WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

[Bletchleyite]

Well Stadler make the SMILE (or EC250) and the hat is based of the flirt, bimode flirts are already in service with Greater Anglia and will be with TFW, so could Stadler make a tilting 6 or 5 car version of the SMILE and put a powerpack (or whatever they call it) in the middle.

I don't know if they have tilt tech, but I'd imagine they could do a diesel SMILE, yes. It's just an uprated FLIRT.

With FirstGroup involved, though, I can't see it being anything other than 5x26m 80x. Which won't be bad, though won't benefit from level boarding, sadly.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Interesting piece in rail magazine about tilt and the prediction that tilt tech will disappear.. goes into detail why. WC north of Preston is supposed to be cleared for 125 mph next year without tilt

 

[rdlover777]

Interesting piece in rail magazine about tilt and the prediction that tilt tech will disappear.. goes into detail why. WC north of Preston is supposed to be cleared for 125 mph next year without tilt

So, does that mean in the next, say 10-15 years, it could be the end of the Pendolinos?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

That was suggesting the pendolinos will be the last tilting trains

 

[Adrian1980uk]

In the uk that is

 

[EE Andy b1]

That was suggesting the pendolinos will be the last tilting trains

Which is what a lot of us have thought. Very expensive to maintain a Class 390 and Class 221s to be able to tilt.
They've both have got at least 15 years left in them so should be replaced naturally by future tech.

 

[pt_mad]

Interesting piece in rail magazine about tilt and the prediction that tilt tech will disappear.. goes into detail why. WC north of Preston is supposed to be cleared for 125 mph next year without tilt

Did it base that theory on HS2 definitely going ahead though? Would tilt still dissapper if HS2 cancelled and the WCML remained the main route into the future?

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not at all suggesting the new bi-modes would need to run over HS2. As you point out there will be new trains procured for that if it goes ahead.
My point is, the only logical reason why non-tilting stock would be ordered for the classic WCML is if HS2 was definitely going ahead, meaning tilt wouldn't be important after 2026 when most long distance services use HS2, where journey times will be more critical.

As you say the die is likely to have been cast on this, and in the usual way the review has come just too late to influence it.

However if non-tilting stock is ordered and HS2 is cancelled, then the HS2 classic compatible fleet won't be ordered either. There will be plenty of places where a non-tilting 125mph bi-mode or EMU could be used away from the WCML to replace the capacity that fleet would have provided.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting piece in rail magazine about tilt and the prediction that tilt tech will disappear.. goes into detail why. WC north of Preston is supposed to be cleared for 125 mph next year without tilt

Parts of it will be but nowhere near all of it. It will be very interesting to see the timings for a non-tilting 125mph unit with these speed improvements against a Pendolino.

However if the review results in cancellation of Phase 1 then the question becomes whether tilt continues south of Warrington.

 

[AndrewE]

Whether you and I consider tilt as vital to a classic WCML after HS2 will probably be different to how critical the DFT envisage tilt on the WCML once the Scottish Manchester's and Liverpool headline services use HS2. If the next generation EMUs for the WCML after a HS2, i.e. if 390 replacements aren't likely to be tilting trains in 2035 then why would 2022 trains be tilt capable if they were chosen at a time when HS2 was definitely to go ahead?

Do you mean the Scotland to Manchester and Liverpool services, or the London to Scotland, Manchester and Liverpool services? I'm not aware of any way that the former will benefit (or the Wolverhampton to Scotland services on the existing WCML, for that matter.)
And it's not obvious that any new magic electric trains are going to out-accelerate the Pendolinos to such an extent that tilting will be of no benefit.
Of course "how critical the DFT envisage tilt on the WCML [to be - once London trains can use HS2 for the London part of their journey]" invites the cynical response that of course they won't give a toss.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The example given is the 91s vs 90s on the east coast, the 110mph doesn't lose much time as they are geared to accelerate more quickly - this was applied to the pendolinos vs newer non tilt stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, does that mean in the next, say 10-15 years, it could be the end of the Pendolinos?

Assuming HS2 goes ahead, there's certainly an argument that something like a "Class 344" (gangwayed 5 car 110mph unit) would make more sense for residual WCML services which will no longer be about speed.

 

[AndrewE]

Assuming HS2 goes ahead, there's certainly an argument that something like a "Class 344" (gangwayed 5 car 110mph unit) would make more sense for residual WCML services which will no longer be about speed.

Unless you are not just travelling north from London, of course.
Please don't condemn Wolves and Crewe (and S Wales, Salop and E Midlands) passengers to "5-car 110mph units" for their journeys to Wigan, Warrington and other stations to Scotland. The Pendolinos are currently the only trains that offer this service and are ftb most of the time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you are not just travelling north from London, of course.
Please don't condemn Wolves and Crewe (and S Wales, Salop and E Midlands) passengers to "5-car 110mph units" for their journeys to Wigan, Warrington and other stations to Scotland. The Pendolinos are currently the only trains that offer this service

Currently they are, but if HS2 goes ahead (as I stated) they will not be.

 

[AndrewE]

Currently they are, but if HS2 goes ahead (as I stated) they will not be.

Hence the "provincial" prejudice against HS2 then... I haven't seen any proposals for these services yet that don't involve a downgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hence the "provincial" prejudice against HS2 then... I haven't seen any proposals for these services yet that don't involve a downgrade.

Yer wot? Crewe to stations to Scotland will be served by HS2 classic compatible units as well as whatever the legacy WCML service is. Wolves might or might not be, but Wolves is like Cov - it's a station that gets a good service because it's operationally convenient to serve it, not because it justifies it on its own.

 

[AndrewE]

Yer wot? Crewe to stations to Scotland will be served by HS2 classic compatible units as well as whatever the legacy WCML service is. Wolves might or might not be, but Wolves is like Cov - it's a station that gets a good service because it's operationally convenient to serve it, not because it justifies it on its own.

What about Brum - for connections - Wolves/Crewe/Warrington/Wigan? Granted, Euston-Scotland trains (that currently don't stop before Warrington anyway) will benefit, but we have still seen nothing to reassure anyone not travelling from or to London that they will benefit.
I support HS2 because we need the capacity on the WCML south, but I really fear that it will take away the funding and any focus on non-London journeys.
It seems that people here have already written off the need for the current journey times north of Crewe because, from London, HS2 will be quicker to get there anyway!

 

[pt_mad]

Do you mean the Scotland to Manchester and Liverpool services, or the London to Scotland, Manchester and Liverpool services? I'm not aware of any way that the former will benefit (or the Wolverhampton to Scotland services on the existing WCML, for that matter.)
And it's not obvious that any new magic electric trains are going to out-accelerate the Pendolinos to such an extent that tilting will be of no benefit.
Of course "how critical the DFT envisage tilt on the WCML [to be - once London trains can use HS2 for the London part of their journey]" invites the cynical response that of course they won't give a toss.

Yes, trains for those destinations to or from London. That seems to be what HS2 is all about.

Yer wot? Crewe to stations to Scotland will be served by HS2 classic compatible units as well as whatever the legacy WCML service is. Wolves might or might not be, but Wolves is like Cov - it's a station that gets a good service because it's operationally convenient to serve it, not because it justifies it on its own.

Quite. Same as Wikipedia suggests the calling pattern used in HS2 modelling includes Wilmslow. Presumably operationally convenient.

What about Brum - for connections - Wolves/Crewe/Warrington/Wigan? Granted, Euston-Scotland trains (that currently don't stop before Warrington anyway) will benefit, but we have still seen nothing to reassure anyone not travelling from or to London that they will benefit.
I support HS2 because we need the capacity on the WCML south, but I really fear that it will take away the funding and any focus on non-London journeys.
It seems that people here have already written off the need for the current journey times north of Crewe because, from London, HS2 will be quicker to get there anyway!

HS2 phase one does support trains originating at Birmingham Curzon Street going North via the HS2 triangle junction and onto the WCML at Armitage. There is every chance such a service would stop at Crewe and possibly other intermediate stations on the classic WCML on route.

 

[mmh]

HS2 phase one does support trains originating at Birmingham Curzon Street going North via the HS2 triangle junction and onto the WCML at Armitage. There is every chance such a service would stop at Crewe and possibly other intermediate stations on the classic WCML on route.

Why would a Birmingham Curzon Street to, say, Glasgow service be any more use than a Birmingham New Street to Glasgow service?

 

[pt_mad]

Why would a Birmingham Curzon Street to, say, Glasgow service be any more use than a Birmingham New Street to Glasgow service?

Well it would likely unclog some capacity between Birmingham and Stafford, allowing other inter regional services to run. Presumably a service from Birmingham to Glasgow via HS2 would be pretty fast once they've cleared parts of the WCML for 125 for non tilt, and considering the service would be high-speed out of Birmingham all the way to the WCML link.

Not that I was suggesting the service would be any more useful, more in reply to a point a poster made about Wolverhampton Birmingham, Crewe and Warrington etc being partly excluded due to HS2. There is no reason why they would be.

 

[The Ham]

Unless you are not just travelling north from London, of course.
Please don't condemn Wolves and Crewe (and S Wales, Salop and E Midlands) passengers to "5-car 110mph units" for their journeys to Wigan, Warrington and other stations to Scotland. The Pendolinos are currently the only trains that offer this service and are ftb most of the time.

The "344" concept takes the 444 design from SWR and makes it an OHLE train (see 350/450).

In the unmodified (SWT) layout they held 299 seats. That's lots more than the current 221's (208 seats or 144% of capacity).

Even compared to a 9 coach 390 it's ~64% of capacity and ~51% of the 11 coach version.

However, where there's sufficient demand they would be run in pairs where they would give a capacity increase over the existing 390's.

However what needs to be remembered is that such a unit would be lighter and so therefore have lower costs (I.e. track access charges). Likewise if the design principles of the Desiro City were used to ensure that maintenance tasks were as easy as possible, that would also bring those costs down too.

With such cost savings the cost of running full length trains falls, making that more likely than when compared with the current stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why would a Birmingham Curzon Street to, say, Glasgow service be any more use than a Birmingham New Street to Glasgow service?

Well it would likely unclog some capacity between Birmingham and Stafford, allowing other inter regional services to run. Presumably a service from Birmingham to Glasgow via HS2 would be pretty fast once they've cleared parts of the WCML for 125 for non tilt, and considering the service would be high-speed out of Birmingham all the way to the WCML link.
Not that I was suggesting the service would be any more useful, more in reply to a point a poster made about Wolverhampton Birmingham, Crewe and Warrington etc being partly excluded due to HS2. There is no reason why they would be.

It would be crazy to build HS2 north of Birmingham and not use it to the full, leaving more capacity on the classic routes round the West Mids.
It's exactly the same argument as for the southern WCML.
Apart from Birmingham-Scotland, it would also apply to Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool (and Leeds eventually), if they get appropriate stock.
Otherwise, it detracts from the HS2 business case which we are so eager to prove.
How long have we been grumbling about long journey times Birmingham-Manchester/Liverpool?

 

[rdlover777]

The "344" concept takes the 444 design from SWR and makes it an OHLE train (see 350/450).

In the unmodified (SWT) layout they held 299 seats. That's lots more than the current 221's (208 seats or 144% of capacity).

Even compared to a 9 coach 390 it's ~64% of capacity and ~51% of the 11 coach version.

However, where there's sufficient demand they would be run in pairs where they would give a capacity increase over the existing 390's.

However what needs to be remembered is that such a unit would be lighter and so therefore have lower costs (I.e. track access charges). Likewise if the design principles of the Desiro City were used to ensure that maintenance tasks were as easy as possible, that would also bring those costs down too.

With such cost savings the cost of running full length trains falls, making that more likely than when compared with the current stock.

Would Siemen still make a 444 based unit today, or are they more focused on the city type?

 

[pt_mad]

Would Siemen still make a 444 based unit today, or are they more focused on the city type?

Perhaps a 707 700 type hybrid with intercity interior layout?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would Siemen still make a 444 based unit today, or are they more focused on the city type?

I expect they’d just build exactly what is asked for, and no GB operator has asked them for an updated 444 layout yet.

 

[edwin_m]

I imagine any of the suppliers could provide a unit with 23m(ish) car bodies, doors at ends of each car and an end gangway. It doesn't have to be Siemens, just that they happen to have made the closest reasonably modern existing unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine any of the suppliers could provide a unit with 23m(ish) car bodies, doors at ends of each car and an end gangway. It doesn't have to be Siemens, just that they happen to have made the closest reasonably modern existing unit.

I'm sure CAF could do a 110mph version of the TPE EMUs with a Class 196 gangwayed cab on it, for instance.

 

[AndrewE]

I'm sure CAF could do a 110mph version of the TPE EMUs with a Class 196 gangwayed cab on it, for instance.

With tilt? Could it maintain the current Crewe to Carstairs class 9 WCML timings?

 

[100andthirty]

the numbers of trains required - 13 bi-modes and 10 electric - are small. It would be in no one's interests to go for a new design never built before unless they are well insulated from risk. Getting all 23 sets in service in three years and 4 months from now when the trains haven't been ordered yet is not trivial. For all those reasons I expect to see an established design with few modifications. That said, I'm just an interested observer!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With tilt?

Clearly not.

Could it maintain the current Crewe to Carstairs class 9 WCML timings?

Again clearly not, but that would be operated using HS2 stock, not these units. I think we've gone off at a tangent here regarding what stock might be needed post-HS2 for the legacy services.

For this new order pre-HS2, I would still put serious money on 5x26m Class 80x.