XC and GWR train crew shortages

[Weekender]

According to this article on Somerset Live, Sunday's problems on GWR were due to strike action.



Lazy reporting or fake news?

Lazy reporting yes but totally understandable as the general public have come to expect industrial action on the railways.
Edit: the article has now been removed from their website.

 

[theironroad]

In addition, I’ve asked to be made ‘Not Available’ for a booked Sunday in 3 weeks time, I have some social plans on the Saturday night which I’d really like to attend, now just before it’s signed off by rosters; is everyone on here ok with that, first? Because I know opinion on here about what staff do in the free time is more important than my social life.

Now I can post full details about what I’m doing and who with and where and then maybe those on here can decide if I’m allowed to have that Sunday off?

Now I know, all of the above might seem over the top, it is genuine though. I hope it gives some sort of insight to the fact that you’re talking about real people with real lives, not just machines, there are some people that will be absolutely desperate to have Sunday’s off, and genuinely not want to work (sometimes). I expect the usual spiel about well why did they take a job that involved working Sundays, I have no issue with working Sundays, myself and others do our fair share of extras too, but sometimes we physically can’t (because of Hidden) or don’t want to work a Sunday be it a booked or unbooked turn.

Lol, I'm thinking of taking some rostered annual leave in October , but concerned whether it will meet with approval of some here who think I should be available at 10 minutes notice 24/7/365.

 

[dk1]

Lol, I'm thinking of taking some rostered annual leave in October , but concerned whether it will meet with approval of some here who think I should be available at 10 minutes notice 24/7/365.

Keep your phone on I know the railways date back to Victorian times but hopefully the conditions of service have improved. Well except for some of the posters on here of course.

 

[2L70]

So I shouldn’t fax my leave requests off to Rosters, i should post them on here?

 

[Mintona]

I’ve counted that of the 34 Sundays so far this year, I’ve worked 16, been not available for 12 and not been required/able to catch a turn for 6. I’m wondering if those figures are acceptable.

 

[irish_rail]

I’ve counted that of the 34 Sundays so far this year, I’ve worked 16, been not available for 12 and not been required/able to catch a turn for 6. I’m wondering if those figures are acceptable.

No. You really are lazy. Must do better.....

 

[irish_rail]

Lol, I'm thinking of taking some rostered annual leave in October , but concerned whether it will meet with approval of some here who think I should be available at 10 minutes notice 24/7/365.

I wouldn't risk it. What if Joe bloggs decides to go out and partake in some train spotting and, heaven forbid, the train got cancelled because of your selfish descion to take a day or two off? Have you thought about that????

 

[LMS 4F]

It should be remembered that a long distance XC train will have several changes of crew en route and if any one of those is absent for whatever reason then the service may fail.
In this day and age some of the views on here seem Victorian. Staff will have signed a contract and if asked to work beyond that should expect to be rewarded accordingly. However the idea that they always be prepared to work is ridiculous and often not allowed for safety reasons.
If there are not enough staff or the management want to change the contracts then they, the managers, should recruit or negotiate as needed. Given the way the railway is organised too many of the TOCs take a short term view and wish to keep costs down especially as they get towards the end of their term.

 

[GoneSouth]

So I shouldn’t fax my leave requests off to Rosters, i should post them on here?

Fax? Didn’t they die with steam

Yes, post here first please so we can all collectively scoff at your outrageous lack of work ethic and general idleness !!!

If Mr Entitled wants to go watch a Chelsea game on Sundays or have a weekend away in Bath he’ll soon let you know on here.

Enjoy your holidays. To everyone else in here, your gripe is with the DfT and whoever creates the recruitment and training decisions within the TOC and not individual crew.

 

[2L70]

Fax? Didn’t they die with steam

Yes, post here first please so we can all collectively scoff at your outrageous lack of work ethic and general idleness !!!

If Mr Entitled wants to go watch a Chelsea game on Sundays or have a weekend away in Bath he’ll soon let you know on here.

We’ve gone beyond Fantasy now...

Nobody watches Chelsea apart from Foreign Tourists

 

[infobleep]

With respect what has that go do do with anything - TOCs are supposed to deliver a train service on Sundays and are failing to do so.



Indeed - and its the job of TOC senior management to put in contracts that are fit for purpose. The current contracts clearly are not.

I felt people were moaning at the staff working the trains, rather than those to employing the staff.

 

[infobleep]

Why is the choice always between having a raft of staff sitting spare, or having rafts of cancellations, why is there no happy medium where there is just the right amount of staff?



Some people, myself included, work away from home mon-fri and commute back to place of work on Sunday night.

Good point I'd missed. Although if your travelling back on Sunday or Bank Monday, I'd be inclined to class you under people who work on Sundays or Bank Holiday Mondays, as whilst your not working, you are commuting to your place of work.

 

[Mag_seven]

I felt people were moaning at the staff working the trains, rather than those to employing the staff.

Unfortunately there are some moaning at individual staff for taking their contractual right to time off. The gripe should be with TOC senior management/DfT for allowing Sundays to be staffed effectively by volunteers allowing a shambles of a service to be offered to customers.

 

[irish_rail]

It should be remembered that a long distance XC train will have several changes of crew en route and if any one of those is absent for whatever reason then the service may fail.
In this day and age some of the views on here seem Victorian. Staff will have signed a contract and if asked to work beyond that should expect to be rewarded accordingly. However the idea that they always be prepared to work is ridiculous and often not allowed for safety reasons.
If there are not enough staff or the management want to change the contracts then they, the managers, should recruit or negotiate as needed. Given the way the railway is organised too many of the TOCs take a short term view and wish to keep costs down especially as they get towards the end of their term.

This is a very good point and emphasises why when diagramming crew it is far better to , say, diagram one driver from Plymouth to London than to have changeovers at Exeter and reading. If one link breaks the whole chain falls apart.

 

[infobleep]

This absolutely, there are no doubt many railway (and retail, restaurant, power station, hospital, etc) staff in work today who would quite like to be in a beer garden.

However, the railway is a seven day operation, enough staff should be recruited to operate the standard 7 day timetable without overtime, all new operational staff should have contracts which include 7 day working (proportionate to the number of services operated on each day, so averaged over the year, a rota may contain more weekday than weekend shifts) and a plan put in place to move existing staff to such contracts.

How about all fares rising to cover the additional staff? The more staff a train company needs the greater the rise. What do other think of this idea? I wonder which companies would have the greatest fare raises?

I think one of the issues is staffing costs. You can have more staff but they don't come for free.

Given there was due to be an additional hourly Gatwick Airport to Reading service hut it never happened, I'm surprised GWR don't have extra staff to help out. I appreciate they would need to know the route.

 

[156420]

Another scenario, a member of traincrew has 2 weeks Summer Annual Leave, in the middle of that leave falls their booked Sunday. It gets covered using the Spare/Standby job, unfortunately due to short notice sickness that day, part of their job ends up being uncovered, with delays/cancellations as a result.

I expect some on here would want them bringing off their annual leave to work, or take the next flight home to come in for their booked Sunday.

I try to avoid take blocks of leave where you lose a Sunday, wouldn’t want to lose out now!

 

[infobleep]

According to this article on Somerset Live, Sunday's problems on GWR were due to strike action.



Lazy reporting or fake news?

Lazy reporting leading to fake news perhaps?

 

[infobleep]

So I shouldn’t fax my leave requests off to Rosters, i should post them on here?

Fax is so old fashioned but still not old fashioned enough. I suggest you put them in the post. I would have suggested a telegram, as that is faster than the post but the system doesn't exist any more. Such a loss to society that. Your to do this all after consulting on here of course!

 

[Sleepy]

I know people at my depot who have worked 8 Sundays in row recently. Last Sunday people were doing 12 hour days to cover - no cancellations occurred. I wonder how many other TOC's have vacancies which they aren't bothering to fill which exaggerates this problem when more staff have 2 weeks annual leave rostered ?

 

[dk1]

I know people at my depot who have worked 8 Sundays in row recently. Last Sunday people were doing 12 hour days to cover - no cancellations occurred. I wonder how many other TOC's have vacancies which they aren't bothering to fill which exaggerates this problem when more staff have 2 weeks annual leave rostered ?

That is my record for Sundays. Eight on the bounce a couple of years ago. Our DTMs work wonders to get everybody who doesn't want to work off and crossing palms with silver for those that do and are prepared to be flexible.

 

[geoffk]

Even managers wouldn't want to come in on a day like this.

It's a balance debated again and again on this forum. Hire enough staff, massively increase costs and end up having people sitting around spare most of the time, or you have cancellations here and there along the way.

Some TOCs probably went too far in the so-called "efficiency drive" but on a weekend like this, partly for the reason you mentioned, it is always going to be a struggle.

It's not "here and there" though is it. It's happening too often in the area where I live (between Manchester and Leeds) and not just on Sundays. No recent experience of GW. I don't recall British Rail cancelling trains (except maybe in the London area) and that will be because they hired enough staff OR relied on overtime at a time when drivers were less well paid and needed the extra shifts. Railways used to be a way of life, often for several generations of the same family, Now it's just a job. Is that unfair?

 

[bb21]

It's not "here and there" though is it. It's happening too often in the area where I live (between Manchester and Leeds) and not just on Sundays. No recent experience of GW. I don't recall British Rail cancelling trains (except maybe in the London area) and that will be because they hired enough staff OR relied on overtime at a time when drivers were less well paid and needed the extra shifts. Railways used to be a way of life, often for several generations of the same family, Now it's just a job. Is that unfair?

Have a read of the third paragraph in my post, and keep up.

 

[jimm]

It's not "here and there" though is it. It's happening too often in the area where I live (between Manchester and Leeds) and not just on Sundays. No recent experience of GW. I don't recall British Rail cancelling trains (except maybe in the London area) and that will be because they hired enough staff OR relied on overtime at a time when drivers were less well paid and needed the extra shifts. Railways used to be a way of life, often for several generations of the same family, Now it's just a job. Is that unfair?

Please remember before you get all misty-eyed about BR days, that the Sunday service provided back then bore next to no relationship to what is running now.

When some routes did not have any trains at all on Sundays, or services started at lunchtime, or only ran every couple of hours, etc, the number of volunteers needed to cover Sundays was nothing like what is required to operate today's far more intensive services.

 

[Dr Day]

Equally relevant on this one - there have been some helpful responses to my genuine query on the similar Northern Sundays thread (post #389) on why new staff can't be employed on new contracts - different contracts from existing staff, which, over possibly a long time, with a degree of complexity for rostering along the way, would bring some features reflecting today's society and reduced costs of employment into the railways, such as Sundays as part of the working week and defined contribution pension schemes. The argument seems to be that neither side in the railway want an end to collective bargaining per se with an inability or unwillingness to have negotiations with two sets of people on different Ts and Cs. Unlike other industries, the TOC side of the railway at least doesn't appear able to have differential contracts ie after a specific date new contracts can be in place, with all new recruits on new contracts but existing employees have the choice to remain on their existing terms or accept the new ones.

Looks like Network Rail did make some changes to Ts and Cs on the pension front, with new recruits and existing staff having had the opportunity to sign up to new arrangements if they chose to do so, so there is some precedent within the industry for some changes to be brought in on differential terms. https://www.pensionsage.com/pa/network-rail-pension-deficit-doubles-to-1.3bn.php

But no doubt it would still cost the TOCs more in the short term even if new staff could be on different contracts and costs/disruption could be reduced over the longer term. Wonder if Williams is going to be able to come up with an answer to the perennial 'kicking the can down the road' to sort out these kinds of issues which need more than a typical franchise to make worthwhile changes.

 

[geoffk]

Please remember before you get all misty-eyed about BR days, that the Sunday service provided back then bore next to no relationship to what is running now.When some routes did not have any trains at all on Sundays, or services started at lunchtime, or only ran every couple of hours, etc, the number of volunteers needed to cover Sundays was nothing like what is required to operate today's far more intensive services.

Agreed, and levels of service on Sundays still lag behind the level of economic activity. But the increased service level means reliance on overtime is no longer a realistic option. TOCs have bid for more Sunday services without the means to deliver them. The Manchester - Stoke stopping service is still only six trains a day on a Sunday and there is a franchise commitment for an hourly service.

 

[ChrisHogan]

I don't recall British Rail cancelling trains (except maybe in the London area) and that will be because they hired enough staff OR relied on overtime at a time when drivers were less well paid and needed the extra shifts. Railways used to be a way of life, often for several generations of the same family, Now it's just a job. Is that unfair?

Monday mornings were the problem in B.R. days as staff who booked on after 00.01 to work their rest days didn't get the same enhancement as the rest of the week (can't remember the details) but we really struggled at Paddn for many years to deliver the Monday morning service. Not helped by there being an number of extra MO ECS moves to get stock into position for the morning commuter trains after long-distance weekend work. Guards were more of a problem than drivers in those days as the latter generally didn't work Rest Days. If JourneyCheck or the NRES website had been around in the 1980s, then some Mondays at Paddn would have similar to what has been experienced recently.

 

[Class83]

How about all fares rising to cover the additional staff? The more staff a train company needs the greater the rise. What do other think of this idea? I wonder which companies would have the greatest fare raises?

I think one of the issues is staffing costs. You can have more staff but they don't come for free.

Given there was due to be an additional hourly Gatwick Airport to Reading service hut it never happened, I'm surprised GWR don't have extra staff to help out. I appreciate they would need to know the route.

Presumably if a reliable service is provided on the weekend, more passengers use the service which covers additional staff costs.

Another scenario, a member of traincrew has 2 weeks Summer Annual Leave, in the middle of that leave falls their booked Sunday. It gets covered using the Spare/Standby job, unfortunately due to short notice sickness that day, part of their job ends up being uncovered, with delays/cancellations as a result.

I expect some on here would want them bringing off their annual leave to work, or take the next flight home to come in for their booked Sunday.

I try to avoid take blocks of leave where you lose a Sunday, wouldn’t want to lose out now!

Well it would be as much of a problem as them not being in on a Tuesday if there was a 7 day rota. If all staff have 5 (roughly 7 if public holidays are rolled into it) weeks annual leave, a rota would be calculated based on ~13.5% of staff not being in on any given day. So roughly for every 8 duties which need doing, the company requires 9 employees.

 

[infobleep]

Presumably if a reliable service is provided on the weekend, more passengers use the service which covers additional staff costs.

But would enough additional passengers use the service to make the it more profitable to justify it? I'm not talking here about the social-economic benefit just the benefit to the TOC and/or DfT.

 

[Tetchytyke]

According to this article on Somerset Live, Sunday's problems on GWR were due to strike action.

Lazy reporting or fake news?

It's kind of true: staff are refusing to work overtime because of ongoing disputes. And GWR are heavily briefing that it is "strike action".

As I said on the Scotrail thread, overtime is cheaper than extra staff for TOCs. Many staff want a 4 day week and no overtime, because they can plan their life better. But TOCs don't want to pay for it.

And with the way the government is deliberately trampling over goodwill, it's no wonder we have staff shortages. People won't sign up for extra if they're treated like crap.

 

[Llanigraham]

Well it would be as much of a problem as them not being in on a Tuesday if there was a 7 day rota. If all staff have 5 (roughly 7 if public holidays are rolled into it) weeks annual leave, a rota would be calculated based on ~13.5% of staff not being in on any given day. So roughly for every 8 duties which need doing, the company requires 9 employees.

,
No, because you have fair to take into account sickness, training, and numerous other things that can pull staff away from their normal jobs.