at the other end of SC, they'd have to fight through various crowded vestibles (and presumably the SC saloons had standees right through too), which was why they couldn't go anywhere beyond the end of the FC saloon.

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing against the principle of keeping First Class free of Standard Class passengers - I appreciate (from my travels in that class of accommodation!) the disturbance that can be caused by passengers continually passing through. I'm just pointing out the downsides of rigidly enforcing the rules when, for such a short journey, everyone would have been happier if nothing had been said.

 

[Old Timer]

Much of ther overcrowding on the Coventry Corridor comes from Centro travelcard holders. Now I recall that they used to be invalid on IC services some years back. I must admit to not knowing these days.

Anyway one way round this would be to make International a pick up and set down stop. I really dont know what VWC gain from advertising it as a stop when those who use it would be better off on the local services.

Trying to get a seat in Standard is a nightmare as those only hopping to International or Coventry will insist on travelling on the Class 1s, taking up seats mostly to the detriment of those who are travelling longer distances. You see this time and time again between New St and International / Coventry in the morning peak.

 

[yorkie]

Anyway one way round this would be to make International a pick up and set down stop. I really dont know what VWC gain from advertising it as a stop when those who use it would be better off on the local services.

ORCATS & Centro revenue

 

[Tomnick]

Can't argue with that! I'm sure an ordinary punter travelling from New St to International - especially the infrequent travellers who probably make up the majority of those travelling to a major exhibition - would probably not even know the destination of their train, let alone the operator or whether it was an IC or suburban service. In the case of the three that I spoke of, the online journey planners had listed that one (presumably as the first one connecting out of their trains from Leicester/Derby); in the case of anyone planning a journey originating from New St, I'm sure most would pick the one with the shortest journey time, again ignoring the other details! As long as there's sufficient capacity on the local services, a pick up/set down stop would seem sensible (but would probably not be popular with anyone travelling from Wolverhampton, or considering changing there onto a WC service to International!). The problem of some staff blindly enforcing rules without fully considering the circumstances and applying discretion appropriately will still continue though!

 

[Old Timer]

Rhetorical question....I know they get the revenue but at what hidden cost ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

......(but would probably not be popular with anyone travelling from Wolverhampton, or considering changing there onto a WC service to International!). The problem of some staff blindly enforcing rules without fully considering the circumstances and applying discretion appropriately will still continue though!

I am sure a work-around could be found, such as not advertising the train at New St as stopping at International

 

[OwlMan]

Old Timer
Much of ther overcrowding on the Coventry Corridor comes from Centro travelcard holders. Now I recall that they used to be invalid on IC services some years back. I must admit to not knowing these days.

Anyway one way round this would be to make International a pick up and set down stop. I really dont know what VWC gain from advertising it as a stop when those who use it would be better off on the local services.

Trying to get a seat in Standard is a nightmare as those only hopping to International or Coventry will insist on travelling on the Class 1s, taking up seats mostly to the detriment of those who are travelling longer distances. You see this time and time again between New St and International / Coventry in the morning peak.

Advantix
Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street
VIRGIN TRNSONLY ANY PERMITTED
Price Price Price
FDR £ 6.20 £ 8.30 PWM
SOR £ 4.80 £ 6.40 PWM
SDR £ 4.10 £ 5.50 PWM
FDS £ 3.50 £ 4.50 PWM
CDR £ 2.80 G1 £ 3.80 G1 PWM
SDS £ 2.30 £ 3.00 PWM

Coventry - Birmingham New Street
VIRGIN TRNSONLY ANY PERMITTED
Price Price Price

FDR £ 7.00 £ 9.30 PWM
SOR £ 5.40 £ 7.20 PWM
SDR £ 4.70 £ 6.20 PWM
FDS £ 4.30 £ 5.70 PWM
CDR £ 3.20 G1 £ 4.30 G1 PWM
SDS £ 2.90 £ 3.80 PWM

Perhaps it is because Virgin Only fares are cheaper that Network WM / LM fares.

Peter

 

[Old Timer]

I must admit to being somewhat stunned by that, but then again the issue is in the other direction and relative to WM travel card holders who of course are not buying single or return tickets.

 

[mickey]

Speaking of pointless first class accomodation, how about on the LM 350 Desiros? I can see little reason for it being there!

Funnily enough I used to think the same, but the number of people who actually use it, especially on the TV and Brum-LIV services, has convinced me otherwise. I'm now quite happy: it's small enough to be relatively unobtrusive, and the people in there are subsidising the service for me...

ORCATS & Centro revenue

Also for the airport: the frequency and speed of services, particularly the expresses, are used frequently in advertising by the tourist board and airport company.
---
On a related topic, a VWC TM recently announced that she was declassifying two FC coaches because by law (my emphasis) if there are standing passengers and seats available on the train she had to make them available. Is there any truth in this?