Should there be more Sail/Rail services to Ireland?

[mmh]

London to Dublin in under 2h30 would take a huge market share of the London - Dublin flow. I've no idea if a tunnel is impossible - impossible is a very strong word.

It's 300 miles from London to Dublin in a straight line. Doing that in 2h30 would be a challenge even if you could build a railway in a straight line. You can't though. Even ignoring the tunnel how do you build a high speed line across Snowdonia?

There's a reason Holyhead, the North Wales coast line and the A55 are where they are.

 

[Elwyn]

I think that's slightly strange logic. The lorries are there at the times they are because of the ferry times. If they were different, they'd be there at different times.

No that’s not correct. On the Holyhead to Dublin route the timings are designed to get overnight freight into Dublin before 7.00am (in time for early morning deliveries and avoiding the rush hour traffic). I had some dealings with the Holyhead port authorities 20 years ago and I know from speaking to the port manager that the timings were not random, they were mostly designed to meet the freight customers needs. The only exception was the Jonathan Swift which was a passenger only fast vessel and which did operate at times intended to suit passengers especially day trippers, but it was withdrawn because it ran at a loss. There's no money to be made from foot passengers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The third option would be to make flying more environmentally friendly. Airbus will be testing the first E-Fan X hybrid plane in the next year or so. It will have three traditional turbo propeller engines and one electric engine. At 70-100 seats and 275mph top speed it would be ideal for London-Dublin (and Amsterdam), using the smaller London Airports. It's a good reduction and let's not forget air travel is a tiny contributor to CO2 at 5% of UK emissions.

The fact that a plane is emitting greenhouse gases high in the atmosphere makes it especially dangerous. And frankly, making planes a bit less damaging is tinkering at the edges. We need to be taking drastic steps, and quickly.

 

[mmh]

The fact that a plane is emitting greenhouse gases high in the atmosphere makes it especially dangerous

Why is that?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Why is that?

Aircraft emit various things (including carbon dioxide), and some of these emissions trigger a series of chemical reactions and atmospheric effects - because of being up there - that have a net warming effect. The IPCC has estimated that the climate impact of aircraft is between two and four times greater than the effect you'd expect just from their "raw" carbon dioxide emissions levels alone. And don't forget that the carbon emissions per passenger-mile are higher for aircraft in the first place anyway.

 

[Chester1]

The fact that a plane is emitting greenhouse gases high in the atmosphere makes it especially dangerous. And frankly, making planes a bit less damaging is tinkering at the edges. We need to be taking drastic steps, and quickly.

A 25% reduction would not be tinkering around the edges! It's a substantial cut of the emissions gap between rail-sail and flying. The first battery powered plane will begin manufacture soon (by Eviation). 9 seats and over 700 mile range. The range would be fine for a range of major short haul routes and with time the size of battery planes will grow to a competitive level e.g. 70-100 seats. I suspect even then many enthusiasts will want more rail-sail routes! I try to use alternatives to flying when they are viable but few people do. It would be electoral suicide for a government to slash flying and there are easier options to reduce our emissions e.g. electricity generation, domestic heating, meat consumption and ground transportation.

 

[St Rollox]

Thing is even when the ferry/rail had almost no serious opposition the whole event of taking a ferry/train was a long drawn out affair time wise. I doubt that London or Glasgow to Ireland time wise has changed since 1919. In fact there was talk in times past of dining cars and sleepers.
Cattle boats have been replaced by cargo boats.
No freight no boat.
Afraid this is one battle that's completely lost.
Btw, you join a bus at Ayr for Cairnryan after getting off the train.

 

[Ianno87]

Thing is even when the ferry/rail had almost no serious opposition the whole event of taking a ferry/train was a long drawn out affair time wise. I doubt that London or Glasgow to Ireland time wise has changed since 1919. In fact there was talk in times past of dining cars and sleepers.
Cattle boats have been replaced by cargo boats.
No freight no boat.
Afraid this is one battle that's completely lost.
Btw, you join a bus at Ayr for Cairnryan after getting off the train.

The real issue is that low cost air travel has presumably increased the total amount of UK<>Ireland travel over the last 25 years, so overall numbers travelling now are far higher than when Rail Sail was king.

 

[squizzler]

The first battery powered plane will begin manufacture soon (by Eviation). 9 seats and over 700 mile range.

The trajectory of flying versus sea travel in Western countries will probably mirror during the twentieth century but in reverse, whether this is due to the decline of our nation under leaders such as Boris Johnson, or whether it is part of a managed transition to an ecological economy under Caroline Lucas. In other words planes will be for a minority elite.

 

[craigybagel]

London to Dublin in under 2h30 would take a huge market share of the London - Dublin flow. I've no idea if a tunnel is impossible - impossible is a very strong word.

I suspect

The trajectory of flying versus sea travel in Western countries will probably mirror during the twentieth century but in reverse, whether this is due to the decline of our nation under leaders such as Boris Johnson, or whether it is part of a managed transition to an ecological economy under Caroline Lucas. In other words planes will be for a minority elite.

More likely the trajectory of improvements in technology will see airplanes (and indeed, other forms of transport) continue to become more environmentally friendly.

Incidentally, I used to travel regularly on Stena Europe (the ferry Stena Line normally use between Rosslare and Fishguard) either using Rail & Sail or the Eurolines Cork - London coach service. I used this route over flying not because of environmental concerns but because I was usually traveling at the last minute and I couldn't afford air fare. This is probably a good thing, as if I was enduring the 15 hour journey to London over concern about the environment, seeing the following would have made me very depressed. Instead it always brought about a wry smile.

 

[EM2]

The only exception was the Jonathan Swift which was a passenger only fast vessel and which did operate at times intended to suit passengers especially day trippers, but it was withdrawn because it ran at a loss. There's no money to be made from foot passengers.

But there is still a fast ferry, it is just operated by a different vessel (the MV Irish Swift), although that carries vehicles, as did the Jonathan Swift.

 

[najaB]

The notion that large numbers of people are suddenly going to revert to sail/rail between Ireland and the UK is pure fantasy while low cost flights are available.
The numbers using Irish airports (especially Dublin) are growing consistently year on year.
For the vast majority of people crossing the Irish Sea, the time penalty involved using ferries and trains is too great when compared with flying.

The truth (as always) lies somewhere between the two extremes. There is some proportion of short distance travel that is always going need to be by air, but there is some proportion which could be tempted back to rail/ferry with an attractive enough offering.

As an example, I used to have to travel to Belfast on a semiregular basis. When there were direct flights from Dundee airport I used to take them, but when they were cut I had a choice between travelling to either Edinburgh or Glasgow and flying, or taking the ferry from Cairnryan.

Since my Sunday was ruined either way, I started taking the ferry out any flying back on Friday night.

On the Sunday I had a leisurely, comfortable journey with an opportunity to have a decent meal but avoid airport prices. And on the Friday speed was more of a priority to get back home.

Even though the company was paying, I have no doubt that they appreciated the fact that the ferry was often 1/3 of the cost of the flight as well.

 

[Chester1]

More likely the trajectory of improvements in technology will see airplanes (and indeed, other forms of transport) continue to become more environmentally friendly.

Incidentally, I used to travel regularly on Stena Europe (the ferry Stena Line normally use between Rosslare and Fishguard) either using Rail & Sail or the Eurolines Cork - London coach service. I used this route over flying not because of environmental concerns but because I was usually traveling at the last minute and I couldn't afford air fare. This is probably a good thing, as if I was enduring the 15 hour journey to London over concern about the environment, seeing the following would have made me very depressed. Instead it always brought about a wry smile.

I have used Irish Sea and North Sea ferries and when an overnight crossing is possible I prefer it to flying. The ferry is more environmentally friendly but as you have pointed out its not by the difference people think. The introduction of composite planes has significantly improved fuel efficiency and average carbon emissions per passenger per miles will continue to drop as older metal planes are retired and progressively lighter models are introduced. The UKs 2050 target requires nearly full decarbonisation of land transportation but only increased efficiency of air travel. I suspect many greens would be horrified by the thought that our current way of life could become sustainable because half the appeal of green politics for them, is the reordering of society on socialist lines and reversing elements of modernity that they don't like.

The truth (as always) lies somewhere between the two extremes. There is some proportion of short distance travel that is always going need to be by air, but there is some proportion which could be tempted back to rail/ferry with an attractive enough offering.

As an example, I used to have to travel to Belfast on a semiregular basis. When there were direct flights from Dundee airport I used to take them, but when they were cut I had a choice between travelling to either Edinburgh or Glasgow and flying, or taking the ferry from Cairnryan.

Since my Sunday was ruined either way, I started taking the ferry out any flying back on Friday night.

On the Sunday I had a leisurely, comfortable journey with an opportunity to have a decent meal but avoid airport prices. And on the Friday speed was more of a priority to get back home.

Even though the company was paying, I have no doubt that they appreciated the fact that the ferry was often 1/3 of the cost of the flight as well.

They are losing today because of journey time during the day and cost of cabins overnight for single passengers. I think ferry travel is at a low point and should hopefully grow in the long term but it never be more than a niche product.

 

[berneyarms]

But there is still a fast ferry, it is just operated by a different vessel (the MV Irish Swift), although that carries vehicles, as did the Jonathan Swift.

It only sails during the summer though.
Sailings are suspended for the winter months.

 

[berneyarms]

The fact that a plane is emitting greenhouse gases high in the atmosphere makes it especially dangerous. And frankly, making planes a bit less damaging is tinkering at the edges. We need to be taking drastic steps, and quickly.

The trajectory of flying versus sea travel in Western countries will probably mirror during the twentieth century but in reverse, whether this is due to the decline of our nation under leaders such as Boris Johnson, or whether it is part of a managed transition to an ecological economy under Caroline Lucas. In other words planes will be for a minority elite.

You two do realise that the only major infrastructure project under way in Ireland right now is the construction of a new runway at Dublin Airport to cope with demand, and that unlike Heathrow there is massive public support for it.

I just don’t see your vision happening anytime soon.

There are no realistically fast alternatives onto/off the island of Ireland other than air travel for the vast majority of journeys, nor are there any planned. There is zero talk of tunnels or bridges in Ireland and I think people need to realise this.

I think the focus on switching should be realistically elsewhere across Europe where there are viable alternatives to air travel rather than an island on the extremities.

I can safely agree with the earlier post suggesting that any move to restricting air travel out of Ireland by taxing it would be political suicide. It’s not going to happen anytime soon.

While I have sympathy with the climate goals (I don’t drive and I use public transport), one has to be realistic in looking at individual location circumstances. Ireland is that far removed from the rest of Europe with no fast alternatives to air travel that it does make it that more difficult to come up with alternatives.

The boat and train ain’t going to be one of them in any significant numbers anytime soon.

 

[berneyarms]

I took my last trip to Ireland by Sail Rail and it was a great experience. No slumming nights on an aerodrome bench wondering if tomorrow will be the day the trade unionists of Ryanair will bother themselves to fly for me!

As the US political/media establishment is panicking at the realisation that even the Atlantic is proving no barrier to the committed non-flier Greta, I am proud that both my modest trips to Ireland have been by sea.

You do realise that there are plenty of alternatives to Ryanair when flying to/from Ireland.

The repeated references to Ryanair here in this thread as if they’re the only option are a tad annoying.

I haven’t used that airline in 30 years and I’m a regular traveller through Dublin airport.

 

[EM2]

It only sails during the summer though.
Sailings are suspended for the winter months.

That's more due to the weather though, isn't it? The Jonathan Swift was often cancelled if it was a little choppy.

 

[berneyarms]

That's more due to the weather though, isn't it? The Jonathan Swift was often cancelled if it was a little choppy.

To be clear, the Swift is only used during the summer months.

It is not scheduled to sail at all during the winter months, with the conventional ferries being the only option.

Aside from that the Swift does indeed also get canned anytime there are rough seas, last Friday being a case in point.

 

[EM2]

To be clear, the Swift is only used during the summer months.

It is not scheduled to sail at all during the winter months, with the conventional ferries being the only option.

Aside from that the Swift does indeed also get canned anytime there are rough seas, last Friday being a case in point.

Yes, my point being that isn't the reason that it doesn't sail in the winter is because the weather is more likely to be inclement, and it would probably be cancelled more often than not?

 

[PartyOperator]

A practical alternative that would save a reasonable amount of CO2 would be flying from a closer airport. Assuming HS2 gets built to Manchester airport it'll only be an hour from central London and would use about a third less fuel than flying from Heathrow. Liverpool's airport is even closer to Dublin and at least in theory not that hard to get high-speed trains to. A shorter trip would also make electric aircraft more feasible.

 

[berneyarms]

Yes, my point being that isn't the reason that it doesn't sail in the winter is because the weather is more likely to be inclement, and it would probably be cancelled more often than not?

Well reduced demand also plays a factor. It isn’t needed.

But again that’s another reason why air travel is vital to Ireland’s economy. The only other option across the Irish Sea is a 3.5 hour ferry and subsequent train. That’s not going to be competitive.

 

[najaB]

Yes, my point being that isn't the reason that it doesn't sail in the winter is because the weather is more likely to be inclement, and it would probably be cancelled more often than not?

I suspect 60% that and 40% lower demand. Or maybe the other way around.

 

[najaB]

But again that’s another reason why air travel is vital to Ireland’s economy. The only other option across the Irish Sea is a 3.5 hour ferry and subsequent train. That’s not going to be competitive.

If it competes on time. There are other ways to compete: price, convenience (if you have to get a train to the airport anyway), comfort or journey experience come to mind.

 

[berneyarms]

If it competes on time. There are other ways to compete: price, convenience (if you have to get a train to the airport anyway), comfort or journey experience come to mind.

The numbers suggest otherwise - air travel dominates the market out of Ireland and trying to claim otherwise is a nonsense.

The sail/rail figures are derisory by comparison.

No Irish airport (aside from Farranfore in Kerry) is rail connected. But Dublin airport in particular has a vast network of coach connections from all over the island.

 

[najaB]

The numbers suggest otherwise - air travel dominates the market out of Ireland and trying to claim otherwise is a nonsense.

Nobody on this thread has said anything different. But because something is so today doesn't mean it always will be so.

 

[Ianno87]

A practical alternative that would save a reasonable amount of CO2 would be flying from a closer airport. Assuming HS2 gets built to Manchester airport it'll only be an hour from central London and would use about a third less fuel than flying from Heathrow. Liverpool's airport is even closer to Dublin and at least in theory not that hard to get high-speed trains to. A shorter trip would also make electric aircraft more feasible.

Are you making an assumption that fuel burn of an aircraft is proportional to distance? Given the heaviest/least efficient fuel burn is likely during taxi-takeoff?

 

[berneyarms]

Nobody on this thread has said anything different. But because something is so today doesn't mean it always will be so.

So the widespread Irish public support for the construction of the new runway at Dublin Airport is a figment of my imagination? That tells me otherwise.

I’m sorry but some of you need to start thinking in terms of what is involved in living on the periphery of Europe.

 

[najaB]

So the widespread Irish public support for the construction of the new runway at Dublin Airport is a figment of my imagination?

No, it's not. But how much of that support is predicated on more flights to the UK, versus more flights to the rest of the world?

 

[PartyOperator]

Are you making an assumption that fuel burn of an aircraft is proportional to distance? Given the heaviest/least efficient fuel burn is likely during taxi-takeoff?

That was using an online calculator that seems to have accounted for the extra fuel required for climbing but it's obviously pretty crude. The shorter distance does give you a lot of scope to optimise fuel consumption if the right aircraft is available.

 

[craigybagel]

I suspect 60% that and 40% lower demand. Or maybe the other way around.

I should think it's 100% about it not being profitable during winter months. The Swift relies entirely on passenger traffic, which is always going to be seasonal. You'll also have a tough job persuading those people who do travel in Winter that the ferry is an attractive option, given how often the Irish Sea is rather lumpy that time of year.