Suggestions for potential use of Class 365s

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/government-takes-ownership-of-class-365-fleet.189660

Send them to Northern to swap out 319s. Nicer and more reliable. Or we'll have them on the south WCML for the same purpose.

 

[DJH1971]

Send them to Northern to swap out 319s. Nicer and more reliable. Or we'll have them on the south WCML for the same purpose.

And far more use than being left to rot.

 

[Aictos]

Kind point is and I quote A DfT spokesman told RAIL: “Any train operators wanting to add capacity by utilising the trains not currently in use on the GTR network can present a business case to the Department in the normal way.”

Therefore they could be used anywhere subject to clearance for example and I'm not familiar with the routes but how much work and time would it take for the following routes to put forward a business case?

London Euston to Rugby via Northampton
Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow
London St Pancras to Corby

Until such a time that the rolling stock that has been ordered for those routes are in full passenger service.

 

[Murray J]

Guessing the DfT probably don't like their trains just sitting around unused so I'm guessing they will find a TOC to lease it too soon. Northern comes to mind first when I think about potential customers.

 

[ainsworth74]

Send them to Northern to swap out 319s. Nicer and more reliable.

Northern comes to mind first when I think about potential customers.

Hmm yes but then Northern are seemingly going to get the all the WMT 323s so is it really worth clearing the 365s on the relevant routes, training all the crews to operate them (considering Northern already have quite a big training load at the moment!) and then withdraw them anyway in a year or two? I'm not convinced that it is...

 

[hwl]

Hmm yes but then Northern are seemingly going to get the all the WMT 323s so is it really worth clearing the 365s on the relevant routes, training all the crews to operate them (considering Northern already have quite a big training load at the moment!) and then withdraw them anyway in a year or two? I'm not convinced that it is...

Agreed Northern won't be a problems area.
Delayed new stock, PRM, delayed cascades and electrification spring to mind above adding stock to relieve crowding or add new services.
47421 as pointed out the Anglia difficulties and then there is extra stock for Meridian Water shuttles given the HIF funding announced last week.

GWR looking tight for 769s by December so a few 365s to smooth things over.
EMT temporary home till 360s arrive or back fill 360s at Anglia.
SE Refit 3rd rail gear to some? to get a few more 12 car metro trains.
WM With recent suburban electrification stock thin on the ground so a few to add capacity before the new Aventra arrive.
Scotrail a few more units when electrification gets going again.

 

[59CosG95]

Agreed Northern won't be a problems area.
Delayed new stock, PRM, delayed cascades and electrification spring to mind above adding stock to relieve crowding or add new services.
47421 as pointed out the Anglia difficulties and then there is extra stock for Meridian Water shuttles given the HIF funding announced last week.

GWR looking tight for 769s by December so a few 365s to smooth things over.
EMT temporary home till 360s arrive or back fill 360s at Anglia.
SE Refit 3rd rail gear to some? to get a few more 12 car metro trains.
WM With recent suburban electrification stock thin on the ground so a few to add capacity before the new Aventra arrive.
Scotrail a few more units when electrification gets going again.

No point adding them to EMR's fleet yet - the wires don't run to Corby and won't be ready for another year & a bit!

 

[507021]

Send them to Northern to swap out 319s. Nicer and more reliable. Or we'll have them on the south WCML for the same purpose.

As much as I would like to see the 365s up north, it's been confirmed Northern's 319s are being replaced by the entire 323 fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As much as I would like to see the 365s up north, it's been confirmed Northern's 319s are being replaced by the entire 323 fleet.

Fair enough, we'll have them then

 

[hwl]

No point adding them to EMR's fleet yet - the wires don't run to Corby and won't be ready for another year & a bit!

My thinking was that Anglia are in a deep hole as regards new stock and PRM so the 360s staying for as long as possible would be helpful. While December 2020 is the nominal Corby date everything except the new feed look like being ready earlier hence 1tph with 365s earlier in 2020 would allow earlier HST removal. (Or send them to WAML for temporary 317 replacement etc. but that increases Anglia's training requirements).

I'd expect DfT eyeing up some for SouthEastern given the tender cancellation but only 001-016 were 3rd rail fitted originally so that may not be that straight forward beyond 8 for SE.

 

[ic31420]

Hmm yes but then Northern are seemingly going to get the all the WMT 323s so is it really worth clearing the 365s on the relevant routes, training all the crews to operate them (considering Northern already have quite a big training load at the moment!) and then withdraw them anyway in a year or two? I'm not convinced that it is...

According to a learned contributer to another forum there are issues with the 323s being used on the Bolton route at least. EM and track circuits mentioned on the Bolton Line and East of Victoria.

 

[TrainTube]

I think that once Corby is electrified then the MML would be a good route, they would look nice in EMR livery too.
Until then, South WCML would be ok, e.g the Northampton/Tring/Milton Keynes services. Maybe also the GEML between London and Southend.

 

[59CosG95]

I think that once Corby is electrified then the MML would be a good route, they would look nice in EMR livery too.
Until then, South WCML would be ok, e.g the Northampton/Tring/Milton Keynes services. Maybe also the GEML between London and Southend.

South WCML seems most likely, as they've been dragged along that corridor before - while clearances should all be OK in tunnels & platforms, the electromagnetic interference may be a small worry.

 

[Class 466]

Southeastern are about to face a shortage of stock (From December 2019 2 car 466s won’t be allowed to run alone and will have to be coupled to a fully PRM’d 465 in service).

This means 2 465s are required for the Sheerness Branch, another 465 for the Bromley North branch and an additional 375/3 for the Medway Valley Line.

That stock isn’t just sat around doing nothing currently so busy peak time trains will suffer as a result of that.

A few 365s would sort this out nicely (you could use them on the Tunbridge Wells services to in turn free up 465s for the metro/branches).

 

[Terry Tait]

I think that the 365s should be refitted with their current collection shoes and redeployed on southeastern, we have been short of rolling stock since the beginning of slam door stock withdrawal.

 

[Kite159]

A crayonist idea:
365s back to Great Northern
Which in turns frees up 387s which can be sent to Southern (maybe fixed Brighton main line diagrams or Reigate shuttles to keep them separate from 377s)
Which in turns frees up some 377s for South Eastern

 

[brad465]

Southeastern are about to face a shortage of stock (From December 2019 2 car 466s won’t be allowed to run alone and will have to be coupled to a fully PRM’d 465 in service).

This means 2 465s are required for the Sheerness Branch, another 465 for the Bromley North branch and an additional 375/3 for the Medway Valley Line.

That stock isn’t just sat around doing nothing currently so busy peak time trains will suffer as a result of that.

A few 365s would sort this out nicely (you could use them on the Tunbridge Wells services to in turn free up 465s for the metro/branches).

I feel like 375/3s will more likely do the Sheerness branch than 465s, although 6 car Networkers will probably still visit in the peaks. Either way stock will be lost off the wider network and I agree 365s will help relieve that, if someone is prepared to make the effort

 

[JonathanH]

A crayonist idea:
365s back to Great Northern
Which in turns frees up 387s which can be sent to Southern (maybe fixed Brighton main line diagrams or Reigate shuttles to keep them separate from 377s)
Which in turns frees up some 377s for South Eastern

No such thing as Reigate shuttles. You could self-contain the workings from Victoria to Reigate / Gatwick but no point putting 387s on them. Besides, 387s are needed on the Great Northern for their faster speed / acceleration relative to 365s. Not sure South Eastern needs 377s either.

South Eastern has the depot capacity issue.

 

[Class 466]

I feel like 375/3s will more likely do the Sheerness branch than 465s, although 6 car Networkers will probably still visit in the peaks. Either way stock will be lost off the wider network and I agree 365s will help relieve that, if someone is prepared to make the effort

It’ll be 465s there and Bromley North. There aren’t any 375/3s spare at all - 9 are used daily out of 10 units. The Medway Valley has to be 375/3 as the platforms are no longer long enough to accommodate a 4 car 465 safely.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Aren't 387s restricted to 100mph by Great Northern anyway? It seems a bit of a waste in this instance, considering their 110mph top speed would actually be useful on the ECML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are 110mph units, putting them on the south WCML replacing 319s would have even more benefit than I thought.

 

[brad465]

It’ll be 465s there and Bromley North. There aren’t any 375/3s spare at all - 9 are used daily out of 10 units. The Medway Valley has to be 375/3 as the platforms are no longer long enough to accommodate a 4 car 465 safely.

Oh right, yes I know Beltring is 3 car from experiences in a 4 car 375. My original thinking behind 375s going to Sheerness was a 465 set would take their place on the mainline, but maybe not

 

[RichJF]

365s return to SE with 3rd rail shoes fitted.
17 377/5s & the two 377/1s go back to Southern & the older 313s are retired.
Kinda fits really!

 

[Class 466]

365s return to SE for metro/outer-suburban work with 3rd rail shoes fitted.
17 377/5s & the two 377/1s return to Southern & the older stock from them is retired.
Kinda fits really!

What would SE do with a microfleet of 6 377/5s then?

 

[mister-sparky]

They can’t go back to Southeastern! They got rid of them in the mid/late 90s!

 

[NoMorePacers]

They can’t go back to Southeastern! They got rid of them in the mid/late 90s!

They got rid of them in 2004, to be more precise.

 

[Class 466]

They can’t go back to Southeastern! They got rid of them in the mid/late 90s!

If it’s conceivable to put a Diesel engine under a 319 or convert an underground train to a DMU, putting some shoes on an already DC compatible unit is hardly going to be rocket science. And given the lack of any new franchise, this along with some other stock could be what keeps it going into the early 2020s.

 

[Hadders]

The 365s are dual voltage but i’m sure I read on here some time ago that the drawings for the wiring looms required when refitting the shoes had been lost.

So while in theory the could return to 3rd rail work in practice I suspect it’s unlikely.

As others have said return them all to GN and send the 387s elsewhere. The 110mph capability of the 387s isn’t used and It would keep HM happy on her annual visit to Kings Lynn

 

[Ianno87]

The 365s are dual voltage but i’m sure I read on here some time ago that the drawings for the wiring looms required when refitting the shoes had been lost.

So while in theory the could return to 3rd rail work in practice I suspect it’s unlikely.

As others have said return them all to GN and send the 387s elsewhere. The 110mph capability of the 387s isn’t used and It would keep HM happy on her annual visit to Kings Lynn

387s (with Air Con and airline seat back tables you can actually use a laptop on) are far too popular with Cambridge/Ely folk now for the Kings Cross fasts.

Plus the loss of SDO capability will be an issue on the Fen Line (not all platforms will be extended for 8-car AIUI).

 

[cactustwirly]

Agreed Northern won't be a problems area.
Delayed new stock, PRM, delayed cascades and electrification spring to mind above adding stock to relieve crowding or add new services.
47421 as pointed out the Anglia difficulties and then there is extra stock for Meridian Water shuttles given the HIF funding announced last week.

GWR looking tight for 769s by December so a few 365s to smooth things over.
EMT temporary home till 360s arrive or back fill 360s at Anglia.
SE Refit 3rd rail gear to some? to get a few more 12 car metro trains.
WM With recent suburban electrification stock thin on the ground so a few to add capacity before the new Aventra arrive.
Scotrail a few more units when electrification gets going again.

How will 365s to GWR solve the 769 issue?
The 769s are for diesel routes