Should there be more Sail/Rail services to Ireland?

[irish_rail]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #32 originally in this thread.

In the current climate of cutting down emissions it would be nice to have one train a day direct from Paddington to fishguard connecting with a ferry to Ireland in both directions. Would of course need a decent connection at rosslare for wexford and preferably cork, as well as stations up to Dublin .

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In the current climate of cutting down emissions it would be nice to have one train a day direct from Paddington to fishguard connecting with a ferry to Ireland in both directions. Would of course need a decent connection at rosslare for wexford and preferably cork, as well as stations up to Dublin .

These things used to exist, but they were cut back due to low usage. What evidence is there that the necessary demand has returned to justify this use of resources?

 

[irish_rail]

These things used to exist, but they were cut back due to low usage. What evidence is there that the necessary demand has returned to justify this use of resources?

Low demand at present because the TOCs here and in Ireland have taken away easy connections. I believe nothing connects at rosslare anymore, and few in the South East will consider taking the boat if it involves a change of train. Those services were withdrawn 20 odd years ago, in a frankly, very different time. Environemntal impact is only going to become a bigger factor in people's journey choices over the coming years.
By offering one train a day, direct, London to fishguard, connecting with the boat then a train on the other side, and then marketing it, it is quite plausible the market could be grown . We have to cut down on short distance flights somehow.......
And you mention resources, on this side of the Irish sea it is one class 800 and crew, No doubt an extension of a padd to swansea service so not likely to break the bank.

 

[craigybagel]

Low demand at present because the TOCs here and in Ireland have taken away easy connections. I believe nothing connects at rosslare anymore, and few in the South East will consider taking the boat if it involves a change of train. Those services were withdrawn 20 odd years ago, in a frankly, very different time. Environemntal impact is only going to become a bigger factor in people's journey choices over the coming years.
By offering one train a day, direct, London to fishguard, connecting with the boat then a train on the other side, and then marketing it, it is quite plausible the market could be grown . We have to cut down on short distance flights somehow.......
And you mention resources, on this side of the Irish sea it is one class 800 and crew, No doubt an extension of a padd to swansea service so not likely to break the bank.

Too late, Ryanair have won - and boat trains aren't coming back.

Fwiw, it would add about 3 hours to a class 800s day to extend from Swansea to Fishguard, which would require filling. It would require retraining the GWR crews on the section from Whitland to Fishguard as their competencies will have long since lapsed. None of this is cheap, and the extra traffic gained over the existing option of connecting services would be negligible.

 

[higthomas]

Also to get to Dublin and thus on to most of Ireland from London, Holyhead seems the more obvious route. That of course still has fast through trains from London.

 

[irish_rail]

Also to get to Dublin and thus on to most of Ireland from London, Holyhead seems the more obvious route. That of course still has fast through trains from London.

Not everyone is going to Dublin. Cork and Wexford are easily reached from the south and there is much tourist potential in Kerry and Clare. Training one link at swansea to fishguard wouldn't break the bank, indeed GWR are pretty flush with drivers these days anyway .

 

[AlbertBeale]

Too late, Ryanair have won - and boat trains aren't coming back.

Fwiw, it would add about 3 hours to a class 800s day to extend from Swansea to Fishguard, which would require filling. It would require retraining the GWR crews on the section from Whitland to Fishguard as their competencies will have long since lapsed. None of this is cheap, and the extra traffic gained over the existing option of connecting services would be negligible.

If Ryanair - or indeed any airline - have won, then we've all lost. If the planet is to be still viable for our species in a generation's time, then most air journeys within Europe will have had to be replaced by rail-boat journeys. So it's best we prepare for that and get used to it now.

There are lots of connections easy to re-establish. Eg Ostend has an excellent integrated port and railway station (and bus/tram station) ... but just no passenger boats now. Rosslare, as discussed here, could have its train service to Cork etc put back.

Hook of Holland is coming back online for trains imminently, and - on that route - on this side Harwich is an integrated interchange.

Less pessimism/fatalism please...

 

[berneyarms]

Low demand at present because the TOCs here and in Ireland have taken away easy connections. I believe nothing connects at rosslare anymore, and few in the South East will consider taking the boat if it involves a change of train. Those services were withdrawn 20 odd years ago, in a frankly, very different time. Environemntal impact is only going to become a bigger factor in people's journey choices over the coming years.
By offering one train a day, direct, London to fishguard, connecting with the boat then a train on the other side, and then marketing it, it is quite plausible the market could be grown . We have to cut down on short distance flights somehow.......
And you mention resources, on this side of the Irish sea it is one class 800 and crew, No doubt an extension of a padd to swansea service so not likely to break the bank.

That statement in bold is completely wrong - you should really check your facts before making a statement like that - especially considering your username!!

Stena changed the Rosslare-Fishguard timetable in May 2018, and since then three out of the four Stena sailings into and out of Rosslare have Iarnród Éireann rail connections along the East Coast. The exception is the morning service from Rosslare (08:00).

 

[berneyarms]

Not everyone is going to Dublin. Cork and Wexford are easily reached from the south and there is much tourist potential in Kerry and Clare. Training one link at swansea to fishguard wouldn't break the bank, indeed GWR are pretty flush with drivers these days anyway .

The notion that large numbers of people are suddenly going to revert to sail/rail between Ireland and the UK is pure fantasy while low cost flights are available.
The numbers using Irish airports (especially Dublin) are growing consistently year on year.
For the vast majority of people crossing the Irish Sea, the time penalty involved using ferries and trains is too great when compared with flying.

If Ryanair - or indeed any airline - have won, then we've all lost. If the planet is to be still viable for our species in a generation's time, then most air journeys within Europe will have had to be replaced by rail-boat journeys. So it's best we prepare for that and get used to it now.

There are lots of connections easy to re-establish. Eg Ostend has an excellent integrated port and railway station (and bus/tram station) ... but just no passenger boats now. Rosslare, as discussed here, could have its train service to Cork etc put back.

Hook of Holland is coming back online for trains imminently, and - on that route - on this side Harwich is an integrated interchange.

Less pessimism/fatalism please...

With all due respect I've not seen any indication that people are switching as you suggest across the Irish Sea. Sail/Rail numbers are tiny.

There are no plans whatsoever to reopen Rosslare Strand-Waterford, in fact quite the opposite. Until the Rosslare-Waterford line's closure, Rosslare-Cork required people to go via Limerick Junction in the past - not exactly a direct route.

At the same time Dublin Airport is currently building a second runway to cope with the increasing levels of demand.

As an island nation on the extreme of Europe, Ireland needs the connectivity that air travel offers. The notion that we're all going to suddenly switch to rail/sea is farcical I am afraid.

That's being realistic, rather than pessimistic.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Rosslare, as discussed here, could have its train service to Cork etc

I think you need to look at the Irish Rail network map as Rosslare to Cork is far from easy by train, but is just over an hour by air from most UK airports. And flights are a fraction of the rail/boat cost

 

[deltic]

In the current climate of cutting down emissions it would be nice to have one train a day direct from Paddington to fishguard connecting with a ferry to Ireland in both directions. Would of course need a decent connection at rosslare for wexford and preferably cork, as well as stations up to Dublin .

I would be interested to see comparisons of emissions between flying and going by sea - the latter is not exactly a green option - not helped by diesel trains on both sides of the Irish Sea

 

[AlbertBeale]

The notion that large numbers of people are suddenly going to revert to sail/rail between Ireland and the UK is pure fantasy while low cost flights are available.
The numbers using Irish airports (especially Dublin) are growing consistently year on year.
For the vast majority of people crossing the Irish Sea, the time penalty involved using ferries and trains is too great when compared with flying.


With all due respect I've not seen any indication that people are switching as you suggest across the Irish Sea. Sail/Rail numbers are tiny.

There are no plans whatsoever to reopen Rosslare Strand-Waterford, in fact quite the opposite. Until the Rosslare-Waterford line's closure, Rosslare-Cork required people to go via Limerick Junction in the past - not exactly a direct route.

At the same time Dublin Airport is currently building a second runway to cope with the increasing levels of demand.

As an island nation on the extreme of Europe, Ireland needs the connectivity that air travel offers. The notion that we're all going to suddenly switch to rail/sea is farcical I am afraid.

That's being realistic, rather than pessimistic.

No - that's being pessimistic - for the future of our planet. If people continue to be selfish enough to keep flying at the rate they do, either the rest of us accept that we have no future, or we decide we want a future and do our best to stop them. Just accepting people's selfishness isn't realism; to not believe that people can behave responsibly is indeed pessimistic.

As to "I've not seen any indication that people are switching" - I wasn't suggesting that they were, but that they absolutely have to. And with better rail connections, and with planes paying their real costs rather than being subsidised, it'll be easier to get people to behave responsibly. But at the end of the day there's no choice.

 

[berneyarms]

No - that's being pessimistic - for the future of our planet. If people continue to be selfish enough to keep flying at the rate they do, either the rest of us accept that we have no future, or we decide we want a future and do our best to stop them. Just accepting people's selfishness isn't realism; to not believe that people can behave responsibly is indeed pessimistic.

As to "I've not seen any indication that people are switching" - I wasn't suggesting that they were, but that they absolutely have to. And with better rail connections, and with planes paying their real costs rather than being subsidised, it'll be easier to get people to behave responsibly. But at the end of the day there's no choice.

Ah yes, lots of broad generalisations with no idea of the specifics of travel within, as well as to and from Ireland.

As I already pointed out to you, being out on a limb does not lend itself easily to using rail and sea options, which are in general prohibitively lengthy, nor in fact are the emissions than much better using the latter - if anything they are worse.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Ah yes, lots of broad generalisations with no idea of the specifics of travel within, as well as to and from Ireland.

Yes, since I was making a general point (albeit in the context of a thread about a specific example of the general principle) - the general point being that switching away from flying as absolutely essential, and that serious improvements being put into all the alternatives is one way of making that easier. I accept that some alternatives will continue to be not very convenient; but then living on an unsustainable planet isn't convenient either ... for any of us, not just for those choosing to travel long distances.

 

[berneyarms]

Yes, since I was making a general point (albeit in the context of a thread about a specific example of the general principle) - the general point being that switching away from flying as absolutely essential, and that serious improvements being put into all the alternatives is one way of making that easier. I accept that some alternatives will continue to be not very convenient; but then living on an unsustainable planet isn't convenient either ... for any of us, not just for those choosing to travel long distances.

With all due respect - I am dealing with the specifics of travel to and from Ireland which is what this thread is about.

I just do not see Irish Sea sail/rail passenger numbers returning to their pre-1980s levels anytime in the future.

 

[AlbertBeale]

With all due respect - I am dealing with the specifics of travel to and from Ireland which is what this thread is about.

I just do not see Irish Sea sail/rail passenger numbers returning to their pre-1980s levels anytime in the future.

Fair enough - I apologise that I didn't restrict myself to addressing my points precisely to the topic of this thread [though I do plan to use that route if I visit a friend in Cork sometime]. I was taking the opportunity to make some general points about journeys of this type. (Though threads here do seem to wander quite a bit...)

 

[irish_rail]

Plenty of people are quite prepared for a slower journey if it is more environmentally friendly , and there are plenty of people that just hate flying and the whole awful "ryanair" experience. Tourists and older people especially could be tempted onto a decent direct train service connecting with boats. Many people would do it for the experience. I'm talking about one train a day connecting with a ferry at fishguard, not dozens.
We cannot continue to sleep walk into flying everywhere and anywhere just because we can.

 

[berneyarms]

Plenty of people are quite prepared for a slower journey if it is more environmentally friendly , and there are plenty of people that just hate flying and the whole awful "ryanair" experience. Tourists and older people especially could be tempted onto a decent direct train service connecting with boats. Many people would do it for the experience. I'm talking about one train a day connecting with a ferry at fishguard, not dozens.
We cannot continue to sleep walk into flying everywhere and anywhere just because we can.

Mercifully we can choose airlines apart
from just Ryanair to get to and from Ireland. And as I’ve pointed out, Dublin Airport is currently adding another runway to cope with demand.

At Holyhead there are direct rail connections to and from London and Manchester and let’s be honest, the numbers using them are derisory.

I see the passengers getting off the bus in Dublin city centre most evenings off the ferry and it is rarely in double figures.

You’re kidding yourself that suddenly people are going to switch modes in large numbers.

 

[Spartacus]

Wonder if the poster might have been going to Pembroke Dock anyway

For us one of the big bonuses about using the ferry is we can take our own car on, and don’t have to worry about carting half a dozen bags and two kids around, that’s lost for travelling by rail, you really need to be travelling light and from what I’ve seen travelling between SW Wales and Ireland few are doing that.

 

[irish_rail]

Mercifully we can choose airlines apart
from just Ryanair to get to and from Ireland. And as I’ve pointed out, Dublin Airport is currently adding another runway to cope with demand.

At Holyhead there are direct rail connections to and from London and Manchester and let’s be honest, the numbers using them are derisory.

I see the passengers getting off the bus in Dublin city centre most evenings off the ferry and it is rarely in double figures.

You’re kidding yourself that suddenly people are going to switch modes in large numbers.

Most people don't use that bus from the port to the city centre. Most people either get a lift or a taxi.

 

[irish_rail]

Wonder if the poster might have been going to Pembroke Dock anyway

For us one of the big bonuses about using the ferry is we can take our own car on, and don’t have to worry about carting half a dozen bags and two kids around, that’s lost for travelling by rail, you really need to be travelling light and from what I’ve seen travelling between SW Wales and Ireland few are doing that.

Yes and this is why I'm suggesting running a train direct from London to bring in tourists and Irish alike . Far more potential in the South East for travel to Ireland than in South West Wales as you say.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is a 7/8 hour journey via Rail/sea ever going to tempt people away from a 1/2 hour flight in any case?

I'm a non swimmer who hates boats so wouldn't consider it under any circumstances

 

[cactustwirly]

In the current climate of cutting down emissions it would be nice to have one train a day direct from Paddington to fishguard connecting with a ferry to Ireland in both directions. Would of course need a decent connection at rosslare for wexford and preferably cork, as well as stations up to Dublin .

There's already a service to Pembroke for the Rosslare ferry, and only a small handful use the service for the ferry.

 

[Spartacus]

Yes and this is why I'm suggesting running a train direct from London to bring in tourists and Irish alike . Far more potential in the South East for travel to Ireland than in South West Wales as you say.

Are you suggesting the return of carriages on board the ferry, otherwise you're still left with a big transhpment issue.

Regardless, a big problem with running longer distance services to ferries is that even if you can find numbers to make it worthwhile, the further the train goes the bigger the chance of it being delayed and passengers missing the boat. Anyway, I think we're firmly in speculation territory now.

 

[berneyarms]

Most people don't use that bus from the port to the city centre. Most people either get a lift or a taxi.

The numbers are still tiny no matter what way you try and dress it up.

 

[irish_rail]

Well whether we all like it or not there will be much increased scrutiny over the coming years on the abundance of short haul flights and something has to give at some point. Without trialling a London service and attempting to market it how are we ever going to know? Things can not continue as they are forever.

 

[irish_rail]

The numbers are still tiny no matter what way you try and dress it up.

Whenever I get the holyhead dublin boat there are usually at least 30 or 40 people coming off the train at holyheqd for the boat. I'm not saying a London fishguard train would make massive profits, but as an extension of a London to swansea service I'm not convinced it would make huge losses either, particularly if properly promoted.

 

[Glenn1969]

I disagree unless and until high speed rail makes journey times comparable

 

[berneyarms]

Is a 7/8 hour journey via Rail/sea ever going to tempt people away from a 1/2 hour flight in any case?

I'm a non swimmer who hates boats so wouldn't consider it under any circumstances

I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

I left my home in Dublin this morning and four hours later I’m in Doncaster station.

If I’d used the ship it would take me another 6.5 hours, and I’d have to have left earlier.

It’s poppycock to think people are going to do that in any numbers crossing the Irish Sea. It would be like returning to the dark ages.

 

[berneyarms]

Whenever I get the holyhead dublin boat there are usually at least 30 or 40 people coming off the train at holyheqd for the boat. I'm not saying a London fishguard train would make massive profits, but as an extension of a London to swansea service I'm not convinced it would make huge losses either, particularly if properly promoted.

30/40 people on a handful of sailings versus how many people flying from Ireland?

You need a sense of perspective here.