Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[37114]

Exactly. Hence why BYD and ADL are unlikely to carry on working together IF BYD-Wrightbus becomes a reality while ADL will be offering an NFI alternative...

There is also the small matter of if ADL do not develope an Electric chassis of their own then it will be game over for ADL as a complete vehicle producer within 10 years. New Diesel only buses probably have 5 -7 years at most, Hybrids and Gas 7-10 years before the options are Hydrogen or Electric

 

[ClydeCoaster]

There is also the small matter of if ADL do not develope an Electric chassis of their own then it will be game over for ADL as a complete vehicle producer within 10 years. New Diesel only buses probably have 5 -7 years at most, Hybrids and Gas 7-10 years before the options are Hydrogen or Electric

NFI's press statement when it acquired ADL stated "NFI’s electric vehicle (“EV”) experience will enhance ADL’s EV offering and ensure both companies drive the future of clean transportation", so they'll be using modified platforms from North America.

 

[507021]

Coach & Bus Week are claiming it's BYD.

It's Weichai.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Private Eye, which has been reporting a lot about Wright in recent issues, are saying it's BYD. And that the DUP are trying to secure a large bailout, it not going unnoticed that the owners of WrightBus are one of them.

 

[Busaholic]

Private Eye, which has been reporting a lot about Wright in recent issues, are saying it's BYD. And that the DUP are trying to secure a large bailout, it not going unnoticed that the owners of WrightBus are one of them.

Boris Johnson....DUP....Wrightbus, the perfect triangle. Bailout almost guaranteed, I'd have thought, dressed up in the usual verbiage.

 

[mbonwick]

Various business papers now reporting that Weichai are in talks over a c.£50m offer for Wrights.
Meanwhile Deloitte were instructed to approach BYD over a possible takeover.
The Wright family are also looking to sell some of the buildings they own that are leased to Wrightbus

Make of that what you will, but on the face of it a bail-out may not be needed...

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Wright family are also looking to sell some of the buildings they own that are leased to Wrightbus

The ones they got- at a massive discount from the DUP Stormont administration- for their Church?

 

[mbonwick]

The ones they got- at a massive discount from the DUP Stormont administration- for their Church?

Not sure on the history, it's the Metallix and Composites buildings on the Galgorm site.

 

[Goldfish62]

Private Eye, which has been reporting a lot about Wright in recent issues, are saying it's BYD. And that the DUP are trying to secure a large bailout, it not going unnoticed that the owners of WrightBus are one of them.

DUP launched their 2015 election manifesto at the factory.

 

[ClydeCoaster]

Weichai's made an offer of £50M according to the the Belfast Telegraph, but apparently wants to assemble vehicles using its own components, which would cut out the local suppliers to Wrightbus. In other words, does Weichai simply want to use the Ballymena site as a location to assemble it's own buses?

 

[ainsworth74]

Some off-topic posts about the Chinese Goverment and their policies started to creep in and have been deleted. If anyone wants to discuss these issues further then please do so on a new thread.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

It might just be me but the build quality of Streetlites vary from operator to operator. Take Docherty's for example, the two ex Isle of Man WF Streetlite's they've got (Y7JDS and Y77JDS) and also the two DF variant's (S77JDS and X77JDS) are actually decent buses. The IoM ones even though they are only 3 speed, certainly aren't slow.

First Glasgow's ones though are absolutely appalling...Jerky, slow rattly and just overall horrible things...

 

[CM]

It might just be me but the build quality of Streetlites vary from operator to operator. Take Docherty's for example, the two ex Isle of Man WF Streetlite's they've got (Y7JDS and Y77JDS) and also the two DF variant's (S77JDS and X77JDS) are actually decent buses. The IoM ones even though they are only 3 speed, certainly aren't slow.

First Glasgow's ones though are absolutely appalling...Jerky, slow rattly and just overall horrible things...

I remember travelling on the Door Forward demonstrator(silver one) when McGill's had it a few years ago, not long after the Streetlite was introduced and found it to be quite decent. I then travelled on one of Firsts examples expecting the same thing and it was the total oposite, a dogs dinner.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It might just be me but the build quality of Streetlites vary from operator to operator. Take Docherty's for example, the two ex Isle of Man WF Streetlite's they've got (Y7JDS and Y77JDS) and also the two DF variant's (S77JDS and X77JDS) are actually decent buses. The IoM ones even though they are only 3 speed, certainly aren't slow.

First Glasgow's ones though are absolutely appalling...Jerky, slow rattly and just overall horrible things...

Can't say I've noticed any build quality differences between operators. My observations are:

• They're a lightweight vehicle so the ride quality isn't going to be great - it's like comparing an SPD to a B10BLE
• They can be jerky and there are issues in getting the gearboxes mapped. This is something that I've seen on First's examples in the West of England where some are set up properly and can climb appreciably, whilst others are up and down the gears like a bride's nightie
  • This ignores the Rotala ones that seem to default to limp mode!
• There are some constant issues that haven't been sorted in years - the rattling of the emergency door handle and trim was evident in 2013 and is still a problem on 2018 examples

Was on a Filers (Devon) WF example recently and that did seem to be better put together. The short DFs are choppier (because of the shorter wheelbase) whilst the Maxes are often employed on inter-urban work where the lightweight nature and longer journey duration are perhaps more noticeable.

 

[507021]

It might just be me but the build quality of Streetlites vary from operator to operator. Take Docherty's for example, the two ex Isle of Man WF Streetlite's they've got (Y7JDS and Y77JDS) and also the two DF variant's (S77JDS and X77JDS) are actually decent buses. The IoM ones even though they are only 3 speed, certainly aren't slow.

First Glasgow's ones though are absolutely appalling...Jerky, slow rattly and just overall horrible things...

Personally, I thought Bus Vannin's different batches of StreetLites varied. I thought the initial batch of wheel forward examples, along with demonstrator ERZ 2028, were decent buses, whereas I wasn't very keen on the door forward examples which replaced them. They were alright I suppose, although they since been replaced by a mix of short and long Citaros.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Was on some of Stagecoach NScotland's 68 plate E200MMCs, couldn't help but notice that there wasn't a single rattle on them. Even the cab door was solid and rattle free. The only downside with them is they feel a tad gutless compared to First Aberdeen's 4 cylinder examples, although i suspect that's down to the gearbox on them being quite restricted, not to mention they're limited to 50 where as most buses these days are limited to 63MPH.

 

[goldisgood]

https://www.route-one.net/top-story/byd-denies-wrightbus-takeover-rumour/
BYD seem to have put the rumours to bed, and want to keep working with ADL.

 

[Jordan Adam]

https://www.route-one.net/top-story/byd-denies-wrightbus-takeover-rumour/
BYD seem to have put the rumours to bed, and want to keep working with ADL.

To add to that ADL have just partially updated their website to include all the BYD models along with the Enviro400SH (Smart Hybrid), Enviro400ER (Electric Range) & Enviro400FC (Fuel Cell).

 

[Robertj21a]

https://www.route-one.net/top-story/byd-denies-wrightbus-takeover-rumour/
BYD seem to have put the rumours to bed, and want to keep working with ADL.

Not surprising when they had never expressed an interest in being involved with the Wrightbus sale !
A classic 2+2=5 scenario.

 

[Bwsbro]

Some talk online are stating that wrightbus has gone bust. Can anyone confirm or deny this??

 

[F Great Eastern]

Some talk online are stating that wrightbus has gone bust. Can anyone confirm or deny this??

There's still discussions going on with interested parties and Wrightbus are still alive as of tonight.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Some talk online are stating that wrightbus has gone bust. Can anyone confirm or deny this??

Saw the post your referring to on Facebook just now, at this point it's inaccurate unless officially proven otherwise.

 

[cnjb8]

I have seen on flickr that the new MCV coaches will be named the EvoTour.
This may be incorrect but even so, just letting everyone know.

 

[DaveHarries]

There's still discussions going on with interested parties and Wrightbus are still alive as of tonight.

It also remains live as I write this (0030 BST, 31st August).

Dave

 

[scosutsut]

What's gone so wrong at Wrightbus? Did they sell them too cheap when the orders were coming in thick and fast? Did they over invest in starting to manufacturing chassis for their integrals? Were they too slow to react to the desire for lightweights?

It's seems that quality and orders were on a downward spiral for a few years really.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The WF Streetlites are decent enough buses, probably better than the Solo they came in to challenge. The problem is the DF versions, especially the longer ones, which are still lightweight buses but replaced the much better single-deckers they used to sell.

 

[jammy36]

What's gone so wrong at Wrightbus? Did they sell them too cheap when the orders were coming in thick and fast? Did they over invest in starting to manufacturing chassis for their integrals? Were they too slow to react to the desire for lightweights?

It's seems that quality and orders were on a downward spiral for a few years really.

It does seem strange doesn't it, when you consider what a (seemingly) good reputation Wrightbus had around 10 years ago. I suspect there isn't one single reason, but a combination of factors that have come together to make an imperfect storm.

On the vehicle front its worth remembering that Wrights were a relatively late-comer to the world of integral bus manufacture. Until relatively recently the core of their business was bodying other manufacturers heavyweight (or heavier-weight) chassis and this proved a very successful strategy for a while - gaining, for example, regular large orders from FirstBus on Volvo chassis.

The increasing focus from operators in driving down costs - to counter rising fuel, employment and other operating costs has seen a near wholesale move towards operating lightweight vehicles, and let's face it for the vast majority of UK bus work such lightweight vehicles are more than adequate. This was a change that happened over a relatively short period of time (compared with the timeframe over which vehicle manufacturers would write-down development costs).

This isn't something that has only affected Wrights - look at the decline in market share of chassis manufacturers such as Volvo, Scania, MAN, VDL, etc over the last five to ten years. There has been a marked shift in vehicle procurement. For those heavyweight chassis manufacturers this shift had a less critical impact - for these manufacturers the UK is but one small part of a global marketplace. That could not be said for Wrightbus whose order book was much more reliant on the UK market (as well as the Far East).

Wrightbus did react - seeing the introduction of the Streetlite, then Streetdeck (as well as other products like the StreetAir, etc), but this must have required significant investment into the business (which will take time to recoup). The cost of independently developing a new vehicle for a company like Wrightbus must have been significant. Its worth remembering that the Streetlite has only been around since 2010 (with door forward and Max varieties following in 2011/12). Compare that to their main rival ADL who have been able to refine their own midibus chassis offering over some 30 years (the original Dennis Dart being introduced in 1989, followed by the low floor Dart SLF in ?1996/7). Similarly for double deck vehicles (Streetdeck introduced in 2014 vs Trident introduced in 1997). Even smaller players like Optare already had some well-established integral products.

I think it is fair to say that Wrightbus has had some quality issues, which is not unexpected given they have a finite development resource and the need to effectively replace their main product line in a short period of time - this meant that some development issues ended up being ironed-out in service, which leads to a perception of unreliability. Unfortunately bus companies aren't going to be forgiving when it comes to placing orders - why accept such reliability issues when there are alternative manufacturers ready and willing to deliver tried and tested vehicles? Its not like the Streetlite is such a revolutionary product (unlike say the Dart or Solo when they were first introduced). I think to an extent we are seeing a similar issue with Optare's Metrodecker - what's the compelling reason to order this over an Enviro 400MMC? It might be possible to gather sales if you have an existing customer base (like Wrights did) or through competitive pricing (like MCV with their EvoSeit), but this is only going to gain short-term traction unless backed up by quality of product.

As well as developing their own products Wrights also had to develop the New Routemaster for TfL after winning a competitive tender (against stiff competition) - whilst they eventually delivered 1,000 units I suspect that Wrights had hoped for further orders beyond this. Ironically it was also ADL that was first to develop a mainstream product to capitalise on the "halo-effect" from the New Routemaster - you have to wonder about Wrightbus's management when ADL managed to get their Enviro 400 City model to market quicker that Wrightbus could with their SRM? Were Wrightbus placing too great an expectancy on further New Routemaster orders that they took their eye off the ball?

Wrights were undertaking all this new (and costly) development work against the background of an economy that was yet to fully emerge from a global recession, and more recently has faced uncertainty from Brexit, increased material costs, ever tightening regulations, etc. This came at a time when bus operators were just starting to scale back purchasing and certainly the bus operating market in the UK is a tough place to be at the moment, where only the fittest are surviving.

Wrights were briefly helped by the rush to meet DDA deadlines and the production boost from the New Routemaster, but with hindsight these were short-lived bonanzas that were perhaps papering over the cracks.

Compare this with ADL who, despite a rocky past, have gradually developed a sound business, with an established product line-up. This has enabled them to focus their growth on other markets, and have been successful in winning a number of breakthrough orders (Mexico, Berlin, Switzerland, etc) as well as winning new domestic customers and generally retaining their existing customer base.

Sorry for the waffling and somewhat speculative post - just my thoughts on why a seemingly successful business like Wrights have found themselves in the position they now face.

 

[Beemax]

Agree with all of the above, but another factor is the feast-and- famine ordering from the London franchised companies. In addition to the Borismasters, there were a lot of wright bodied Volvos put into service up until two years ago, but very little since for any manufacturer. Maybe Wrights could get a contract for mid- life refurbishment of Borismasters.

 

[cnjb8]

It does seem strange doesn't it, when you consider what a (seemingly) good reputation Wrightbus had around 10 years ago. I suspect there isn't one single reason, but a combination of factors that have come together to make an imperfect storm.

On the vehicle front its worth remembering that Wrights were a relatively late-comer to the world of integral bus manufacture. Until relatively recently the core of their business was bodying other manufacturers heavyweight (or heavier-weight) chassis and this proved a very successful strategy for a while - gaining, for example, regular large orders from FirstBus on Volvo chassis.

The increasing focus from operators in driving down costs - to counter rising fuel, employment and other operating costs has seen a near wholesale move towards operating lightweight vehicles, and let's face it for the vast majority of UK bus work such lightweight vehicles are more than adequate. This was a change that happened over a relatively short period of time (compared with the timeframe over which vehicle manufacturers would write-down development costs).

This isn't something that has only affected Wrights - look at the decline in market share of chassis manufacturers such as Volvo, Scania, MAN, VDL, etc over the last five to ten years. There has been a marked shift in vehicle procurement. For those heavyweight chassis manufacturers this shift had a less critical impact - for these manufacturers the UK is but one small part of a global marketplace. That could not be said for Wrightbus whose order book was much more reliant on the UK market (as well as the Far East).

Wrightbus did react - seeing the introduction of the Streetlite, then Streetdeck (as well as other products like the StreetAir, etc), but this must have required significant investment into the business (which will take time to recoup). The cost of independently developing a new vehicle for a company like Wrightbus must have been significant. Its worth remembering that the Streetlite has only been around since 2010 (with door forward and Max varieties following in 2011/12). Compare that to their main rival ADL who have been able to refine their own midibus chassis offering over some 30 years (the original Dennis Dart being introduced in 1989, followed by the low floor Dart SLF in ?1996/7). Similarly for double deck vehicles (Streetdeck introduced in 2014 vs Trident introduced in 1997). Even smaller players like Optare already had some well-established integral products.

I think it is fair to say that Wrightbus has had some quality issues, which is not unexpected given they have a finite development resource and the need to effectively replace their main product line in a short period of time - this meant that some development issues ended up being ironed-out in service, which leads to a perception of unreliability. Unfortunately bus companies aren't going to be forgiving when it comes to placing orders - why accept such reliability issues when there are alternative manufacturers ready and willing to deliver tried and tested vehicles? Its not like the Streetlite is such a revolutionary product (unlike say the Dart or Solo when they were first introduced). I think to an extent we are seeing a similar issue with Optare's Metrodecker - what's the compelling reason to order this over an Enviro 400MMC? It might be possible to gather sales if you have an existing customer base (like Wrights did) or through competitive pricing (like MCV with their EvoSeit), but this is only going to gain short-term traction unless backed up by quality of product.

As well as developing their own products Wrights also had to develop the New Routemaster for TfL after winning a competitive tender (against stiff competition) - whilst they eventually delivered 1,000 units I suspect that Wrights had hoped for further orders beyond this. Ironically it was also ADL that was first to develop a mainstream product to capitalise on the "halo-effect" from the New Routemaster - you have to wonder about Wrightbus's management when ADL managed to get their Enviro 400 City model to market quicker that Wrightbus could with their SRM? Were Wrightbus placing too great an expectancy on further New Routemaster orders that they took their eye off the ball?

Wrights were undertaking all this new (and costly) development work against the background of an economy that was yet to fully emerge from a global recession, and more recently has faced uncertainty from Brexit, increased material costs, ever tightening regulations, etc. This came at a time when bus operators were just starting to scale back purchasing and certainly the bus operating market in the UK is a tough place to be at the moment, where only the fittest are surviving.

Wrights were briefly helped by the rush to meet DDA deadlines and the production boost from the New Routemaster, but with hindsight these were short-lived bonanzas that were perhaps papering over the cracks.

Compare this with ADL who, despite a rocky past, have gradually developed a sound business, with an established product line-up. This has enabled them to focus their growth on other markets, and have been successful in winning a number of breakthrough orders (Mexico, Berlin, Switzerland, etc) as well as winning new domestic customers and generally retaining their existing customer base.

Sorry for the waffling and somewhat speculative post - just my thoughts on why a seemingly successful business like Wrights have found themselves in the position they now face.

You mentioned ADL being more adapted to suit current market needs (ie lightweight integral bus) and ADL taking on former Wright costumers like First. ADLs market share is large and I can only see it expanding.
My question: Will a new ADL factory be built? (might be a bit optimistic), how will ADL respond to extra demand?

 

[scosutsut]

Sorry for the waffling and somewhat speculative post - just my thoughts on why a seemingly successful business like Wrights have found themselves in the position they now face.

No waffling at all, it's a perfectly solid hypothesis!